Nixon phone call with Colson on 1972 campaign and George McGovern

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NixonHello?

ColsonYes, sir, Mr. President.

NixonDid you get home?

ColsonYes, sir, I am.

NixonYeah, well, are you having dinner, I bet, huh?

ColsonNo, I just got home, and uh, was out swimming a little bit to get some exercise. I didn't get any.

NixonThat's good. That's good.

NixonWell, that was a very interesting meeting. I was glad to get Connally's reactions to everything. He's got very good intuition.

ColsonHe sure has. His political instincts are are just uh just great.

NixonRight. Right.

ColsonI think we're doing the right thing. I think that uh, [clears throat] I didn't want to raise it in that meeting, but I I think one of the reasons that we need to keep a little bit of the heat on the negative ads, or on the attack ads,

NixonYeah.

ColsonI think it's having an effect on McGovern.

NixonYeah. I think uh I think that's right. And it was good, though, that he reached a conclusion that we should go forward.

ColsonExactly.

NixonWell, he he had to be convinced of it. Now, he is convinced of it. Now, he should go forward.

ColsonYeah, well,

NixonIncidentally, if we don't use them now, we're not going to be able to use them during the uh,

Nixonwell, you know, it's it's better to use them now than during the Russian period.

ColsonI think that's right. Plus, plus 6 weeks is about right if you want to build up the frequency of it.

NixonRight.

Colson[clears throat] Then we need to start a few of them now. And uh even if uh if McGovern goes on next week to give a speech on amnesty,

Nixon[coughs] Yeah.

Colsoneven to be able to use one or two the evening he's speaking,

NixonMhm.

Colsonjust, you know, maybe the credibility one, or one like it.

NixonYeah.

NixonWell, actually, I uh I think it's interesting that he's uh I understand he's gotten so sick of his schedule, he's not going to come back. Isn't that true? He's sort of canceled out and is going to come

Nixonback and prepare a speech, is that right, or what?

ColsonWell, there are two stories, Mr. President. One is that he has uh canceled out all of next week, and uh

Colsonis coming back to write a 1/2-hour speech, and uh buy television time for next week to

Colson[clears throat] try to explain his position, primarily on amnesty, but also on defense. And he's got his defense proposal coming out this this Thursday, where

Colsonour fellows are working tonight to uh-

NixonDo we know what it is, or what? Or

ColsonWe have it.

NixonWhat is it now? [clears throat] Has he Is he shifting it?

ColsonNo, uh he's not really. He's uh he's trying to say He's got a hell of a It's a weird panel that he blethered by his definition, not by ours, but uh,

Colsonin which he sets forth what his defense policies will be. He does not back away from the uh-

NixonThe cuts.

Colsonthe cuts.

NixonWell, that's the main thing. We've got to hang him with that. And just and that has really got to be answered.

ColsonThat is

NixonOh, that

NixonThat's got to be answered right in the same story, I think. Not wait, not wait.

ColsonWell, this is perfect, because we have it 2 days in advance. And uh what he has tried to do is to say that

Colsonwe would remain number one in the world, and uh that if we continued under the Nixon budgets, we'd have $100 billion a year defense budget,

NixonGood.

Colsonand uh that that isn't necessary, and uh he's shifted

NixonWell, now, who's going to answer this and how, uh that is, on the defense? Is it Laird, or what?

ColsonOh, Laird, yes, sir.

NixonWell, he's got to hit it. He's got to hit it with a with maximum publicity. He's got to be built up. That's right. And he's got to [clears throat] he's got to say,

Nixonand he's got to use that use the thing that I worked out in the Legion speech. He would cut six aircraft carriers; that makes us the second strongest Navy. He would cut 60% of the bomber force; that's the second strongest Air Force. He would We're already the second strongest Army. A second strongest missile force. You can kill him with that if they do it right.

