Conversation 147-009

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Hello.

Yes, sir, Mr. President.

Did you get to hear the radio?

Yes, sir, I did.

I thought it was just excellent.

It came through such an easy thing.

I was thinking of how much easier Roosevelt had at these damn fires.

I worked on it all morning.

Right.

Jotted it all in and everything.

I added that welfare thing.

I put that in specially.

Beautiful.

I think every time you stick them on welfare, the better.

And I also added, see, Ray didn't have in his draft...

He just had the $255 billion spending interest, but I added it so that the commitment was for four years, and I had no new spending programs, that is, that would add to the budget.

And also I added the jab at them that their spending programs would add $100 billion to the budget.

I think I've just got to continue.

That isn't partisan at all.

Oh, hell no.

No, you did that, Mr. President, in a... And also with the Congress, I was very, you noticed, so gentle with them.

I said, you know, they're...

I said they're big spenders in both parties.

And that'll irritate the partisans, but it's true.

Well, it makes it harder for them to come firing back at us.

You did that in a very fatherly way.

I mean, you were kind of explaining with a family analogy how the Congress...

The family analogy was written by the...

by the research thing.

That was Ehrlichman primarily.

He has that, and I think it's a beautiful analogy.

Oh, yeah, it makes the point.

But the way you did it following on a discussion of how the Congress works, which most people don't realize, you know, 300 committees, and they're all out there.

And they're all, as I said, they all come for their favorite programs, and nobody looks at the whole thing.

Well, I had Fred Rhodes here in the office with me when it was going on.

Who's Fred?

He did a VA, but he was on the Hill, you know, the head of the...

He's a preacher, isn't he?

He's a Baptist preacher and a hell of a good politician.

Oh, I know, I know he is.

And he was just sitting here rolling with laughter.

He said, I just would love to be on the Hill.

He said, watching those bastards square him.

He said he's putting it to them, but in a way that they can't quarrel with, because it's true.

Everything he's saying is exactly right.

No, I think this, what the reason I called you is that I really think, Chuck, the radio thing is so easy for me, and I have a...

Most people believe a very pleasant radio voice.

It's marvelous radio voice.

You know, I have a low, low, you know, it's fitted for radio, really.

Yes, resonance, very strong.

It's good.

But I really think that doing...

doing a half a dozen of these things, like falling off a log, and you're going to get a story, and they can't say you're not discussing the issues.

You know, you just pull the leg rug right out from under them on it.

What do you think?

Well, the same thing was going through my mind while I was listening, Mr. President.

Why the hell?

I have all sorts of subjects.

I can talk about veterans.

I can talk about farmers.

I ought to make a farm radio.

Absolutely.

That's the way to handle the farmers, rather than to go out to some dust bowl and stand there and talk to a bunch of guys, you know, and

chewing turnip seeds.

Yep.

I love it.

I just think it has all sorts of potential.

And while you were talking, I was thinking of exactly the same thing, that, my God, why not do one of these on all the issues that are really important on the campus?

The thing we might speak to the boys about is that let's get myself a damn good farm speech.

And I'll talk about it, and I'll talk about and take the offensive on the grain thing.

We've added this much to market, sure, this and that.

We're going to continue to expand the markets and the farmers of America's hope, God,

They can make me a hell of a farm speech.

Well, you could do farm, you could do veterans, you could do one on the... Matter of fact, on the farm one, I'm inclined to think, too, thinking of Chicago, that I might just...

just do that from chicago to national radio broadcast from chicago on the farm yep that sort of relates it to the midwest and the rest yep and that gives it an added symbolism so that it's different from the the motorcade thing you see all right i think it's got a great touch to it mr president i i can think of a half a dozen subjects really i mean i can think of even one on the on on labor you could do one on the yeah i'd like well we've done the labor day one did the labor day one which was more yeah

But there are a lot that could be done.

Defense, you can talk about... Oh, we're planning that.

We're planning one on national defense and the American spirit and all that.

But I mean, why not take the gut issues and hit them?

We might even do one on aid to private schools.

Oh, wouldn't I love it.

You know what I mean?

I'd love it.

It'll turn off some, but it again reaffirms my own conviction.

I think if you could have somebody write one on aid to private schools, I'll just do it.

We'll announce it and so forth, and then we just will be talking about it last.

