Conversation 131-013

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Hello.

Mr. President.

How would you like to be the Democratic National Chairman these days?

That's about as close to Harry Carey as anybody would like to come, I would believe.

You know, that vote in Michigan, John, is almost unbelievable.

And it certainly knocks down the idea that some of our people, I mean, not any that are at the top, but some of the little boys down in the woodwork, domestic counsel and the rest of it,

have that, well, busing really cuts both ways and all that, and we shouldn't really make it an issue.

Good God, I mean, he gets 51%, and busing was the issue, wasn't it?

It was indeed, and you saw Humphrey's Pope, even with the labor organization.

I have come to the conclusion that busing is now symbolic for all of those issues, whether it be the housing patterns or the kids in the ghetto or the blacks or whatever it is.

That has become a symbolic issue for the whole racial problem.

And, of course, old George Wallace was...

enunciating it as such.

He just used the phrases that put it in that context.

Sure did, sure did.

It certainly presents a different ballgame for us, doesn't it?

Well, frankly, there's not a damn thing we can do about it, so that's that.

No, the make-or-break picture is going to be California.

Yeah, suppose McGovern wins that.

If he wins that, I'm sure that he's going to get enough out of New York to go to the convention with between 1,200 and 1,300 delegates, and I can't believe that there aren't enough muskie, uncommitted, and others where he can't broker that thing.

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the case.

And I think by then he will have had the sufficient bit in his teeth where Teddy couldn't take it away from him if he wanted to.

It seems to me that if he gets California, that his own people, not just he, but his people would not want to go leave him.

I believe that to be true.

And he has really done a fantastic job in some of these district and county and precinct caucuses.

I understand.

He's picking up the delegates like we did in 68, isn't he?

Absolutely the case.

And he's even rolling such people as Scoop Jackson in Washington and picking up some of the delegates out there, probably a third or so in Texas, places where you'd never think he'd ever get off the ground.

Mm-hmm.

The left is roaring.

It is indeed, and of course the dismal performance of Hubert.

That surprised me.

I thought this thing of Wallace's would really nominate Hubert.

That was my feeling yesterday, and I guess I just did wrong.

Well, when you look at Michigan, the showing there with the organized labor support,

i mean the heads of the unions and then go to maryland where he had uh the complete democrat political structure behind him uh that birch the attorney general was the campaign manager and all of the mandel people behind the scenes were working for him with the troops in a state of that size if you can't get a bigger vote out than that why he's pretty dead with the the rank and file uninstructed voter

Yeah.

You know, I'm just thinking of one thing that's on Bliss.

Is that all set now?

Is he...

Yes, sir.

He's in great style.

Yeah.

Incidentally, on that committee, as you know, we have to sort of give him lip service there, but the best thing to do with the committee is to abolish it.

I would agree with it.

God, it's...

I would agree with it.

Ray is... That's his soft spot.

I know, I know.

And...

And as long as we talk about the second term and the future, we're the hell with it.

That's right.

Promise him anything.

Sure.

Oh, he's in great style, and he was quite thrilled with the meeting yesterday.

And I got Ron Ziegler to agree to leak out the story to the Ohio Papers that he had met with you and that he was going to become a consultant to me.

Great.

And we'll keep it low key and at the same time give him what he needs back home with his people and the Ohio picture is well solidified as a matter of fact.

So he'll just be another eye out there watching the store for us and bringing in the money that he does better than anybody else out there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

if he's a no-pro, and particularly if you get those young guys working with him or something.

Well, we've really got a good one out there.

He's one of the best I've found, and he's demonstrated by that Montgomery County where Dayton is, where he's carried that city and county against the Democrat registration and done it by organization, and that's what we need.

Sure, the truth.

You know, the

One thing just to put in your earpiece that you're talking about, this malarkey to the extent, to the effect that we live in an age of violence and so forth, in which they, of course, blame on the war.

I suppose your memory's long enough.

You don't have to go back to TR and McKinley.

But you remember when they shot Roosevelt and shot at him and killed... Mack.

Yeah, Sir Mack.

Remember that one?

Harry Truman.

Harry Truman and shot up the House of Representatives?

Yes, indeed.

So it's just malarkey.

We just had nuts with us all the time.

There are nuts, period, and that's the cost for a free country.

And these boys are not taking the opposition, not taking this far down the road because they know what the conditions were in 67 and 8 compared to what they are now.

That's when you really had violence, when they were tearing up the cities.

And also another thing they're doing here, I thought Wallace brought some of this on himself.

I got these

irrational attacks on him by the likes of Humphrey and Muskie and McGovern didn't help a bit, did they?

Not in the slightest.

I'm not quite sure what was the reason for this character from Milwaukee having carried out what he did carry out.

I don't think he was a Wallace man.

I'm just that suspicious.

It just doesn't sound like it.

I agree with that because...

He was just, he's wearing those buttons and this was a fix.

I think that's probably correct.

I hope that the Bureau can get back into that background and find out something about him.

Yeah.

Hopefully so.

Because he doesn't look like he's smart enough to have been able to hide his tracks.

Yeah, yeah.

That's right.

Now one thing, assuming that we still get off Saturday, is that Mitchell proved right on was, remember, and if it was so, did Connelly?

