Conversation 135-006

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Hello.

Mr. President.

Yeah.

Mr. Coulson for you.

Go ahead, please.

Good morning, Mr. President.

Well, anything new before I settle down to finish my press things?

Well, there's been a good bit of political activity in the last 24 hours since we talked, at least.

The Democrats had quite a day yesterday.

Have you seen this morning's news summary?

Well, I read the paper up here, but I didn't see the summary.

I'm not going to bother with it today.

See, I don't get into that in the press conference anyway.

No.

Well, if you read the Washington Post, it bears no resemblance to the network's last night.

Oh, I see.

Give me a rundown, briefly.

Sure.

NBC and CBS just...

I've never seen a more vicious job of cutting into the Democrats.

The House Democratic Caucus voted 150 to...

to oppose any new rules, any more reforms, with the feeling on the Democrats' part that the reforms were hurting the Democratic Party.

That's, of course, because only 18 members of Congress are going down there.

And CBS and NBC had just some fantastic film footage.

I've just had a rerun because it's so good.

On the Democrats coming out of the caucus.

Wayne Hayes said, he said, I'm willing to run on a platform that calls for sweat, blood, and tears, but not one that calls for sex, dope, and queers.

Jesus.

That quote, I hope we get around.

Oh, Jesus, we will.

Everybody's talking about it, because NBC had him on in Living Color, and then all the network feeds carried it out.

And then they had Anunzio come on, who, of course, is Daily's man, and he said...

I don't give a damn what the, what Bella Rabzug and all these other people say, and you can quote me on that.

The Democratic Party is driving out the ethnics, driving out the farmers, driving out the people that have made the Democratic Party what it is.

He was impassioned, shouting at what's going on with the McGovernites.

And then they came on and both of them said, well, the whole Democratic Party will

All the Democratic members of Congress are being advised to run by themselves and to avoid McGovern because his coattails will be a certain defeat.

And the courtroom talk, this was all on the Nets last night.

eight minutes of this on NBC and about four minutes of it on CBS.

Hell of an impact, Mr. President.

That's the kind of thing that's really tough.

Well, I must say, you're right, though.

Neither the Post nor the Times could you find out.

Well, the Times a little, but the Post, I didn't see any of that.

Well, Bob and I were talking this morning, and we said, isn't it amusing?

If anybody read the Washington Post, they would think everything was sweetness and light.

And if they watched television, they would think the Democratic Party was being hemorrhaged right up the middle.

And Bob agree?

Oh, yeah, completely.

Bob made the point.

He said, you know, you watch TV and you...

Listen, I don't think we should get too obsessed with the Post, though.

I think the thing to do is to have John Eisenhower's letter go, things like that.

But they aren't going to change, and then I just sort of laugh them out of court.

Well, that's the thing to do.

What's Clawson think of it?

Oh, same thing.

I mean, Ken just says ignore it, that Kay Graham is on a vendetta, and we're just going to be misled if we read the Post and think we're reading what the public is reading.

But that's why I just get to all of our friends here that the Post is wrong.

I mean, I think really some subtle attacks on the Post...

two republicans in the house and senate and the administration might be you know what the post said what the news is well we're going all out on the uh bob dill did that yesterday uh mr president pretty well yeah he he hit the media for papering over mcgovern's problems and uh specifically mentioned the post we're we're going balls out to get that new summary done i mean the aei's people were in here yesterday and if they can they can see that it's a marvelous opportunity oh it is it's a great opportunity

And then on the networks last night, McGovern made what I consider to be almost a fatal blunder on the POW issue.

I mean, it's not fatal in the sense that I suppose he can just say he didn't mean it.

He'll say he didn't mean it, but what he said is incredible.

And NBC picked it up, and of course it's running on the wires today, where he says that while he was in a meeting with the delegates and all, and it's from South Carolina, and one of the delegates, William Jones, said to him,

It seems to me, Senator, that what you want to do is give the North Vietnamese everything they want first and then ask them to give us back our boys.