Well, you know, the beauty of this, Mr. President, number one, it zings the TV people, and that's good.

They deserve it, because it's...

But they can't quarrel with radio, because most of them own radio.

That's exactly right.

They can't quarrel with it.

You do it, it carries a hell of a lot of printed press.

The radio stations then have your voice, which they can take and rerun, and I'm sure they'll be doing that all day and all day tomorrow.

your voice has a tremendously strong quality to it when it comes over.

It is calm, moderate, but firm.

You explain things quite well on radio because it's... You can do that where you can't in a speech.

You can't in a speech, that's right.

And I was just reading in the news summary today where people were saying, well, some of the columnists rightly were saying that while we're running a marvelous negative campaign cutting the hell out of the government...

We're not saying what we stand for.

Well, you get bullshit.

Well, sure.

You've said it for four years.

Of course not.

But the point is you get this kind of a speech, and it injects a degree of substance into the campaign, which McGovern isn't doing and can't do.

And I would love to see him try to go to the radio format because his voice would just lose him votes.

And television is too expensive for him.

That's right.

Picking up before a rally is bad.

And he doesn't get the...

I had this feeling as I read this today because I did quite a bit of work on it.

Understand, I worked on it yesterday and today.

Yep.

But no pressure, because when you're not on television, you don't have to think about, God, I've got to get it in my mind, and I've got to look up, and all that crap.

No, and it came through.

Frankly, it came through just beautifully.

Well, I had a feeling I did this one well.

I mean, I did it without a blip.

Well, of course, you can have a blip.

It doesn't matter.

But the main thing was, I think it had an easy, relaxed tone, like the press conference.

Well, and the fascinating thing to me, because it was going on radio, is the way radio promoted it.

Did they promote it?

Oh, God.

My radio turns on automatically when I wake up this morning, and when I wake up in the morning, I heard them this morning saying, today, over this network mutual.

President Nixon will address the nation, and I heard it again on the car radio, and it was on yesterday, and of course... And incidentally, we got in strongly, I mean, I'm holding for later the announcement of actually the scheme as to how we help the old folks on their taxes.

Right.

But we've got to say it twice.

That's right.

I said it in the press conference, I said it again today, and boy, that's a powerful case, isn't it?

Yes, it is.

One million people are $2,000 and paying $300 to $700 in property taxes.

It's wrong.

Well...

I have a feeling it's a little bit like what Scammon said about the press conference, or LaBelle, rather.

It's the president is being heard from, and he's there, and it's in the campaign, and people hear it, and it's good, and yet it really doesn't require any of the risks of campaigning.

It's a great technique.

I think we've really, really, really found it.

And incidentally, let's not worry about what the press says, that, well, he did it at Camp David.

Who cares?

Bullshit.

Who cares?

We're going to get a play on it, and we did the right thing.

Well, I don't think the public gives a damn.

You know, getting back to the other thing about scammers, I was just thinking a little bit more about the Harris thing.

I think that...

Certainly, if Harris had found any slippage, he'd have reported it, because his ass is out there, too.

That's right.

Oh, no.

But he really feels that the guy isn't catching on.

Isn't that it?

Yes, sir.

You know, Chuck has got to kill those bastards.

Well, we did a little dirty trick this morning.

Of course, everybody should say we expect the Harris Bowl to show a 10-point closing.

Is that what you did?

No, what we did is we had someone from the Chicago Tribune Syndicate phone Gary Hart and tell him that the spread is going to be 19 points, and it's great news for McGovern because he's gaining rapidly.

I hope that he will go out and have a press conference and talk about the closing of the polls just before the damn thing hits.

Monday's showing that it'll sandbag him.

Jesus, it'll sandbag him.

Sandbag him always, that's right.

Oh, hell, you know, what it'll do, it's got them all...

That's why your speech today was so beautiful in talking about this isn't partisan.

There are big spenders in both parties.

I love that line.

Oh, God.

Just brilliant.

If you would get ahold of Bryce Harlow, if you would, and say, please note that, and he ought to point that out to George Mahon and Wilbur Mills.

The president put that in because of them.

Mahon and Mills, yeah.

Do you think so?

Yes.

Because he just wanted to be sure that we didn't have any illusions about this thing.

Maybe, is Bryce the best?

