On October 7, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David from 10:16 am to 10:28 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 147-006 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Yeah?
Yes, sir.
I want you to know that I...
I'm doing a little... a few odds and ends here.
I probably won't have this text up very close to about 11.30.
Well, what we're going to do, Mr. President, is take it down off the air.
Oh, that's... And release it that way.
Really soon enough, isn't it?
Oh, sure.
I can...
I'll have it ready probably by 11 or 11.30, if that'll help you.
Well, I think it'd be just as easy for us to take it down right off the air a half hour later and then get a transcript right out.
Well, if you want to get it sooner...
What she can do, of course, is as soon as I finish it, is to telex it down there, and then you've got it.
All right, well... Because he gave you an hour or two earlier, really.
All right.
But whatever you like.
Okay, well, if that's possible, but it's not necessary for you to rush... Well, they didn't rush... Well, I'm not rushing.
I checked the fact they didn't get the text in the last night.
They had to call Irvingman and the West Coast and a lot of other things, but...
Okay, we'll check with Rose, and when she gets it, she'll text it down, and we'll try to do it both ways.
Right, right.
Okay.
There really isn't a hell of a lot of news in it, Ron.
It's mainly just a pitch for the spending ceiling.
Well, I still think it would get good play.
But on the other hand...
The event itself has got a buildup.
The main thing is they must not get the impression we're going to put our tax reform thing out, which we're not now.
I refer again to property taxes, but I don't say what we're going to do about it yet.
Right.
But otherwise, that's fine.
Okay, very good.
We...
See, McGovern continues his rather wild swings.
It's about, you know, the guy's looking, I think, a little damn ridiculous on some of this stuff.
What do you think?
I mean, first it's the most corrupt, and then it's the most devious.
No, the most deceitful, and then the worst.
Right.
What was it today?
Oh, that one in the paper this morning was amusing.
I don't know.
I don't know something about it.
I don't know.
I forgot what it was.
It's just one a day.
That's probably their policy.
Yeah, I think that...
I certainly think I am right, though.
It doesn't, of course, the press loves it because they liked anything that knocks us, but on the other hand, it's got to turn off some of the people.
That's my view, at least.
In other words, I think a fellow like Potter really is concerned that it does turn off people.
That's my word.
No, I think so, too.
You know, when he, like you said, at Chicago...
referring to the sheerest kind of demagoguery.
Oh, yeah, that one.
I think he said it.
Oh, incidentally, that was great, though, for him to talk about amnesty.
Sure.
Yeah, that's right.
I love that.
But I'm saying when he refers to you as using the sheerest kind of demagoguery, anyone who's been watching him...
I wonder what's he doing.
Yeah, that's right.
And I saw TV last night.
They pointed out that they were redoing their television commercials, and they said they were going to be rough.
Well, you know, I don't think that people spark to that because he has a presentation and a posture that is not becoming to him when he uses these words.
He doesn't feel comfortable with it, does he, Ron?
Well, I think he probably feels psychologically comfortable with it.
No, no, no.
What I meant is he's got that—he's basically—
That's sort of an effeminate type.
That's right.
There's no question about that.
An effeminate type does not attack well because it sounds like a sort of a shrewish woman.
That's right.
Really, that's a shrewish woman.
He's whining.
I listened, going home to the radio the other night, WTOP grants 15 minutes of, you know, air time for people to air their views.
And they used an excerpt of one of his foreign policy speeches that he gave about, oh, two weeks ago.
And we were riding along in the car, and I was listening to WTOP news, and this came on.
And I thought, well, this is ridiculous, WTOP giving this much coverage.
But then it ended up it was one of those, you know, time spots.
But in listening to him for 15 minutes talk, it is very grating.
And, you know, the harshness of his language.
No spark or no spirit that he whines on.
And then the news, you know, came back on, and they covered a couple other events and covered him somewhere else, and his voice was on again, and the driver, the sergeant in the car said, Mr. Ziegler, do you mind if I turn this down a little bit?
Because it was getting on the guy's nerves.
Did you talk to Cronkite, incidentally?
Yes, I did.
Let's see, what did he say?
Did he say they had him in government already?
No, no.
What he said...
I really want to know the truth, you see.
I mean, if he wants to level with us, we might do his program.
Well, he was leveling, I think, the trap discussion.
What he said, he said that he realizes, and he seemed sincere when he said this, he realizes that you're busy here at the White House and so forth.
Yeah.
And...
But that was, of course, he was leading up to make his point.
He said, Ron, he said, I think that there are a number of issues that can be discussed and covered better in a one-on-one situation than can really be covered in a mass conference.
He said, I don't think the mass conference really, you know, brings out a lot of the details on issues and so forth that can be brought out.
And he said that's why he called you to suggest...
And then I said, well, how much time do you have in mind?
And he said, well, a half an hour, an hour.
I'm very open on that.