Quote, I'll accept that, McGovern answered.

Jones, you mean you just want to beg?

Quote, McGovern again, I'll accept that, McGovern replied.

Begging is better than bombing.

I would go to Hanoi and beg if I thought that would release them.

Jesus Christ.

Are we going to get that?

Oh, yes, sir.

We've sent copies of that this morning to all the veterans groups.

They'll...

spew it out for us.

We are helping.

I just keep, it's like surrender, you know.

I go to Hanoi and beg.

And also,

Chuck, I haven't seen us do an adequate job of pointing out the 15,000 French we're unaccounted for after the war.

Has that been done?

Yes, sir.

Hugh Scott did that in a briefing out here, and then we took...

He did it after a leadership meeting, and it was on TV.

Then we took Scott's letter and distributed it all over the place.

So are we going to leave it to the mercies of people where 15,000 brave Frenchmen disappeared?

That's right.

We did an article on that.

All right, great.

Way ahead of me, okay.

No, no, that's a good one, and...

I couldn't conceive during those debates why somebody didn't hit McGovern with that, but he may get hit with that this Sunday because he's on Issues and Answers, and we've primed up some questions.

Herb Kaplow is one of the interviewers, and I think McGovern may...

He may or may not ask anything.

Well, we're hoping, but I think he's going to have a little bit of a tough time.

The French analogy is a marvelous one because he hasn't been hit with that yet.

He, McGovern, hasn't, although Scott is.

has taken it very well.

I had a fascinating visitor last night, Mr. President.

I didn't know what the...

I suppose the networks both carried our no more draftee thing, didn't they?

Oh, yes, yes.

That was well handled, I presume.

Yes, Roger Mudd on CBS had it a little bit confused, but it was all right, it was good.

Ziegler had some very tough questioning on the...

You know, what about the naval and air force personnel, and what about Thailand?

Entirely different thing.

That's right.

But, no, it ran very well, and David Brinkley, of all things, gave his whole commentary over to Supporting Europe May 8th peace offer, saying that this is the best thing that the North Vietnamese can expect, and it's them, it's the North Vietnamese who are preventing peace.

Don't be a, I mean, our little boys get so concerned when they raise the question about air and naval forces in Thailand and the rest.

That's just bullshit.

Don't worry about it.

That's right.

I mean, nobody cares.

I mean, all they care about are the ground boys.

Well, that's true, Mr. President.

The more important than the 10,000 people, as I told you, is the, in my opinion, is the no-draftees, because that depersonalizes it.

And as soon as people, mothers know that their kids don't have to go off and go to Vietnam and be shot at, and kids know that, then if there are 39,000 or there are 50,000 or 60,000, if they want to be there, that's their business.

I mean, that...

That really changes the character of it very significantly, and that did play last night very well.

I think you'll have an opportunity to... Tell, incidentally, just sort of save me a call, get Hague or somebody to...

I suppose the question is how many draftees are in the Air Force and the Naval Forces that are serving out there.

What about that?

Get my point?

Yes, sir.

We'll get you the answer to that and get it up to Buchanan.

No, just leave it there in Washington.

I'm going to be back at 2.30.

Oh, all right.

We'll have it here for you then.

That's just a very brief answer there.

In the Navy and the Air Force, right?

Yeah.

That's a good...

I think I know the answer, but I think it might be a question somebody might ask.

I'll check it.

I think I know the answer also, but you probably won't find there any, but...

We'll have that one for you.

I had a very interesting visitor last night.

I got a call from Bill Paley at 5 o'clock, and he said he was in town for a dinner meeting with Joe Elsop, and could he come by and see me?

He had something very anxious to talk to me about.

I told him I was busy, and he said, well, he'd stay overnight.

So then I figured out, well, I'll make it easier for him.

I'll see him.

He came in with a jackass idea about press conferences.