Yeah, no, Bryce is better than, from the outside rather than from the inside.

Oh, yeah, Bryce is by far the best.

Bryce could say, and to Carl Albert, he could say, look, you know, he just wants to be sure you fellows understand.

And Russell Long, call him, too.

You notice the president mentioned the Senate Finance Committee as being among the responsibles.

And, you know, they love it.

They love it.

And they...

They have got to be sick of McGovern.

They have got to be sick of him, believe me.

Oh, hell, they're running away.

They're dying, aren't they?

They're running away from him like a plague, Mr. President.

And I really think the campaign has reached a point where we've really solidified, you've really solidified the support you have.

He has gone so wildly desperate that I have just a feeling he's liable to start slipping even more.

I mean, that...

I don't think he's slipping at all.

Well, that crack today about...

demagoguery?

No, the crack about the Ku Klux Klan.

I never can get that right.

I didn't hear about that one.

Oh, hell, he says the Republican Party is like the Ku Klux Klan.

That's like Rom-Romanism and rebellion.

Some of our people really are.

Javits ought to hit that.

Well, Bob Dole went after him this morning with about as tough a statement.

How the hell are we for the Ku Klux Klan?

What do we do?

Well, because here's what he did out on the campaign trail yesterday.

He said, I have evidence that...

certain high Republican officials are paying blacks not to vote.

And then the press said to him, what evidence do you have?

And he said, I have reliable reports, but I can't give them to you because I have to protect my informant.

And they said, this is right in the Washington Post, they said, wait a minute, Senator McGovern, that's the same thing Senator McCarthy did.

And the press really, apparently, went into them hard.

This is bad, though.

This is bad.

Because, God damn it, we've got our faults, but we wouldn't do that.

Well, of course, of course.

But the point is that...

Listen, wait.

Let's have a substantial black take him out on that.

Mm-hmm.

Who could we think of to do that?

We've got some good blacks in the House.

We've got some blacks at our committee.

But, let's see, the best one, basically, is the guy over at defense, you know?

You know what I mean?

The guy that was in charge of... Johnny Johnson?

No, no, no.

Oh, Christ, no, no.

Nice fellow, but the other fellow is the guy... Oh, Chappie James.

Chappie James.

I think James... What the hell?

He has a problem as a military officer, but... What the hell with his being military?

He just goes on and he says, I resent this deeply...

You know?

Why not?

Maybe I can get him to do it.

I'll talk to him.

He'd love it.

Oh, he loves to do it.

He's been always held down by the Pentagon.

Oh, how would he love it?

Well, if I can get him to do it.

This is a damn lie, and I'm not going to get into politics, but I'm not going to allow my race to be maligned.

Mm-hmm.

Well, the guy, you know, he's going beyond the pale.

Oh, yeah, way beyond the pale.

What do you think of the demagoguery thing that he made, that I was a demagogue?

I love it.

I don't know what the Christ I said.

Oh, I love it.

But demagogue about amnesty, right?

Sure, I love it because he's on there in the most defensive posture.

I watched it on the late news last night.

He was defensive as hell.

It was obvious that we stung him with that amnesty thing.

And what he's on there doing is defending his position on amnesty.

Amnesty, all I put is in one sentence, one phrase, remember?

I'm opposed to amnesty.

Which is fine.

And here he whooped.

Of course, for him to suck to the bait like that just shows you the desperation that there is.

And he'll suck to the bait on this $100 billion increase in taxes, too.

Oh, I think you got him today in a couple of places.

It's a tax increase in history.

That's what I said, you see.

The thing that is killing him, Mr. President, is that he can't get at you.

And every time you feel like just lobbing one at him, it gets him right where it hurts, and he knows that.

And so he goes, instead of ignoring it and staying on his campaign... You see, we've thrown him off stride, I would gather, I would estimate, a dozen times that I can remember since the 1st of September, we've thrown the guy off stride.

And what it means is that as he starts to try to build any kind of momentum behind his campaign...

You let him have one of these, and Christ, he sucks for it every time.

That speech that he gave in Cleveland was a direct result of his being hit day after day on defense and foreign policy.

So, boy, he gets out and gives a speech which is totally unbelievable.

I mean, it's really being laughed at.

Really?

By whom?

