Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 147-006
Date: Saturday, October 7, 1972 at 10:16 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.
Recording device: Camp David Study Table
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/147-006

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] Yeah?
[0:01] Yes, sir.
[0:02] I want you to know that I...
[0:04] I'm doing a little... a few odds and ends here.
[0:06] I probably won't have this text up very close to about 11.30.
[0:10] Well, what we're going to do, Mr. President, is take it down off the air.
[0:13] Oh, that's... And release it that way.
[0:15] Really soon enough, isn't it?
[0:16] Oh, sure.
[0:17] I can...
[0:17] I'll have it ready probably by 11 or 11.30, if that'll help you.
[0:20] Well, I think it'd be just as easy for us to take it down right off the air a half hour later and then get a transcript right out.
[0:27] Well, if you want to get it sooner...
[0:29] What she can do, of course, is as soon as I finish it, is to telex it down there, and then you've got it.
[0:34] All right, well... Because he gave you an hour or two earlier, really.
[0:37] All right.
[0:37] But whatever you like.
[0:39] Okay, well, if that's possible, but it's not necessary for you to rush... Well, they didn't rush... Well, I'm not rushing.
[0:44] I checked the fact they didn't get the text in the last night.
[0:46] They had to call Irvingman and the West Coast and a lot of other things, but...
[0:49] Okay, we'll check with Rose, and when she gets it, she'll text it down, and we'll try to do it both ways.
[0:55] Right, right.
[0:57] Okay.
[0:58] There really isn't a hell of a lot of news in it, Ron.
[1:00] It's mainly just a pitch for the spending ceiling.
[1:03] Well, I still think it would get good play.
[1:05] But on the other hand...
[1:06] The event itself has got a buildup.
[1:10] The main thing is they must not get the impression we're going to put our tax reform thing out, which we're not now.
[1:15] I refer again to property taxes, but I don't say what we're going to do about it yet.
[1:19] Right.
[1:20] But otherwise, that's fine.
[1:23] Okay, very good.
[1:25] We...
[1:26] See, McGovern continues his rather wild swings.
[1:29] It's about, you know, the guy's looking, I think, a little damn ridiculous on some of this stuff.
[1:33] What do you think?
[1:33] I mean, first it's the most corrupt, and then it's the most devious.
[1:38] No, the most deceitful, and then the worst.
[1:41] Right.
[1:42] What was it today?
[1:43] Oh, that one in the paper this morning was amusing.
[1:49] I don't know.
[1:50] I don't know something about it.
[1:52] I don't know.
[1:54] I forgot what it was.
[1:56] It's just one a day.
[1:57] That's probably their policy.
[1:59] Yeah, I think that...
[2:00] I certainly think I am right, though.
[2:03] It doesn't, of course, the press loves it because they liked anything that knocks us, but on the other hand, it's got to turn off some of the people.
[2:11] That's my view, at least.
[2:12] In other words, I think a fellow like Potter really is concerned that it does turn off people.
[2:17] That's my word.
[2:17] No, I think so, too.
[2:19] You know, when he, like you said, at Chicago...
[2:25] referring to the sheerest kind of demagoguery.
[2:30] Oh, yeah, that one.
[2:32] I think he said it.
[2:33] Oh, incidentally, that was great, though, for him to talk about amnesty.
[2:36] Sure.
[2:37] Yeah, that's right.
[2:38] I love that.
[2:38] But I'm saying when he refers to you as using the sheerest kind of demagoguery, anyone who's been watching him...
[2:45] I wonder what's he doing.
[2:45] Yeah, that's right.
[2:46] And I saw TV last night.
[2:49] They pointed out that they were redoing their television commercials, and they said they were going to be rough.
[2:55] Well, you know, I don't think that people spark to that because he has a presentation and a posture that is not becoming to him when he uses these words.
[3:10] He doesn't feel comfortable with it, does he, Ron?
[3:12] Well, I think he probably feels psychologically comfortable with it.
[3:16] No, no, no.
[3:16] What I meant is he's got that—he's basically—
[3:19] That's sort of an effeminate type.
[3:21] That's right.
[3:22] There's no question about that.