He said, I just wanted to be sure to get this idea to the president.

Maybe they could have written questions in advance so he can think them through better.

Oh, shit.

I don't care about that.

No, no, no.

But that was only a pretext to come into the office.

And then he said to me, he said, I'd like you to get a, after he got over that, which was the first five minutes and was just bull.

I mean, that was just his excuse for coming in.

He said, you know, the president has done a marvelous job, Chuck.

He said, I am tremendously impressed with him.

And he said, I want him to know that just like in 1960, I am with him all the way.

And he said, we got talking, and he said, I am scared, I'm quoting him now, I am scared out of my wits by McGovern.

And I said, well, Bill, what are you going to do about it?

And he said, well, I'll tell you one thing.

He said, I know you fellas think the media are against you, but...

He said, to whatever extent I can, they're not going to be.

He said, I'm going to see to it.

He said, you're going to get more help than you think, because, he said, I've talked to editors and broadcasting executives.

Bailey is, if he wants to, is a real swinger, you know.

For Eisenhower, he was all out.

For N60, it was really nip or pat for me, but...

He didn't do much, although CBS was much better than NBC in 1960.

Yeah, and he said that he came to you with ideas, and of course he gave money.

And so did Stanton.

That's right.

Well, what he said is, he said, I will assure you that I will take a personal interest in keeping CBS honest through this campaign.

Did he mention why McGovern scared him?

Is it the only thing, for example, does he know that Israel will go down the tube?

Two things.

I gave him

the Israeli editorial yesterday, and he read that in full in my office, and he got very excited about it.

He said, God, this is it.

He said, this fellow is an old-fashioned isolationist.

He said he's dangerous as hell.

He wants a redistribution of wealth in the country in a way that this country is just too radical for this country.

And I said, well, Bill, honestly, we've been talking the last few days here whether the media would try to clean this fellow up.

And he said, no, they will not try to clean him up.

He said, you have a very different situation.

He said they're going to remind him of his views and they're not going to give him an inch.

And he said, because most of them, as individuals in the media, he said, I know what you fellas think about the shirt-sleeve press, and that's true.

But he said, at the level I'm at and others around me, he said, we're very, very concerned that this man is...

We want the president re-elected.

You mean not because there's so much for me, but because they're afraid of McGovern?

Well, Paley was trying to tell me it was because he loved you so much, but as you drew him out in the conversation, it was perfectly obvious that he's scared to death on the Israeli side.

I suppose that the thing for me he realizes is that I won't confiscate him, and he also knows that on the foreign policy issue, much as they regret to admit it, that we're sound.

Exactly.

And he made these points, and of course, as I've told you, every conversation I've ever had with Bill Paley, ten of them in the last couple of years, always his reel comes up.

He was having dinner with Joe Alsap last night, and of course, Alsap's piece yesterday was magnificent.

And Paley just said, well, he said, I just want you to know, he said, I really, I just want you and I want the president to know that I'm ready to do anything I can to

I think that's significant, Mr. President, because I didn't seek him out.

The way we want to handle this is very, very discreetly.

We don't want to bitch about every little thing that Rather and the others do.

But when there's something big... Carl Paley.

Only when it's big.

Say, look, we don't care about little things and so forth, but if there's something big and we're really getting destroyed, then we'll say no.

I just think this is something worth your consideration.

Always in a nice way.

Right.

Well, I must say that based on last night's television, at least...

NBC and CBS for one night at least.

Maybe it won't stay.

Maybe it won't hold.

Oh, they really, they cut him very hard, Mr. President.

And Paul Duke from NBC, who's no friend, said, I've forgotten his lead in language to the sequence, but he said there was some good news from McGovern today.

And he went to the platform to challenge it.

And then he said, but there was also some bad news in terms of a revolt on Capitol Hill.

And he called it a revolt.