Oh, yeah, by the press corps laughing at it.

And when Rogers takes him on on it on Tuesday, I think you'll see it.

Well, Howard K. Smith took him out on it last night.

What did he say?

Well, Howard said that it was a tough choice because we weren't handling domestic affairs very well.

He panned it on welfare, which I expected.

Oh, sure.

But then he took McGovern out on his defense about his international speech in Cleveland and said, you know, that basically he doesn't understand the world problems and has a disastrous international policy.

It was...

it was a cut at him that was hard on welfare of course as you know all the libs are for this but i think the key line that i wrote into this speech was the one where i said that i want this country to be generous on welfare for those that cannot help themselves but i have one principle that will always guide me that in helping those who do not work we must not raise the taxes of those who do

By God, that gets to our constituency.

Does it ever.

That's well, of course, that is.

That is such a marvelous line and such a quotable line.

I want to get our people using that because that is just... Just stick it to them.

No, that just brings them right out.

Make it appear that they're advocating all that, which they are.

Sure they are.

Well, you made the point of the various welfare proposals that our opponents have made that would put millions more on welfare.

And add billions to the cost.

Right.

Now, that was a masterful speech.

Let's let them have a little fun with it.

They'll squeal.

You'll hear the damnedest squeals about this.

Oh, they'll rise to the bait.

They'll rise to the bait.

That's the point.

Let them rise to the bait.

Let them discuss welfare.

Let them talk about their $1,000 program.

Say, well, it really doesn't require it, so we're going to get it out of the oil man.

We'll see.

Well, the beauty of this whole technique was really essentially four weeks left.

uh... and i think you can do this in other radio speeches the beauty of this is it does it breaks the stride of his campaign it really does and it's important that we continue to force him uh...

At every turn, and I think we're going to start getting more help from the press, I really do, from what Clawson tells me this morning.

What's he say?

Well, he just says that the way he handled that McCarthyism thing yesterday, he's just got them all pissed off.

And the way Greider wrote that piece in the Post this morning, you could tell that they're just... You mean the idea that he had information, but he couldn't reveal his sources?

Yeah, and then they said, how is that different from Senator McCarthy?

Well, they said, how is that different from Senator McCarthy?

And he said, well, in the case of McCarthy, he was lying, but I'm telling the truth.

Well, they just look at him and say, you know, come on.

That's really, I mean, that is so far beyond the pale that... That we're paying Negroes not to vote?

Yeah.

Not for Christ's sake.

How the hell could you do that?

Well, it shows you how desperate the guy is.

He's incredibly desperate.

But I think the...

I really think, Mr. President, that...

But the strategy, I just have this, I really have a strong feeling that this guy now is going to be unable to pick up stride of any kind because he's showing the tendency.

You must remember, his big punch now, Chuck, is Monday and Tuesday on this Vietnam thing.

And our great mistake will be to defend.

What we have to do is to attack the hell out of him for wanting to turn the country over to the communists.

That's all.

Well, we have just delivered to his headquarters... Bug out.

White flag.

We've just delivered to his headquarters, Mr. President, a copy of Monday, you know, our Republican National Committee publication.

The cover of it has a headline, Advanced Copy of McGovern Plan to End the War in Vietnam.

And on the whole front cover is a cartoon of McGovern standing with his hands up, surrendering.

It's a cartoon, but it's very acutely done.

And I had one of our young fellows just walk it over, and of course it'll send them into orbit.

This is the kind of thing that they can't control themselves when they get hit like this.

So you will see him.

By Tuesday night, he will be defensive on this issue.

Well, I figure he's going to make a little yardage because he'll talk about the bombing and all that.

And it's true.

Who knows what all these things are going to accomplish.

But the main thing is we must not answer.

We must attack him.

He wants to turn the country over to the communists.

That's the only issue.

On defense, it isn't whether or not jobs are going to be lost.

I mean, that's good for Laird to say, and that's very good at local areas.

But nationally, the question is,

on defense is going to make a second to the communists that's the thing that grabs people exactly exactly now and turning turning the south Vietnamese turning the country over to the communists after we fought so hard 17 million people over the communists and they already killed a million and that just uh frankly that just that just guts them when we do that and we have a

We have a whole series of speeches set for Monday on that.

We have Larry on board tomorrow.

