Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 142-009
Date: Wednesday, September 13, 1972 at 11:27 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Colson, Charles W.
Recording device: Camp David Study Table
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/142-009
National Archives Catalog: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/417175343 (NAID 417175343)

This transcript was made by an AI model listening to the recording (google/gemini-3.8-flash) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Speaker names are the model's inference. Verify against the audio before citing.

[0:00] COLSON: Hello. Good morning, Mr. President.
[0:02] NIXON: Hey, how are you this morn--? Cold still sounds bad.
[0:04] COLSON: Fine, thanks, sir. You-- Cold still sounds bad.
[0:08] NIXON: No, it's not too bad. It's, frankly, getting a little better, I think.
[0:10] COLSON: Well, I hope so. That's uh--
[0:11] NIXON: It's uh, it's just uh, I get it about once a year, and uh and I don't I always follow the theory of never going to bed with it, which, of course, is uh probably bad, but uh it uh but uh you can't afford to in this business.
[0:17] COLSON: Yep.
[0:25] COLSON: Well, if you just get some rest, you'd be uh--
[0:27] NIXON: Well, I get plenty of rest. That's, that's, that's no problem. The problem is you don't really rest uh, you know, we have more we have too the thing that most people don't realize that in this position, there really isn't much time to to have the normal kind of rest that most people have.
[0:40] COLSON: Well, there isn't. You can't, you can't get away from it, is the problem.
[0:45] NIXON: Yeah, that's right. That's right. I was going to ask you uh I've I've been making a rather amusing comment that uh, just having Haldeman call right in here yet, and that uh
[0:58] NIXON: I was just thinking if uh When I think back of the crowds that we've turned out in '68 and '60, if the press ever wrote them the way they do this guy's crowds: "huge, enthusiastic." Good God Almighty. I mean, you know, it's Isn't it Isn't it really uh It's really a shocking thing, you know, how how the editorializing of the crowd is important.
[1:10] COLSON: Yeah.
[1:16] COLSON: It's appalling.
[1:17] NIXON: It's uh It's important. And also uh, but that's just one of those things you have. Now, we'll go in and we'll have the crowds, but they will uh When we do, but they will not be When they mention the size of the crowd, they'll say "a large crowd" or "a crowd" They'll They'll put the number in, but they won't use the adjectives.
[1:34] COLSON: Mhm. Nope.
[1:36] NIXON: They an adjective like "huge," of course, is or uh uh etc. Now, at State and Madison, Chuck, you can't have less than You cannot have less than 300,000 people. No way.
[1:47] COLSON: That's right.
[1:49] NIXON: I've done it.
[1:50] COLSON: That's right, at that time. Sure.
[1:51] NIXON: I've done it all the time.
[1:54] COLSON: Plus the fact uh I th-- I think it came through, Mr. President.
[1:57] NIXON: I don't know what your people I was going to ask you what they uh
[2:00] COLSON: Well, they they've they've
[2:02] NIXON: What about Yeah. Go ahead.
[2:03] COLSON: The general feeling this morning was that it was a Kennedy crowd, and uh that that isn't necessarily uh a plus for McGovern, because
[2:09] NIXON: Well, that's true, if that's if that's the feeling.
[2:12] COLSON: Yeah, and it, and it Well, most of the signs have been for Teddy uh that they've seen out there. Uh most of the enthusiasm has been in response to his speeches. And uh he's not running. The uh And he In a sense, he upstages McGovern. And that, that, of course, point was made in the press.
[2:28] NIXON: How about McGov-- McGovern How about Daley's uh rather ex- rather unenthusiastic endorsement? Does that have any significance?
[2:34] COLSON: Well, I think so, yes. I do. I think that uh [clears throat] that uh Kennedy uh called a chip on uh on Daley, and uh
[2:43] NIXON: Yeah.
[2:46] COLSON: Daley had to go out and, and make his public, but
[2:47] NIXON: Shut his He still isn't going to crack the whip on his underlings, though.
[2:51] COLSON: No, and and on uh I guess it was
[2:53] NIXON: They still get them, don't we?
[2:54] COLSON: Oh, yes, sir. And it was on CBS last night that they had Marzullo on again just saying, "I'm not I'm not I got I haven't got a word to say beyond what I've already said." In other words, he just, he just walked out of the room after the meeting.
[3:03] NIXON: Yeah.
