Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 139 › Conversation 139-004

Nixon phone call with Ehrlichman on Railroad legislation and Economic policy

Wednesday, August 9, 1972 · 1:47 PM–1:52 PM ET · Camp David Study Table · 4 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.Conversation139-004 on Tape 139StartWednesday, August 9, 1972 at 1:47 PMEndWednesday, August 9, 1972 at 1:52 PMRecording deviceCamp David Study TableSourceNixon Library record for 139-004 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and John Ehrlichman discuss the political risks and economic necessity of supporting pending railroad legislation, weighing concerns about corporate bailouts against the need to preserve jobs. Nixon grants Ehrlichman permission to authorize Secretary John Volpe to negotiate the bill’s passage despite opposition from other advisors. Additionally, the pair discusses rectifying a misleading Washington Post report regarding Elliot Richardson's stance on state aid, confirming that Richardson will hold a press conference to clarify the administration's support for imposing a legislative spending lid.

Audio

Download MP3 · 6.1 MB

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

· Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).
Yes, sir.
You wanted to talk to me about that railroad thing.
I did, right.
I talked to Volpe last night.
He gave me the pitch.
Well, I'm having second thoughts a bit about it.
On the basis, number one, of what Chuck tells me about the truckers and how they will help.
Number two, on the basis of what Volpe tells me about the very serious railroad economic situation that he feels can be averted by this, I've done some independent checking, and what Volpe tells me does check out.
We have some railroads right on the edge of reorganization.
Why does Volpe say Flanagan is opposed to it?
What advice is Flanagan opposed to it?
Because he wants to get these three basic deregulation reforms in the transportation industry.
and feels that this particular piece of legislation is the last best chance of getting those.
Well, can we?
No, we won't get them.
Well, then we have to do this.
There's no chance of getting them.
Well, then why do we have to be so obtuse?
Well, the only reason that we would not support the bill is for the reasons that you and I discussed.
The appearance of bailing out big business?
Exactly.
Well, I hope he says there are a lot of railroad workers, right?
I'm sure that's so.
And you can rationalize it on the basis of jobs and so forth.
The feeling that I have is that there is an economic necessity for this that can be argued from an inside standpoint.
We have to face this thing as an economic reality.
I see.
And that's the reason for my second thought.
right right right well i think uh it may not be all that big a problem on the big business side i don't know of course ben central the rest has been well if you don't feel strongly on that point uh as a i'm concerned about it john but it seems we always have this problem right do you help any uh anything to save jobs and you're helping business so uh if you uh if you feel that uh
If you give me a little latitude on this, unfortunately, today is the last day for action, and what I'd like to do is negotiate it through this afternoon and then make a call on it.
You would make the call?
You mean to the people involved?
I'd let Volpe do the execution.
Yeah.
And the way we do it is for Volpe to write Staggers a letter.
Now, there's no sure thing.
The bill still may not move.
Staggers may keep it bottled up for his own reasons.
good incidentally one other thing I was noting in the post some piece with regard to the fact that Richardson apparently had at least it was alleged had recommended that we
oppose this giveaway to the state, you know.
We're getting that straightened around.
He's going to have a press conference.
Is it true or not?
No, it's not true.
I'm totally against the goddamn thing.
I understood we had no choice.
Richardson's having a press conference this morning, and he's taking a very firm position for a lid.
For a lid?
Yes, sir.
How can we lid it, though, at this point?
Well, by legislation.
Well, ask for legislation putting a lid on it.
Right, right.
But pointing out that we had no choice.
That's right.
And, well, did we delay a month, actually, or not?
No, no.
Now, you see, what they had was two leaked documents out of a series of about a half a dozen.
And they wrote a highly distorted story on the basis of those two documents.
And it was leaked out of ATW?
Right.
And so Elliot is going to set the record straight today.
Does Elliot have any idea who leaked it?
I don't know that, but he's highly exercised about it.
He knows it's not true, does he?
That's right.
He's going to get it set right.
Well, that's good.
We've been on it this morning.
I knew when I saw it I would rather...
My God, this is one that we couldn't feel more strongly about.
That's right.
If anything, we would have been doing it the other way.
We're notifying Ogilvy and Rockefeller's man that he's making the statement this morning, so we're covered there.
That's fine.
That's fine.
Okay, John.
Good.
Good.
Okay.
Right.

NARA Description

On August 9, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 1:47 pm to 1:52 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 139-004 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 139-4

Date: August 9, 1972
Time: 1:47 pm - 1:52 pm
Location: Camp David Study Table

The President talked with John D. Ehrlichman.

[See Conversation No. 200-17]

     Railroad bill
          -The President's talk with John A. Volpe, August 8, 1972
          -Charles W. Colson
                -Truckers' reaction
          -Volpe
                -Railroads
                     -Economic problems
          -Peter M. Flanigan's opposition
                -Deregulation reforms in transportation
          -Administrative opposition to bill
                -Public reaction
                     -Help for big business
                -Railroad workers
                -Economic factors
                -Help for big business
                     -Penn Central Railroad
                     -Public reaction
          -Ehrlichman's work on bill
                -Volpe letter to Harley O. Staggers

     Aid to states
          -Washington Post report on Elliot L. Richardson
          -Richardson’s forthcoming press conference
                 -Aid lid
                      -Possible legislation
          -Leaks from Department of Health, Education, and Welfare [HEW]
                 -Distortions in press story
                 -Richardson’s forthcoming rebuttal
          -Richard B. Ogilvie
          -Nelson A. Rockefeller

Also recorded on August 9, 1972

  • 200-005 10:19 AM · 47 sec — President Richard M. Nixon met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:19 am and 1:47 pm.
  • 200-006 10:19 AM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:19 am and 1:47 pm.
  • 200-007 10:19 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:19 am and 1:47 pm.
  • 200-008 10:19 AM · 7 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:19 am and 1:47 pm.
  • 139-003 1:05 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 1:05 pm and 1:47 pm.
  • 200-015 1:05 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 1:05 pm and 1:47 pm.
  • 200-016 1:05 PM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 1:05 pm and 1:47 pm.
  • 200-017 1:47 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 1:47 pm to 1:52 pm.

All 23 conversations from August 9, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 139-004, August 9, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/139-004 (accessed October 12, 2026).