It would have been able to follow up at all on my thought that we ought to get some Vietnam ads ready.

I mean...

I talked to Holtman.

The group never did get anything.

No, they didn't.

And I talked to Holtman.

We've got to get ready now.

That's what we need.

That's going to be the issue.

Well, I talked to Bob this morning, and Bob said that he was going to have a meeting this morning to see what they could do.

He said he doubted.

He doubted they could do it.

But he's working on it.

His feeling, Mr. President, is that we shouldn't jump at something that Bob feels, well, I shouldn't quote how he feels about it.

I think... Well, I don't want them to get a big issue going and then us have nothing running in return except speeches.

Well, I think... And another thing, too.

The reason, Chuck, they didn't have an amnesty ad, they don't believe in that.

Oh, well, I know that.

The reason they didn't have an ad, don't turn...

don't turn the country over to the communists, they don't believe in that either.

That's our problem.

We've got people in the advertising group who basically don't agree with my views.

Well, if you promise not to quote me, I have to tell you that that's exactly the problem.

I've argued with these people until I'm blue in the face on some of these issues, and I know I've made myself a little unpopular, but I think the

We could do it.

Well, we'll see.

It ought to be done.

Well, if we can't do it, we can't do it, but it's a great mistake.

Well, it's the problem you're talking about, the argument on amnesty that is made.

We're going to lose the young, I know, the Jews.

I know, right.

Right.

I don't agree with it.

Let's lose the young and the Jews.

We're going to get a hell of a lot of others.

You're just going to get millions of blue-collar... Four and a half million people were drafted to serve.

Two and a half million to two and a quarter, three quarters, went to Vietnam.

Now, Christ Almighty, we're going to talk about these four or five...

hundred maybe a three four thousand at the most that deserted and the rest and said that's what we're concerned about they're crazy well as lowell weicker said he goes around talking about them as the cowards who've abandoned the country and he brings people right out of their chairs right and there's a lip who and he does it by gut to all kinds of audiences and gets the same reaction we get this though our own group the whole domestic council the whole bunch they just don't agree with the issue

Well, you're talking what you're talking about, Mr. President.

Bob does, of course.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, Bob does.

The others don't.

Well, Bart Holman does completely.

Oh, hell yeah.

But what it is is gut political issues.

That is a gut political issue.

You don't have to limit it to the people in Vietnam.

Hell, millions who went in Korea, the World War II generation, everybody remembers.

They all went and they served their country when it was a pain in the ass.

And what about these jerks who run off to Canada?

Well, they're going to go to jail.

I don't think I'm any...

I don't consider myself necessarily very unsophisticated, but the goddamn issue makes me furious when I think about it.

I saw a hell of a lot of people go that didn't want to go.

So I'm dying.

It's a...

Anyway, let's go forward on some of the... We'll be thinking of going forward on these things, but I think a farm thing, we can pick all sorts of special issues.

Just run something.

Even on those, I said, on...

private school thing.

We'll run a radio speech on it.

I'd love to do that.

That's a good one.

Why don't you sit down and think of about four or five of these.

Yes, sir.

I'll run them regularly.

We'll run to the run of their goddamn ears.

Well, there's 31 days left.

We could get to five or six of them very easily.

Or more.

See, the thing about the research shop, they're thinking that what we really ought to do is to talk in terms of

great hopes for the next four years and which is fine and my vision of America etc etc etc now that's fine that's fine for the columnist it doesn't make one bunch of nothing for the people

No.

People want you to talk about substantive issues.

They want you to talk about... Do they or not?

Totally.

They want you to talk about issues that impact directly on them.

When you're on there today... You talk about your dreams for America, that's fine for a rally speech.

It isn't worth a damn to the average person.

No, and it's fine for the suburbanite in Scarsdale.

That's right.

Suburbanite and the people that write the columns.

We ought to have one on that.

But that's all.

No more.

One is fine.

National goals or the hopes for the country.

But I do think, Mr. President, your speech today, when you're talking about, I do not want to raise the taxes over the next four years.

And I don't want to add people to welfare.

That's people looking four years ahead and saying, well, I agree with them.

That's exactly right.

That's what they want.

Okay.

Well, let's look at the baseball game, okay?

Yes, sir, Mr. President.

Good work, sir.

Thank you.