And then he...

right into this fantastic footage, and he talked about the cloakroom surveys, and he said that real revolt building, and then, of course, Anunzio came on, and then on NBC they had Hayes with that comment, and on CBS they had him with another equally tough comment.

It really was quite a night in terms of television, and it ran for a hell of a long time.

Incidentally, as I'm sure you know, that...

having that pot on the ballot in california can be a real asset if we can force this guy to take a position on now he's likely to say well that's a state issue on the other hand he's already set his position and i think we just ought to have ads run all over the all over the country president is against it because i will say so whenever i'm asked right and he is for it i mean vote no

Yeah, I don't think he can get off of that position because he's been pretty... Be sure you have a talk with Finch on that and tell him that I want him to hit that every time he's out there.

That should hit the... And then tell Haldeman that he ought to pass that to Reagan so that Reagan's people can knock him.

Or out to, you know, we've got our own fellow out there, what's his name?

Nofziger.

Just told Nofziger to get it just pounded all over the place.

Nixon is against this thing, and therefore, everyone is, you could look him.

Of course, that'll bring out some of the young people, too, which is, of course, the young people that will come out on that are ones that would vote for McGowan anyway.

Oh, listen, and I don't think, I mean, I think on that, it's about a dead heat anyway.

I don't think that more than 50% of young people are for

for legalizing pot.

I agree.

I think that's right.

It's overwhelming in the country against it, you know.

It's about 70%, isn't it?

Oh, God, yes.

The polls are way up on that.

It's higher than...

But anyway, that's a very powerful point.

I suppose from our standpoint, that was certainly unfortunate to have New Jersey get screwed up.

I mean, of course, Republicans are...

It's a Republican attorney general in the state and a Republican U.S. attorney that are prosecuting them.

But Jesus Christ, I don't know what the hell's...

It sure didn't sound to me like they had much of a case on this fellow, but they must have more than appeared in the newspapers.

It's a damn shame as far as Cahill's concerned.

Well, that's our concern.

Yeah, I mean, because he's our man.

Cahill is our man up there.

It rubs off, but of course it's coming.

Let's see, this is four months before.

Well, that could continue to be a...

It could stew around a bit, but that's not... Well, he apparently stood up for his guy.

He made a very strong statement saying that he didn't think his man had done anything wrong and thought he would be acquitted.

Well, that's a contribution to the party, apparently.

Well, apparently what it is, they tried to influence a paving contract to go to someone who had made a contribution to the Republican Party, but they didn't succeed.

I mean, it wasn't even as if they... Oh, yeah.

It wasn't as if they... Kind of like a small ITT.

Yeah, but...

They didn't get anything out of it.

No.

I mean, it was just... Well, of course, the news stories may not be complete, but that's the way it reads, at least...

Well, I must say that I am somewhat reassured.

At least, what did Bob think?

Did that reassure him a little?

You know, Bob and I are the two cynics on this.

Well, you should be.

You should be cynical, and you should be skeptical, and you should push us hard.

But being very realistic, Mr. President, and I...

I wouldn't repeat this.

That kind of thing last night had a weight of an impact.

Bob had not seen it, but he read the news summary stuff and was very impressed with it.

What caused him to think of it?

Devastating.

And Clark McGregor said he'd never seen anything like it in politics.

He said he couldn't believe it when he watched it.

He said it was just brutal to see it because an unzio came on there.

I intend, incidentally, tonight to be very much above the battle.

I'm not going to.

You know, of course I'm going to avoid all political questions, and I'm just not going to get dragged into any fight with the press about why I don't have news conferences.

I'm just going to do it in gentleness and say, well, I know you have your views, I have mine.

What really counts is whether I do a good job, not how many press conferences I have, and the people can decide in November.

Do you think that's the best way to do it?

Absolutely.

The most important thing you can do tonight, Mr. President, because I think you'll have a large audience...

not having had one for a while and i think the most important thing to do is to brush off just as casually and nicely but quickly is get rid of in a hurry any question that doesn't help you make a point you want to make tonight yeah a discussion will be pressed on things like love bell even though i've already answered it bombing

and so forth, but I've got some pretty good answers on that.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure you do.