[3:05] COLSON: Two others followed him. And then the uh another press report said that five of the aldermen uh uh refused to have anything to do with the uh with the show. No, it it
[3:15] NIXON: Mhm.
[3:16] COLSON: Daley has not made this what uh Dave Bradshaw describes as a as a cardinal uh law. I mean he hasn't, he's he's going through the motions, but he isn't really--
[3:22] NIXON: Right.
[3:24] NIXON: Now, one good thing about this, in this sense, that uh they can run their crowds and everything, and then our people will all get stirred up a bit, and uh You see, that's one thing that happens.
[3:33] COLSON: Well, that's a benefit, because--
[3:34] NIXON: That'll help us.
[3:36] COLSON: Oh, yeah, because it's They say, "Oh Jesus, they had that big Chicago crowd, let's go out and work and get somebody else." That's right. That's right. It's our people who uh who need to get motivated now, and and I'm absolutely convinced uh
[3:43] NIXON: I think they will be.
[3:44] COLSON: The bigger the vote, the bigger the uh the margin for us, and it's very un- unusual in that respect, but it's, but that's our case.
[3:47] NIXON: Yep.
[3:52] NIXON: That's why we're going to go for the big vote this year.
[3:54] COLSON: And uh if they stir up these crowds and if TV plays it uh, that's just going to cause people to get a little bit nervous that, "My god, maybe this guy has uh has got a chance after all and we better we better uh get down and we're get registered." You know, that's uh I think you have to give the public a lot of credit for for figuring these things out. They'll see this and they'll
[4:11] NIXON: That's a point that Teeter makes, isn't it?
[4:13] COLSON: Oh, yeah. He said, "My"--just He said, "My God, these, we, we sit here and think that points aren't getting through." He said, "You'd, you'd just be amazed at how the public uh catch these things. We think they're not publicized, and uh and yet, he gets them thrown back to him in the open-ended questions." He said, "This is just an"-- He just living in an age when, when uh, with such instant communication, people
[4:33] COLSON: people really do know what's going on.
[4:36] NIXON: They try to pick up pick up the nuances, hunh?
[4:39] COLSON: Yes, they do. And uh they get insulted. You know, this uh this Shriver thing yesterday uh is a is a
[4:47] COLSON: darn good case in point.
[4:48] NIXON: The thousand dollars?
[4:49] COLSON: Yeah. My God, what an insult to anybody's intelligence. Now, we're we're going to have
[4:54] NIXON: Be sure Be sure it gets around.
[4:56] COLSON: Well, yes, sir. That's one that we're pushing hard uh to um uh, particularly hard, with Hugh Scott, who's going to hold a press conference this noon and see if Hugh can't
[4:58] NIXON: Yeah.
[5:08] COLSON: I'd, I'd kind of like to see Hugh start taking Sarge Shriver on, and uh let Hugh be the cutting edge with Shriver, and use this as a good opening wedge. I mean, it's just so preposterous to uh think that the American people would be so gullible as to buy that kind of a line that uh
[5:14] NIXON: Yeah.
[5:19] NIXON: Yeah.
[5:22] COLSON: uh, but, but that does get through to What I, the, my, my point is that kind of thing does get through to people. They They hear that and they say, "Oh, for God's sake, you can't, you know, just can't believe what this fellow's saying." And it hurts his credibility with everything else he says.
[5:37] NIXON: Hm.
[5:38] COLSON: Preposterous statement. It was on the radio uh
[5:40] NIXON: Mhm.
[5:41] COLSON: last night, this morning. The TV didn't pick it up, but uh a little things in the newspapers. Now, I'll I'll just bet you we'll start hearing back on that one. And if Scott gives it a little kicker today, that'll uh that'll keep that one uh keep that one up on the front burner. That's a good one. Uh
[5:56] COLSON: Everything these fellows do to hurt their credibility now is the is to me the Yeah.
[6:01] NIXON: Yeah.
[6:02] COLSON: the vital thing, because uh because that plays the trust issue, and uh you've got the trust, and uh people do trust you, and uh
[6:04] NIXON: Boy, that's hard.
[6:13] NIXON: Well, they do come back to this debate thing. I'd really keep smashing on debated. Uh he debating himself, that's, that, I know, is a real zinger if we ever get our people to pick it up.