ColsonI think that's right. And that ad that uh Connally was talking about, the defense ad, the little 1-minute spot uh has

Colsonmodels of airplanes, and it's being eliminated.

NixonWhen would that be run, then?

ColsonWell, that's the one they talked about doing next week. So

NixonStarting, starting next week, you mean.

ColsonStarting next week, yes, sir.

NixonSo, that would hit while he's running.

ColsonWell, uh, yeah, he's coming with this on Thursday of this week.

NixonOh, his defense budget. I see.

ColsonHis defense proposal, yes, sir.

NixonWhen would Mel hit, then? Now, [clears throat] so, I really think this is one we got to program.

ColsonYeah. Mel would hit this Thursday, uh, and at the same time that McGovern is uh releasing it. And

Colsonthen Mel, of course, has Meet the Press this weekend, which gives him a marvelous opportunity to

NixonYeah, he can hit it there. But, let me say, I think hitting it for the evening news Thursday is terribly important, the day he puts out his defense thing. Just slaughter him on it.

ColsonYeah, because he'll he'll play this just like the security analyst speech. He's You can see him building this one up. He's released it 2 days in advance.

Colson[clears throat] He's got a list of people that uh, oh, it's a legal size page, double-spaced. I would guess 50

Colsonto 60 names on here. Uh, some pretty some pretty far out lefties.

ColsonUh, so, he's Mort Halperin, uh-

NixonOh, Christ.

ColsonLeslie Gelb.

NixonWell, let's get those in. I mean, now, well, do you got somebody to work on that immediately as to who some of these people are, that they're involved in the Ellsberg case?

ColsonYes, sir. They're working on it tonight.

NixonThey are?

NixonThat's got He's got to be attacked on that strongly. If we get Meany to hit that, that would be good.

ColsonWell, Meany, I think, would love to take this one on.

NixonSo, I'd take on Halperin and Gelb.

ColsonYup, yup.

NixonThis has got to be a real nut-cutter, now. We can't let him get off the hook on defense, you know.

ColsonNo, right.

NixonWe really can't let him get off the hook on it.

ColsonWell, I think I think this'll be I'm kind of glad he's doing it the way he is, Mr. President, because I think the timing of it is uh

Colsonis pretty good. Obviously, uh we'll be We were planning to hit defense next week. We'll be accused of being defensive, but who cares?

NixonNo, we won't be defensive provided we hit it this week.

ColsonThat's right. Well, we'll hit it the minute he puts it out, and uh-

NixonThat's good.

ColsonIt's It's, [clears throat] it reads quite well. It was This is better written than uh any of the white papers that I've seen him produce so far.

ColsonAnd uh,

Colsonit's he's he's trying to claim himself on this issue. It's obvious that he's worried on the issue. It's obvious that he realizes where he goes, that he's getting hit very hard on defense, on the gut issues.

NixonRight.

ColsonAnd uh I think that the idea of [crosstalk]

NixonHe he tries to claim that a $32 billion cut leaves the U.S. first.

ColsonWell, that's right. That's right.

NixonIt's impossible. No way.

ColsonThat's what this says. And uh, "We served it," headed, "We served as leaders in the McGovern national security panel, and states it's been released today." It's not his, it's their- it's his advisors, but he-

Nixon[sighs] Well, for Christ's sake, discredit the panel. And I really hope that we're going to get the the best nut-cutters there are and uh,

Nixon[clears throat] and then, I just pick out the worst ones like Halperin and Gelb, and that.

ColsonThat's right. I've got some of uh, I've got some of uh uh my people working on it tonight along with uh uh John Lehman from DOD, Kissinger's staff. Good man. Very good man.

ColsonIt's headed by Paul Warnke, Mr. President.

ColsonHerbert York, Clark Clifford.

Nixon[sighs] For Christ.

ColsonGeneral Gavin, Proxmire,

NixonYes.

Colsonand uh searchingletcher.