People want this to want North Vietnam bombed as long as they have our prisoners.

That's right.

I think I have no question about that.

And I think that's the kind of thing that you can say, well, we've made the most forthcoming peace proposal.

We're going to get our prisoners back by gut.

But I think any questions about press conferences, people don't give a damn about that outside of this city.

I know.

And I'm not worried about it.

After all, this is two weeks.

Why do they have to complain about it?

That's right.

Also, Mr. President, the people are seeing a lot of Democratic quibbling.

Last night on both of the networks, all three networks, they had the challenges to the Daley delegation.

They had Daley on.

He was madder than hell at the challenge.

And they had the challengers on saying, we've been spit at.

And they look kind of angry, fiery-eyed people.

And, I don't know, I just think my gut feeling is that the country can get awful sick of watching that.

Buchanan has, incidentally, if you read his memorandum, I sent it off to you.

You mean on the McGovern?

Well, he, no, no, this is a response to something I had sent in a news summary, just a two-pager.

Oh, no.

And I sent it around to you at home.

You'll get it tomorrow, probably.

Anyway, Buchanan doesn't think that the convention is going to be all that smooth.

He disagrees with mine and Haldeman's thesis that they'll paper it all over, but he may be right.

Well, Chris, I disagree on that also.

I think they've got problems that they... First of all, Wallace is going to give them fits.

I figure that goes on.

I suppose that's our big concern.

Don't you really think that this may be just a plot between the smart McGovern people that they're...

They're getting Wallace down there, and then they're going to make it so rough that he walks out and goes third party.

That's the fear I have.

Well, I think that's the fear I have, and there I am a cynic and a skeptic, and on the other I'm an optimist.

Why doesn't a column rip into that effect that he intends to do that?

Yeah, that would be a good idea, if we could get that thought planted.

Now, Wallace's people yesterday said that he is going to the convention.

and that he is going to make his case, and that he will not, under any set of circumstances, no matter what they do to him, bolt the convention.

That is kind of significant.

Well, I hope that's true.

He was then asked, Snyder was then asked, well, does this mean that you are ruling out a third party?

And he said, we're not ruling anything out.

We're simply saying that we will not bolt the Democratic convention, and that's a pledge.

I suppose that's the position they have to take then.

I would think he would have to take it now, but I also think it would be then a little tough for him, frankly, to walk out in a huff.

He might retreat from it afterwards and decide, well, the Democrats won't do what I want, therefore I'm going to run.

On the other hand, it gives him another problem, Mr. President, and that is that the two issues that he has now taken objection to on the Democratic platform

and national defense, he can't say, we're not doing those things.

In other words, he can't say that his position really differs from ours because he doesn't on those two points.

And all he can do is say the Democrats are no good on those two issues.

But I wonder if he can say, I have to run because otherwise the public won't have any choice.

That's a little, that's an added step that he has to go through.

so i don't know i have to admit that i can't figure it out there has been no activity anywhere in the country in any state to uh organize for wallace or qualify him there is time left but it's running and uh there are now oh eight or nine i've got a current list coming up but i think eight or nine states he's out of in kansas the conservative party put him on their line on the ballot that makes no difference but it makes no difference at all and it isn't him i mean they put him on on the conservative party so it isn't the aip

And it just seems to me that he would...

The question is basically southern states.

Take Alabama, if he's on there.

Well, we could still...

I mean, some believe we could win states like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Georgia, even with him on.

Is that correct?

A hell of a lot of people do.

Lou Harris does, among others.

Lou says you, in a three-way race, you win in those states, except Alabama.

He says you win in Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas.

Georgia, he's off the ballot, Mr. President, and it would take an act of the legislature.

That's a very important state.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's one where the law is fairly clear, and it's not even subject to a court challenge there.