You know, it was just eight, nine days ago when we made this decision, and you said that you didn't think they would cancel the summit.

I was quite convinced of it.

And I gather you were, but we're leaving your options open.

No.

Well, I tell you, I was very relaxed about it in the sense that I knew there was nothing else to do.

And I said, well, it's very interesting to talk about this, but I said,

The way I got to it was that I said, I am making a decision on the assumption that they will.

So don't tell me whether they may or they may not.

I don't give a damn.

Because I've got to make it.

Because I said, assuming that they will, above everything else, we cannot lose in Vietnam.

I said, Vietnam is more important than going to Moscow.

And so let's just understand that once and for all.

So that was, you see, the thing that...

That was the overriding issue with me.

I have a very distinct recollection of talking to you that Saturday night, how logical and inevitable you found that decision to make.

Oh, yes.

There was just really no other option, and it seemed to come easy.

Yeah, yeah.

I knew the heat we'd take, but I knew it had to be done.

Oh, I don't mean to...

Turn that part off.

Yeah, absolutely.

From the very beginning, the easiest thing was just to bug out.

Yeah, we could have done that long ago.

You had many opportunities to do that.

That's right.

But it seems to be coming along according to your expectations, doesn't it?

Well, as a matter of fact, John, they're doing pretty well.

The most important things that have happened, in my view, is that it's had a

Well, first, it's had a damn good effect on the morale of this country.

You know, we really, our people, I don't know what your people tell you, but the speakers and other things say that they're getting a very, very good reception.

All the way through.

One of the things that delighted me was the ability to turn this organization's troops on with enthusiasm to get at this thing.

And, you know, normally you start having people bitching about, well, this is going to hurt this or this is going to hurt that, but there was great enthusiasm in turning to and getting those letters and telegrams and press and talk shows and all the rest of those things we did.

Great.

I know that was a

The other thing is that it's had, and this has been critical, it's turned around the morale of the South Vietnamese forces and their people.

They were really on the skids at the time we moved.

That has to be true, and of course it must have had the opposite effect on the enemy.

That's the third thing.

The North Vietnamese have given a shock.

They didn't expect even the bombing we first did around Hanoi.

And this just has unbelievably...

struck terror into their hearts because they know that this means we've crossed the line and that they've got no choice.

They've got to deal with this eventually.

It's basically after the first mouthings silenced your critics too, your Democrat critics.

Yeah, they're just petrified that the United States might come out of the right, aren't they?

That's just about the point.

Sons of bitches are just that bad.

they are they have a they have an absolute case of self-destruction on the subject matter because they know it's the only way they can get at you that's right that's right and also they know they know they got us into the trouble too yep they're concerned and they're just petrified that we bring it off you you bring them out and then it's a double whammy for them right well they uh the uh the battlefield situation out there has been pretty good in the last three four days we have uh

We expect they'll take another crack at Khantoun, but as I told Henry, let them take Khantoun.

I'm not concerned.

I don't think the American people want to worry about whether they take something.

Because particularly in light of the fact that the

The South Vietnamese have been making some moves themselves.

Don't you think that balances out a bit?

It has balanced out.

The recapture of Bastogne and the airborne attack up the way has all been quite a surprise to them.

And they've also held an ad lock, too.

Yep.

Which is unbelievable.

Which is really the place that matters.

Hell, I don't think anybody can

ever heard of Khantoum or know where it is or could care less.

It's just another crossroads.

And actually, it doesn't mean a damn thing as far as the logistics of the country.

No.

We're going to, and of course, the real thing, John, is that the whole blockade thing is working.

You know, by reason of the fact that Sheenockville and Cambodia is cut off, which was not the case in 68, by reason of the fact that we're

totally cut off the stuff from sea, and finally got some airplanes and bombs that can knock out bridges.

By golly, they're in trouble.

Now, it'll pay off.

It'll take two or three months, but in two or three months, they are going to have to be looking places for oil.

Mr. President, I think it's going to have an impact before then.

Do you?

Yes, sir, and I have been distressed that these damn people in the military establishment...

haven't been agreeable to say so, because what they're doing is covering up for the fact that it was never done before.

I guess that's right.

They don't want to, because they recommend it against it, and the CIA is the same.

Those bastards, you know, said, oh, it wouldn't work.

Well, the point is, it might not have worked before.

It was a different kind of a war.

This is a mechanized war, not a guerrilla war now.

And let's face it, if we hadn't done Cambodia, this wouldn't work either.

That's absolutely correct.

And you just can't be firing 1,500, 1,600 rounds of artillery shells into a coconut plantation every day without getting them down there.

And your petrol is the same thing and everything else that goes with it.

This is logistically an entirely different operation than I've ever had before.

I'm not concerned so much that the military will wheel around and let the columns be written.

They're going to be red-faced as hell.

That's the main thing.

If it comes out, which it will.

Well, it will.

It will in the end.

I mean, it's just a question of time, that's all.

I have no question about that.

It's a question of time, because, by gosh, if we have to level a place, we're going to see that this one comes out all right.

Well, okay, John.

Well, if I don't...

If I don't talk to you beforehand, bon voyage.

Yeah, well, we keep up the good work.

We'll stay with it.

Appreciate it.

Give my best to all the people and staff over there.

I will indeed.

Bye-bye.

Bye.