NixonRight. Well, [clears throat] but on the other hand, don't let him get away with this, now, because this is an attempt to clean up. He's tried to This guy is just doing what was what he did in that

Nixon'68 campaign for the Senate. He's trying to move back to center, lying, twisting and turning, and we mustn't let him do it.

ColsonNo, we uh we sure as hell are not going to let him do it, Mr. President. That's the only way he can get well.

NixonNow, one thing I would do is to have Connally issue a statement immediately after this and say, "This is a dishonest statement,

ColsonUh-huh.

Nixonand I will answer it next week on television on Wednesday." You get the point?

ColsonYes, sir.

NixonUh, so that you build his speech up. He says, "I'm going to answer it." I said, "This is a shocking, dishonest statement. And uh it's uh just uh incredible, you know what I mean? And I will answer it."

NixonAnd then you start building his speech up a bit.

ColsonHe's covering two or three points tomorrow.

NixonGood.

Colsonthe the wage and price control language.

NixonGood. He's up there for yeah, that's right. Just I wouldn't really try to use Shultz much on the attack. He's not good he's not comfortable with it.

ColsonHe really uh-

NixonI just I'd just have him use some positive things that are sort of dull.

ColsonGeorge wants to, but he doesn't know how to do it.

NixonNo.

ColsonHis heart's in the right place.

NixonI know. Oh, I know he's great, but you see it's it's he just isn't comfortable with it. So, you give him the things that are sort of positive, and you know, and all that and let somebody else do the nut-cutting.

ColsonStein is good at it.

ColsonOh, Stein is damn good at it. Yeah, Stein

NixonRight.

ColsonWe've got fellows who are good at it.

NixonThey're damn good.

ColsonRomney, as a matter of fact, has been uh I wrote him a little note tonight because he he's been making about as good press from the uh-

NixonHe knows how. He was a damn successful candidate for governor. He knows how.

ColsonYes, he cuts hard. He's uh he calls him naive and uh and kicks hell out of him in a national press. That's mainly what uh Romney's press is talking about.

NixonThat's good. That's good.

ColsonAnd how successfully we are in the in the housing market, which, of course, is That pushes a very positive story because that kicks the hell out of uh McGovern [unintelligible]

NixonYou know, incidentally, it's interesting that his defense speech will come out the day that we get that zero casualties, too. Now, you be sure to be sure that every every spokesman we had I'd I'd make I'd make 100 calls to Republican members of the House and Senate on that.

ColsonRight. We'll we'll call-

NixonLet's get that thing really steamed up.

ColsonWe'll call all of our surrogates that morning, Mr. President, Trumpet that, that day.

NixonSurrogates and people in Washington, also.

ColsonOn Congress?

ColsonYeah, Capitol Hill.

ColsonAll right, good. We'll do that.

ColsonI don't think he had a uh I don't think that he had a particularly successful day.

NixonYeah, right. Too much, you said uh, "What What did he do today? Where was he in uh?"

ColsonHe was up in Chicago and he spoke to the uh I guess he was in Chicago and Milwaukee both. He spoke to a Catholic school group and I uh saw it on CBS tonight. He was

Colsontaking your line uh basically, which CBS was quick to point out.

NixonYeah.

ColsonAnd uh then Bruce Morton came on, who's certainly been his apologist from the beginning.

NixonOh, yes, all the way.

ColsonAnd said, "We can't really impugn his motives, but uh or his sincerity, but it's only fair to point out that uh the Catholics are located in eight big states that McGovern has to reach. I thought they even sweat him.

NixonAnd CBS pointed out we'd already been for this?

ColsonOh, yeah.

NixonYeah.

ColsonNo, he's uh He comes out I think he comes out second best on that. He'll make he'll help himself because he's uh-

NixonYeah.

Colsonwith the Catholics uh-

NixonCatholic Democrats that want to be with him.

ColsonIt's given them an excuse to go back, I suppose, some of them. But uh-

NixonYeah.