[6:22] COLSON: Well, it's uh, that's a
[6:23] NIXON: Well, you've tried and they just don't
[6:25] COLSON: Yeah, that's a funny one, because uh, well, we we put it out. We put out a hell of a good uh speech on that by uh by Dole, and they didn't, the media just didn't use it.
[6:33] NIXON: Yeah, but Dole hurts them.
[6:33] COLSON: We're putting it on the cover Yeah, I think that's right. We're putting it on that cover Cover of Monday going Cover of Monday next week, and that goes to 100,000 people.
[6:42] COLSON: And at least that'll start people talking about it, and uh Mhm. I I still am a great believer, Mr. President, in the in the careful use of direct mail. I do think that people who are interested in a subject who receive something uh, I know I've done this myself, you stick it in your pocket, and uh
[6:57] NIXON: And then you read it later.
[6:58] COLSON: you read it, and uh you talk about it. I mean, we're we're sending out 48,000 uh of the column on Shaves, and uh uh that's going out to the whole
[7:06] NIXON: And that
[7:08] NIXON: Could you could you get Leo Cherne to do that document?
[7:10] COLSON: Oh, yes. Oh, no. He's delighted to and he was-
[7:12] NIXON: Now don't let Shriver get off of that, you know. He can't say something and then take it back.
[7:16] COLSON: No, sir, we'll we'll keep them we'll press them very hard. We're sending that to the whole Atlantic along-
[7:23] NIXON: You, I told you you can put out the Porter wire just verbatim now.
[7:25] COLSON: Well, I told, Ehrlichman's having lunch with Joe Alsop, and I said Joe wants to write that, and I said go ahead and give him the whole cable if it's, if it's necessary to get him to do the story. Because he had been talked to by Harris, and he he wants to do it, but he's had too many others
[7:39] NIXON: Hm, good. Good.
[7:40] COLSON: in his own pipeline to get that one to get that one written.
[7:45] NIXON: Well, you know, that's he is really, you know, doing something here now that's, in my view, is has to be desperation in one sense, because to run your big-city stuff eight weeks before, in the eighth what what I call the eighth week,
[8:07] COLSON: That's right.
[8:08] NIXON: is just awful goddam early. You know, we ran Chicago in '68, we ran it too early. We had a huge, huge crowd, but it was forgotten by the time of election. Your last three weeks are when you've got to run those big crowds, Chuck. I just know that.
[8:20] COLSON: Oh, that's right, Mr. President. That's true. But
[8:22] NIXON: And I don't think they swing more than a couple of percent, but I guess I think maybe his strategy is, is, as I said yesterday, is to get them stirred up.
[8:32] COLSON: Well, he's got to get up off the off the floor. I mean, he's he doesn't have to worry about peaking too early. He's got to worry about about salvaging any kind of a campaign. That's, I mean, his biggest problem is is trying to figure out how to how to keep the thing from turning into a debacle. You know, it's it is feeding on itself. There isn't any question about that.
[8:52] NIXON: And we want to make it feed more.
[8:55] COLSON: That's right. Also our Republicans are, as I told you yesterday, are really up. Good God, they think they're going to every everyday in the state, it doesn't mean they've got a chance to create even the Massachusetts people.
[9:07] NIXON: Oh, yeah. I've talked to my They think they have a chance?
[9:09] COLSON: My friends up there tell me that, with the Democratic defections that have occurred in the state, and with Ed Brooke running a a race right now that he'll win two to one, that it was that it it's very very damn good possibility that we'll carry Massachusetts.
[9:23] NIXON: Well, be any of that. The the whole thing is, is getting Is it the I just want getting back to the media business, that the the the the outlandish, the extravagant way- but they did that to us in '60, I remember, vis-à-vis Kennedy, then you know.
[9:43] COLSON: Mhm.
[9:44] NIXON: We had the great battle of the crowds. He had the big crowds, but we had big ones, and, usually, ours were somewhat better because we were better advanced. But we couldn't get the goddam media to give us any credit. You know, they they wouldn't give us the they wouldn't use the words, "enthusiastic," and the rest, you know.
[10:01] COLSON: Oh, well, this fellow's head that, I mean, you can read into what's being written the last 24 hours kind of a desperate effort by the media to to say that his campaign is-
[10:21] NIXON: On the way.
[10:22] COLSON: is on the way, that it's moving up, that they're just, you know, they're just taking off with enthusiasm, and But when you look at it, when you see it on television-
[10:35] NIXON: It doesn't look that way?