The only thing that they could do there, I think, would be to try to convene the legislature, and I doubt that they'll do that.

Bob was very impressed with the photo of McGovern kissing Coretta King.

I don't know whether you saw that, but...

Alderman seemed to think that way.

Seemed to have a hell of a...

He's kissing around the cheek.

He's kissing around the cheek, but even so, Bob said that his feeling is that'll foul a lot of people when they look at it.

Of course, he's been saying all the wrong things in the South.

He's been talking about races getting together, the races getting together.

You know, that's the one thing that scares a hell of a lot of people.

I can't believe that he's being serious about the South.

I mean, just...

There isn't anybody down there who's for him, other than his own radical friends and the kids and some blacks perhaps.

But the Wallace thing is a mystery.

I can't quite figure it really out.

I don't know why he goes to the convention.

Maybe he wants the national visibility.

Maybe he thinks he can influence the platform, but I don't think he's an idealist.

I think he's a...

self-seeking, very, very crass individual.

I can't imagine him caring about the goddamn platform.

He cares about George Wallace, period.

But I just don't see how physically he could wage the campaign.

And he's got an awful lot of catch-up work to do in a lot of states if he's going to do it.

And it doesn't seem to me that even though he has the popular...

He's done well in the primaries, on the top of your vote.

He doesn't have the burning issue of...

He doesn't have any burning issue that we haven't already co-opted, in a sense.

I mean, he can talk about...

I guess he can talk about tax reform.

And I guess he can talk about the briefcase-carrying bureaucrats.

And that's a little tough, because there are bureaucrats in some respects.

But really, in the gut issue busing, you've...

I think you've taken that away from him.

I don't think he can... That one, he can't do much with us.

No, because I think you... We've got a hell of an argument with people that if you really want to do something about busing, keep a man in the White House who's doing it, not a fellow who's just a protest.

I mean, vote for action, not for a protest.

And I think we could make that stick.

We're making very steady progress on the Democrats for Nixon operations.

We've now got some people who are going to be working for us, and...

lining up recruits so that we'll be ready with endorsements after the convention, and we'll be ready to put a formal organization together as soon as Conley gets back.

We don't want to jump the gun on John on that.

I've got a great young fellow.

Do you remember that young lad I brought in to you who was just back from Vietnam who debated John Kerry?

John O'Neill, who's going to come up and work for us.

He's a sophomore, freshman in law school.

He's kind of a first-year in law school.

And he's a Democrat.

He's a Democrat from Texas, but lived in Massachusetts.

He sounds like John Kennedy and looks a little like him.

He's going to organize young Democrats for Nixon.

Great.

Yeah, we'll get some good people moving.

And I think it's—I brought down Rizzo's campaign manager, who's going to work with us.

And Rizzo, of course, is ready to go whenever we tell him, as you know.

And we have his man now on board who will be working with us through the next month getting this lined up.

So this is beginning to fall into place.

We're beginning to get some action.

Okay, Chuck.

Off to California tomorrow, I hope, if they get through with it.

Well, I hope they let you.

I hope the damn Congress doesn't hold you up, Mr. President.

Well, they won't.

I don't think they'll hold past Saturday, do you?

No, no, I don't see it.

I can't see those guys staying here until the following Friday, because if they don't get out of here Saturday, you know, they've got the Fourth of July weekend.

That's right.

They won't be in then.

Nope.

Really?

Nope, I don't think so.

No, I'm sure not.

You know what happens up there.

I listened to Clark this morning talk about it.

We can't get this through, and we can't get that through.

You know, when they get that fever of wanting to get out of there, that runs through that place, and they can't get a quorum in the House.

That's what will happen tomorrow afternoon.

So my own feeling is that they'll fold up.

I don't see them hanging in there.

We can't fold without the death limit, unfortunately, can we?

That's right.

Well, they'll have to act on it, and it may force their hand.

Let's hope so.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. President.