ColsonBut he's still is he's still is on the wrong side of other issues as far as uh, frankly-

NixonWell, I would certainly I would think that uh the Cardinal in Philadelphia and two or three others ought to remember who the hell said it earlier and who forced him out.

ColsonOh, God.

NixonWill they Will they get that word?

ColsonAnd they also know that the Democratic platform refused to uh to include anything on aid to parochial schools. Oh, no, the Cardinal is uh just 100% with us and he's he's doing his work very effectively so is Cardinal Cooke.

NixonYeah.

ColsonThat kind of uh Now, will Cody? Will

NixonHm. That's good.

NixonIt's good.

Colsonall the political efforts that we've that we've climbed with these fellows.

NixonThat's good.

ColsonShultz had a good day with the building trades today. Did he know that by the-

NixonNo, I didn't hear about that.

ColsonWell, he had them all in and uh they're now forming a committee. He thinks they're going to announce their support either the end of this week or early next.

ColsonUh, he felt it went very well. He did not feel the need of calling. He was afraid he might have to call when you were while while they were there to uh-

NixonYeah, I see.

Colsontell you to put on a little show for them, but-

NixonRight.

ColsonHe said he didn't feel the need. He thinks he's got them now uh locked in and that they'll be coming out the middle of next week, which I think will give us a give us a good boost.

NixonOf course, I suppose that Harris would say that even on the defense issue, that that uh shows him twisting around a little bit on that, huh?

ColsonOh, yes. Harris Harris thinks, Mr. President, that that the more he tries to clean up the uh the harder it's going to be for him.

NixonYeah.

ColsonSindlinger feels the same thing. Sindlinger feels that uh Well, I don't know whether you saw the Star tonight. Crosby Noyes's column is uh and Kilpatrick's both. Crosby Noyes's a brilliantly written column tonight

NixonRight.

Colsonin which he said that really what's happened is that this fellow's become exposed. The American public has gotten to know him.

NixonRight.

ColsonUh, and that there's nothing surprising about the polls, that they know him and they know what a loony political philosophy he stands for.

NixonHm.

ColsonAnd uh he said he says, "Most of my liberal uh columnists uh find this very uncomfortable. They don't like to uh to realize what is happening to to this man and to the philosophy he represents, but uh

Colsonhe just doesn't uh he just doesn't have it and the American people are smart enough to see it. The more they see of him, the more they realize he doesn't have it."

NixonHm.

ColsonAnd really, it's a it's a magnificently well-written column, I've got to admit, for the Star. It's just brilliant.

NixonGreat.

ColsonThat's the point that uh that Sindlinger uh He said, "The The liberal," uh makes a great point. He said, "The liberals' idea

NixonYeah.

Colsonto explain this state of affairs uh they're taking the American electorate to task. The public, it is said, has grown callous and indifferent to the killing in Vietnam."

NixonMm.

ColsonAnd he said, "They're just blaming the public for the fact that McGovern and his policies aren't selling, but with the public, the fact that McGovern and his policies are lousy."

NixonThey are lousy. That's right. They're wrong, and the liberals are wrong, and they can't sell it. I mean the part is that they just realize, they're beginning to realize that this thing is one hell of a plebiscite on on them, you know. That's what's eating them, don't you think?

ColsonThat's just what's killing them. And that and that the guy that they've chosen to be their white knight just doesn't have it.

ColsonSo, it's a it's a Yeah, double

NixonRight.

NixonYou know, I think it's It's good that Gallup goes up and says the gap's going to close and so forth. So now, we've we've got it either way.

ColsonWell, that's right. It It does help, actually. Uh, if somebody has to discount it because, I My own view, Mr. President, is that that we are, well, I I believe Sindlinger's data. I think we're better off today than we were two weeks ago.

ColsonBut uh-

NixonWell, Sindlinger believes it anyway. Boy, those figures that you gave, I think they even surprised Connally.