He said, of course, I think it would be enough to go for an hour.
He said, but he's open.
Then we talked about...
the fact that you would only do a thing like this live and unedited that has been your policy and so forth and he said that can be used that's the way i would want it and i said well i guess you've already talked to mcgovern and inline mcgovern up he said oh no uh he said uh he hasn't and uh i said well under this procedure i guess mcgovern would follow us he said no he said matter of fact he said he hadn't given that much thought but he said he recalled in 1960
You were very gracious, apparently, when he talked to you about this, as to whether or not Kennedy or you would go first.
And he said the president at that time said that didn't matter.
He said, I remember that very distinctly, and I'm willing to return the favor.
And to do it however you would want it, if you were interested.
He said, the way I do it, Ron, he said, we just tell McGovern that that's the only date we have available for him to go on, and that would be before the president.
I'd have to go on a second.
Yeah, that's what he said, and he said that he would... Also, I'm busy with the Congress.
Right, that's right.
Then I made the point... You make the point that he couldn't take excerpts from running...
Right, and he...
Yeah, I talked to him about that and running them face to face.
And he said, no, he wouldn't do that.
He set up any ground rule and do it on any basis that we would like.
And I said, well, that's something if we do develop an interest.
And I made the point about making recommendations to him and so forth.
Also, you made the joke.
made the point that we, the other networks, how do you think we could get around that?
Well, I told him, I started the conversation by saying, well, we have a number of requests similar to yours from not only the networks, but from the wire services, major publications, P.I.
Audio, and the rest.
And I said, I have to evaluate this in that context.
And I said, you know, how would we deal with the other networks?
Well, of course, he replied, Ron, I'm asking this on a CBS one-on-one exclusive, of course, talking from a self-interest.
And his proposition, of course, is a CBS exclusive.
All right.
Well, we'll think about it.
No matter how you shake it out, it comes down to the fact that it's a Walter Cronkite interview with McGovern and then a Walter Cronkite interview with the president.
I think we have to look very carefully at whether or not the promotion of that event
And then the interviews, no matter how widely spaced, how that would elevate McGovern.
I think we'd want to assess that very carefully.
Even though he would... Of course, if they put his on right now, and then we'd do ours the last week, that's what I'd have in mind.
Well, I talked to Cronkite about the spacing, and he had not even made this proposition to the network.
He hadn't, you know, thought about blocking it.
The only way I would do it would do it the last week on the basis that I'm too busy to do it for them.
Right.
Anyway, it's interesting.
It is.
All the other networks, but do things for them.
Well, you see, one of the things in the rotation of our one-on-one NBC would be the next up, and that doesn't bother me one damn bit.
NBC, we aren't going to give them.
That's what I mean.
And we could tell Smith that we'll give him the first thing after the election.
Well, Smith would understand, I'm sure.
Are you really telling that?
Yeah, I would.
That he could have the first crack that we're going to do?
The one-on-one isn't a bad idea anyway.
They'd like to give him the first crack out to the election.
But when I was talking to Cronkite, I sort of, you know, we went through the details of how you would do this and what he had in mind, and then I said, well, how would you handle the time thing?
I suppose you've already covered this with the governor.
Yeah, I see.
Good.
Drew him in that way, and he was...
He knows.
He knows, and he knew.
You don't think he's already offered to McGovern?
He tells me, and I ask him that precisely.
I said, well, I suppose you've already talked to McGovern on this and had him lined up, don't you?
He said, no, no.
He said he wasn't going to talk to him until he had an indication of our interest.
I suppose he's telling the truth, but you really never know.
It would be quite a coup for Cronkite, you see, and I think that's why he made that personal call, what he referred to as a personal call.
But I was not brusque with him, but I let him know in a subtle way that he went around a little bit.
I've got a memo into Haldeman with these details.
Right.
Oh, that's fine.
That's right.
I've got the word.
I have it down on paper.
Oh, that's fine.
That's fine.
That's fine.
Well, good.
Well, I think on balance that despite our, you know, I was talking to Colson and Haldeman a little about this later.
I think that we may tend to have been a little bit too rough in terms of evaluating the
The office thing is what TV does.
If you don't let them do it live, they aren't going to give you one hell of a lot.
They're going to give you a couple of hooks.
But the point is, if you look at the whole damn thing, it certainly gave us a pretty dominant news position on some things that we wanted, and I think we can't complain about that.
No question about that.
Total impact.
Also, it is very good with the columnist and the rest.
I mean, they're going to
I mean, when they wind around, I mean, when you've had one of these things right now for a couple of weeks, they won't say anything about not seeing them.
That's right.
Right?
That's right.
I just want to be overcautious so we don't overlook the TB side of it.
But I agree totally that the overall impact, the collective impact, the collective news impact of the session in the office was a very good plus.
So the experts now have something.
They like to be there.
Okay, Ron.
Okay, sir.
Bye.
Oh, Ron.