[10:36] COLSON: Well, it looks, yeah, it looks pretty big, but but-
[10:40] NIXON: Looks big, but I mean how does it look enthusiast-
[10:42] COLSON: No, you don't get that on TV. And you also, what what you do get, though, is Kennedy lighting the spark, not McGovern. And, I'm not so sure that's a plus for McGovern. I think that's a that's a very dubious that's a very hard call, and I I was reading in one of the political columnists, I can't remember who, but he said that they-
[11:01] NIXON: Mhm.
[11:02] COLSON: the McGovern people have had a hell of an internal debate over this, because the risk of of Kennedy doing this was that he would upstage McGovern and by comparison make McGovern look bad and weak. But they decided they they so desperately needed the crowds that they would they came down on the side of the decision was made on the side of of having Kennedy do this.
[11:21] NIXON: Mhm.
[11:22] COLSON: But, you know, it is it there That's a that's a very hard judgment call. I think I might have voted the other way if I'd been involved in that, because you really the man they're going to vote for looks, by comparison with Ted Kennedy, pretty flat. He's got monotone and his speech isn't that inspiring and Now, that was that was reported. That was pretty well reported, that that Kennedy topped him.
[11:42] NIXON: Aha.
[11:43] COLSON: on the speeches, and if you watched it, it was pretty apparent. And I think that even, think it was CBS last night, even CBS showed that the Daley organization wasn't wasn't what it ought to be.
[11:55] NIXON: Mhm.
[11:56] COLSON: I mean, it was not wasn't unified, that there were dissenters among the the committee men and the aldermen. So I I think he got a, sure, obviously, he got a shot in the arm out of Daley's performance yesterday.
[12:08] NIXON: Oh, you've got to expect him to.
[12:09] COLSON: But he's got, yeah, he had to have that, and-
[12:09] NIXON: Oh, we could give him a shot, and you'll get big crowds in the center of cities and he'll think they're his.
[12:20] COLSON: Yeah, the the problem is the the the problem for him is that I don't know what you're when you mention this three weeks, I don't know what he does after this. I mean, he's got once he's done this, he's done it. And he can't go back into Chicago and do the same thing again, or he'll be-
[12:34] NIXON: That's right.
[12:35] COLSON: by comparison, look bad, and-
[12:37] NIXON: Now the only way he can go back to these cities now is to go back to rallies.
[12:42] COLSON: That's right.
[12:43] COLSON: But they'll all be compared back to this one. In other words, if this was so highly touted with Teddy out there, they'll they'll start going back to this and saying, well, he came back into Chicago, but he didn't do as well.
[12:54] NIXON: Yeah.
[12:55] COLSON: Of course, we got got another thing. He he was not here yesterday on the critical vote on revenue sharing, and we've got
[13:06] NIXON: Didn't need his vote though, you see.
[13:09] COLSON: They didn't need it, but but hell, if he was interested, I mean he's he's taken no interest in that. That's one of the reasons we have all of the mayors. It's a lousy issue publicly. I mean, I don't think it's I won't say lousy. It's not a-
[13:22] NIXON: Well, that's not a big vote-getting issue.
[13:26] COLSON: not a big vote-getting issue publicly, but it it sure as hell has these mayors on the edge of their chairs, and he's done nothing in this area. He's really got no no record, so we're we're getting material out. We're also getting people to use stuff in each city that he's going into about
[13:28] NIXON: Right.
[13:43] COLSON: what he hasn't done on the on the urban problems, and teacher strike, when he gets into Philadelphia, we hope there's a hell of a good statement out.
[13:49] NIXON: Right.
[13:50] COLSON: Rizzo cut him up the other day. I was talking to Peterson, and he My God, he cut him up in the press conference, just fiercely.
[13:55] NIXON: Yeah.
[13:56] COLSON: Good. I was glad to hear that, because Frank's been a little bit quiet or a little bit reluctant to go into some of the things we've asked, but he, according to Peterson, he he said, "I'd rather I'd rather have politicians who are picked in smoke-filled rooms than by than are picked by the gay liberation." [chuckles] Jeez.
[14:09] NIXON: Okay.
[14:10] COLSON: Oh, sir-
[14:11] NIXON: Okay, fine.
[14:12] COLSON: Thank you, Mr. President.