ColsonYeah, Connally, when people go I asked him if I'd send him over a copy of it, of course, he thinks Sindlinger is marvelous. He had him down for three hours once.

NixonYeah.

ColsonHe's terribly impressed with him. Uh-

NixonOh, yeah.

NixonParticularly after McGovern's big week when all the press said he'd turned the corner.

ColsonThat's right. Uh, and one of the stories tonight said that he was tired, uh worn down, and uh been campaigning long hours uh 17 hours in West Virginia, and

Colsoneven the Star tonight talking about uh driving 5 hours to see 150 people at a plant, which that's crazy.

NixonOh, boy. He's a candidate for president. That's right.

ColsonCrazy. And uh but if he's if if after all of that and after Ted Kennedy uh parading out there with him, and uh Shriver running around the country like a like a madman, uh-

NixonHe's doing now what he ought to do, of course, I think, to come back to Washington and start doing some national television. And that'll help him some.

ColsonYep, I think. Well, yes, it might. It's certainly going to help a lot more than what he's been doing. But uh, if he if he can make himself come across effectively, which is-

NixonNow, there's one problem he's going to have, as I told Haldeman,

ColsonOf course, we know his thesis, the more they see of him, the more and that's Sindlinger's too, the more tired they're going to get of him. He does not he is not selling people. Also, he's got a hell of a problem that we don't have.

ColsonAnd that is that he For example, he came out for aid to parochial schools today and the immediately, the NEA, which had endorsed him, just kicked the living daylights out of him.

NixonDid they? [Laughter] See, they would never do that to us. Of course, because, basically, they're they're against it, aren't they? What'd they say?

ColsonOh, sure. Well, they said that this was an unwise and a wrong position, and that he should worry about public schools first. The public school needs are are enormous, and that until we take care of the public schools, we shouldn't be worried about the Here it is, "We believe such aid to be unconstitutional, in view of recent court decisions. We strongly urge"--it's a telegram to him--

Colson"we strongly urge that you focus your energies on the overwhelming fiscal crisis in our public school system, which enrolls 90 percent of the nation's school-aged children." See, they feel But he got their endorsement Great. just a few days ago, and that blew them up to figure out for aid to parochial schools.

ColsonHe's liable to find that trying to be all things to all people He's going to fall between the stools.

NixonBecause, as far as we're concerned, we don't have the NEA, and we don't give one damn.

ColsonThat's right, and we've never had them. They've always kicked us around, so we were it wasn't a question of of trying to eat both sides of the fence. But that may that this kind of thing is going to give him problems. Now, Sindlinger makes made another point on the phone to me today. He said that

Colsoneven where Sindlinger has found evidence that he's been picking up a little bit, in the same polls, he will find that he's losing. In other words, some of the affluent suburbanites who own stock were peeling away from him. And just maybe he would gain a little bit with one group or another, but

Colsonblue-collar, but but if he did gain a little bit, he'd he'd lose. In other words, he he may be a very tough spot just like this NEA and Catholic school thing, where he tries to pick up on one, he's going to [crosstalk] he's going to lose it on another.

ColsonBut they, but both, Sindlinger and Harris, believe, Mr. President, and this is good. The credibility thing leads to the trust question and

NixonMhm.

Colsonit's not credibility per se, it's the way the man handle himself, and

NixonThey think he's turning too much, huh?

ColsonYep. This is where he comes apart, and yeah, but people just don't [unintelligible] you know, he says, not good material, and

Colsonthey're they're getting they're they're losing confidence in the person. Harris found that

NixonWell, if we just [coughs] we just can't let him, if I can just just say, to be sure we understand, we must not let him get off the hook on the defense issue. That is his real Achilles' heel.

ColsonWell, happily, Mr. President, we that's where we have our best spokesmen. I think Mel Laird is is superb on this issue, and well, we get a pretty good one in Butz, if we can keep him off the goddamn green [laughter] Right. [laughter]

NixonYeah.