[3:23] An effeminate type does not attack well because it sounds like a sort of a shrewish woman.
[3:28] That's right.
[3:28] Really, that's a shrewish woman.
[3:29] He's whining.
[3:30] I listened, going home to the radio the other night, WTOP grants 15 minutes of, you know, air time for people to air their views.
[3:39] And they used an excerpt of one of his foreign policy speeches that he gave about, oh, two weeks ago.
[3:46] And we were riding along in the car, and I was listening to WTOP news, and this came on.
[3:50] And I thought, well, this is ridiculous, WTOP giving this much coverage.
[3:53] But then it ended up it was one of those, you know, time spots.
[3:57] But in listening to him for 15 minutes talk, it is very grating.
[4:01] And, you know, the harshness of his language.
[4:04] No spark or no spirit that he whines on.
[4:09] And then the news, you know, came back on, and they covered a couple other events and covered him somewhere else, and his voice was on again, and the driver, the sergeant in the car said, Mr. Ziegler, do you mind if I turn this down a little bit?
[4:22] Because it was getting on the guy's nerves.
[4:26] Did you talk to Cronkite, incidentally?
[4:27] Yes, I did.
[4:29] Let's see, what did he say?
[4:31] Did he say they had him in government already?
[4:33] No, no.
[4:34] What he said...
[4:35] I really want to know the truth, you see.
[4:36] I mean, if he wants to level with us, we might do his program.
[4:38] Well, he was leveling, I think, the trap discussion.
[4:41] What he said, he said that he realizes, and he seemed sincere when he said this, he realizes that you're busy here at the White House and so forth.
[4:48] Yeah.
[4:49] And...
[4:50] But that was, of course, he was leading up to make his point.
[4:52] He said, Ron, he said, I think that there are a number of issues that can be discussed and covered better in a one-on-one situation than can really be covered in a mass conference.
[5:01] He said, I don't think the mass conference really, you know, brings out a lot of the details on issues and so forth that can be brought out.
[5:12] And he said that's why he called you to suggest...
[5:16] And then I said, well, how much time do you have in mind?
[5:23] And he said, well, a half an hour, an hour.
[5:26] I'm very open on that.
[5:27] He said, of course, I think it would be enough to go for an hour.
[5:31] He said, but he's open.
[5:33] Then we talked about...
[5:36] the fact that you would only do a thing like this live and unedited that has been your policy and so forth and he said that can be used that's the way i would want it and i said well i guess you've already talked to mcgovern and inline mcgovern up he said oh no uh he said uh he hasn't and uh i said well under this procedure i guess mcgovern would follow us he said no he said matter of fact he said he hadn't given that much thought but he said he recalled in 1960
[6:02] You were very gracious, apparently, when he talked to you about this, as to whether or not Kennedy or you would go first.
[6:08] And he said the president at that time said that didn't matter.
[6:10] He said, I remember that very distinctly, and I'm willing to return the favor.
[6:16] And to do it however you would want it, if you were interested.
[6:19] He said, the way I do it, Ron, he said, we just tell McGovern that that's the only date we have available for him to go on, and that would be before the president.
[6:28] I'd have to go on a second.
[6:30] Yeah, that's what he said, and he said that he would... Also, I'm busy with the Congress.
[6:35] Right, that's right.
[6:37] Then I made the point... You make the point that he couldn't take excerpts from running...
[6:42] Right, and he...
[6:43] Yeah, I talked to him about that and running them face to face.
[6:47] And he said, no, he wouldn't do that.
[6:49] He set up any ground rule and do it on any basis that we would like.
[6:54] And I said, well, that's something if we do develop an interest.
[6:57] And I made the point about making recommendations to him and so forth.
[7:00] Also, you made the joke.
[7:02] made the point that we, the other networks, how do you think we could get around that?
[7:05] Well, I told him, I started the conversation by saying, well, we have a number of requests similar to yours from not only the networks, but from the wire services, major publications, P.I.
[7:15] Audio, and the rest.
[7:16] And I said, I have to evaluate this in that context.
[7:18] And I said, you know, how would we deal with the other networks?
[7:23] Well, of course, he replied, Ron, I'm asking this on a CBS one-on-one exclusive, of course, talking from a self-interest.