ColsonYeah. Now, Mel Laird is Mel Laird is very good on this, and just is dying to get at them. And you know, we've got a pretty good pattern laid out now. We've got Laird on We'll we've used Laird today for this and also have him again on Sunday. We've got Rogers twice next week.

ColsonWe've got Connally doing the Face the Nation the following Sunday, and then Connally's defense speech. So, we can we can keep a pretty steady His defense speech the following week?

ColsonThe following week. Yes, sir.

NixonMhm.

ColsonThe October 1st. I forgot to count it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, the 4th of October.

NixonMhm.

ColsonThat's what we talked about.

NixonYep. Good.

ColsonAnd I think that's good timing. But that gives us every other day, something that we can All right.

Colsonone of our better guns to fire into this issue. Right. Right.

ColsonAnd then and then, of course, next week we The The one set of spots that Connally agreed to use the negative Democrats spots on defense, which is persausive.

NixonFine.

NixonRight. Right.

ColsonSo, if he wants if McGovern wants to fight on this issue, that's Yep.

Colsonthat's great. If we get him talking about this, then he's going to have to twist and turn a bit. Right, and and make that the issue. That's right. The media, notwithstanding, I think he's the the television media at least, which always say we're on the defensive or we're we're reacting,

ColsonI think he's reacting more than more than we are, especially if he comes back next week, canceled out dates that he had on the road, and has to talk If he has to talk about amnesty, if he has to explain himself on that, that's, by God, he's on the defensive. And I think this defense panel is going to do it.

NixonWhat's his position on amnesty going to be, do we know?

ColsonWell, I would guess what he would have to do, he can't possibly come over to our position because he would just totally lose the kids, and he can't afford to do that. I think what he has to do is to try to take a middle of the road position and say, well, I they'll have to serve in

ColsonYeah. It'll be some form of the national service requirement. Oh, nuts. But we've got to we've got to be very hard on that that Oh, my.

Nixonanybody who's deserted his country must serve and I mean he's he's got to pay the penalty. Yep. And you notice Use use the word "penalty." We're not even going to consider any form of We're not going to consider anything until the prisoners are home, and the war is up.

ColsonWell, he doesn't, but but he says that, too, doesn't he? Well, he will say that. Yeah, but he'll say that, "I'm bringing them all home next spring, and therefore, here's what I'm doing."

NixonYeah. Yeah, but we've got to say that even when they're all home, and the war is over, they've got to pay the penalty for having deserted their country.

ColsonYeah. Pay the Pay the penalty is the line that's "The penalty" is the, right, the penalty. That's right. And he said things in the past that Mac's got him in this compendium that he's put together. He said things in the past that are just Yeah.

Colsonbizarre, you know, that "the real heroes are those That's right. That's right. who have the moral courage to That's right. That's right. That's right. flee the war.

NixonOkay. Well, anyway, [clears throat] it's uh, be an interesting uh, week. With uh, with uh, Sindlinger showing what he does, it's going to be very hard for Gallup or Harris to come out with anything very far different from that.

ColsonI think they're going I I think, you know, there'll be as there's always that margin for some statistical Sure. We don't mind that. difference, but I think it's going to be in the same ballpark as before, and it's going to crush hell out of them, Mr. President. You have the Monday when the that's all Tuesday, but the networks and the the else all picked up the reran the polls, you know, there was a lot of talk yesterday about the polls.

NixonYeah. Yeah.

ColsonThat just that just rocks the McGovern camp. Harris told me that that they call him trying to get data, and Right. Right.

Colsonso if we get another good round coming in next week, I think it's Then he's going to really have to get going.

Nixon phone call with Colson on 1972 campaign and George McGovern

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Nixon phone call with Colson on 1972 campaign and George McGovern

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Also recorded on September 19, 1972

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