[7:32] And his proposition, of course, is a CBS exclusive.
[7:36] All right.
[7:38] Well, we'll think about it.
[7:40] No matter how you shake it out, it comes down to the fact that it's a Walter Cronkite interview with McGovern and then a Walter Cronkite interview with the president.
[7:52] I think we have to look very carefully at whether or not the promotion of that event
[7:57] And then the interviews, no matter how widely spaced, how that would elevate McGovern.
[8:05] I think we'd want to assess that very carefully.
[8:08] Even though he would... Of course, if they put his on right now, and then we'd do ours the last week, that's what I'd have in mind.
[8:15] Well, I talked to Cronkite about the spacing, and he had not even made this proposition to the network.
[8:21] He hadn't, you know, thought about blocking it.
[8:23] The only way I would do it would do it the last week on the basis that I'm too busy to do it for them.
[8:27] Right.
[8:27] Anyway, it's interesting.
[8:31] It is.
[8:31] All the other networks, but do things for them.
[8:34] Well, you see, one of the things in the rotation of our one-on-one NBC would be the next up, and that doesn't bother me one damn bit.
[8:41] NBC, we aren't going to give them.
[8:43] That's what I mean.
[8:45] And we could tell Smith that we'll give him the first thing after the election.
[8:49] Well, Smith would understand, I'm sure.
[8:51] Are you really telling that?
[8:52] Yeah, I would.
[8:53] That he could have the first crack that we're going to do?
[8:56] The one-on-one isn't a bad idea anyway.
[8:58] They'd like to give him the first crack out to the election.
[9:01] But when I was talking to Cronkite, I sort of, you know, we went through the details of how you would do this and what he had in mind, and then I said, well, how would you handle the time thing?
[9:10] I suppose you've already covered this with the governor.
[9:12] Yeah, I see.
[9:13] Good.
[9:14] Drew him in that way, and he was...
[9:17] He knows.
[9:18] He knows, and he knew.
[9:19] You don't think he's already offered to McGovern?
[9:21] He tells me, and I ask him that precisely.
[9:23] I said, well, I suppose you've already talked to McGovern on this and had him lined up, don't you?
[9:27] He said, no, no.
[9:29] He said he wasn't going to talk to him until he had an indication of our interest.
[9:34] I suppose he's telling the truth, but you really never know.
[9:39] It would be quite a coup for Cronkite, you see, and I think that's why he made that personal call, what he referred to as a personal call.
[9:48] But I was not brusque with him, but I let him know in a subtle way that he went around a little bit.
[9:57] I've got a memo into Haldeman with these details.
[9:59] Right.
[9:59] Oh, that's fine.
[10:00] That's right.
[10:00] I've got the word.
[10:01] I have it down on paper.
[10:03] Oh, that's fine.
[10:04] That's fine.
[10:04] That's fine.
[10:07] Well, good.
[10:08] Well, I think on balance that despite our, you know, I was talking to Colson and Haldeman a little about this later.
[10:19] I think that we may tend to have been a little bit too rough in terms of evaluating the
[10:26] The office thing is what TV does.
[10:29] If you don't let them do it live, they aren't going to give you one hell of a lot.
[10:32] They're going to give you a couple of hooks.
[10:34] But the point is, if you look at the whole damn thing, it certainly gave us a pretty dominant news position on some things that we wanted, and I think we can't complain about that.
[10:43] No question about that.
[10:45] Total impact.
[10:46] Also, it is very good with the columnist and the rest.
[10:50] I mean, they're going to
[10:51] I mean, when they wind around, I mean, when you've had one of these things right now for a couple of weeks, they won't say anything about not seeing them.
[10:58] That's right.
[10:58] Right?
[10:59] That's right.
[11:00] I just want to be overcautious so we don't overlook the TB side of it.
[11:06] But I agree totally that the overall impact, the collective impact, the collective news impact of the session in the office was a very good plus.
[11:16] So the experts now have something.
[11:18] They like to be there.
[11:19] Okay, Ron.
[11:20] Okay, sir.
[11:21] Bye.
[11:21] Oh, Ron.