{"conversationCode":"151-011","tapeNumber":151,"conversationNumber":11,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-151-011","startDateTime":"1972-10-22T14:10:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-10-22T14:16:00.000Z","startDate":"22-Oct-1972","startTime":"10:10 AM","endDate":"22-Oct-1972","endTime":"10:16 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Haig, Alexander M., Jr.;","description":"On October 22, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. talked on the telephone at Camp David from 10:10 am to 10:16 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 151-011 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDST","recordingDevice":"Camp David Study Table","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 151-11\n\nDate: October 22, 1972\nTime: 10:10 am - 10:16 am\nLocation: Camp David Study Table\n\nThe President talked with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.\n\n[See Conversation No. 223-20]\n\n        The President's schedule\n            -Return from Camp David\n            -Meeting with Haig\n                -Executive Office Building [EOB]\n\nVietnam negotiations\n    -Haig’s call to Anatoliy F. Dobrynin\n    -The President’s possible meeting with Dobrynin\n         -Soviet leak\n              -Evidence\n              -Impact on Nguyen Van Thieu\n         -Future settlement\n              -Time\n              -1972 election deadline\n              -Proposals\n                  -Thieu’s future\n                       -Military issues\n    -US-Soviet Union relations\n    -The President's schedule\n         -Forthcoming meeting with Haig\n    -Henry A. Kissinger's schedule\n         -Possible trip to Hanoi\n              -The President’s view\n              -W. Ramsey Clark\n    -Prisoners of war [POWs]\n    -Kissinger's schedule\n         -Timing of actions compared with the election\n    -Settlement\n         -Timing compared with the election\n         -Status\n              -Military\n              -Diplomatic\n                  -Soviet help\n              -US bombing\n         -South Vietnam’s future\n              -Thieu\n                  -Compared with Ngo Dinh Diem\n                  -Future US assistance\n                  -Possible additional deal with North Vietnam\n                       -Political aspect","filename":["151-011.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Haig, Alexander M., Jr."],"prevCode":"151-010","nextCode":"151-012","transcript":[{"start":0.93,"end":2.21,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":2.79,"end":9.98,"text":"I will be back about 12 o'clock or 12.15 from Camp David."},{"start":10,"end":11.58,"text":"I was coming back anyway."},{"start":12.48,"end":17.95,"text":"And I thought that we could get together over at the EOB then and sort of"},{"start":18.22,"end":19.4,"text":"talk this thing out a bit."},{"start":19.88,"end":20.39,"text":"All right, sir."},{"start":20.41,"end":21.67,"text":"You free at that point?"},{"start":21.69,"end":22.51,"text":"Oh, absolutely."},{"start":22.53,"end":22.91,"text":"Okay."},{"start":23.15,"end":26.87,"text":"And I've... Have you done any further thinking on..."},{"start":26.89,"end":29.64,"text":"Yes, I think... Have you talked to DeBreenan again or not?"},{"start":29.9,"end":31.06,"text":"I've got a call in to him."},{"start":31.2,"end":39.95,"text":"He went out for... Now, the only thing that I was thinking there, if you want to play at a higher level, I almost think I might have to talk to him at this point."},{"start":40.23,"end":41.55,"text":"In other words, to keep this lid on."},{"start":42.08,"end":42.27,"text":"Yes."},{"start":42.45,"end":43.02,"text":"And I will do it."},{"start":43.6,"end":44.4,"text":"I mean, I have a..."},{"start":44.73,"end":45.97,"text":"What I have in mind is this."},{"start":46.22,"end":49.9,"text":"I think we just simply have to tell him that, Mr."},{"start":49.92,"end":60.91,"text":"Ambassador, because of what happened and because of your people blowing this, I mean, then show him the papers that this is, Q has reacted as we would expect negatively."},{"start":60.95,"end":66.84,"text":"We had it all set because, that is, he was, you know, so that he could play a part in it."},{"start":66.88,"end":68.92,"text":"But they're going to have a victory celebration."},{"start":68.94,"end":69.54,"text":"They played this."},{"start":69.56,"end":71.32,"text":"He put the whole thing out."},{"start":71.34,"end":73,"text":"And now he's throwing up his hands now."},{"start":73.23,"end":75.24,"text":"We do not think this is permanent."},{"start":75.26,"end":77.28,"text":"We think we can handle it."},{"start":77.3,"end":79.64,"text":"But the main thing is that two things."},{"start":79.76,"end":84.01,"text":"One, we will settle on the basis that we have described."},{"start":84.03,"end":89.79,"text":"Two, we have to have the time to settle, and you must not push us."},{"start":90.45,"end":93.82,"text":"And three, you need not be concerned about the election deadline."},{"start":94.36,"end":98.5,"text":"Because he knows that that's a total commitment that you can pass on."},{"start":99.88,"end":100.52,"text":"Right."},{"start":100.66,"end":101.92,"text":"I'm not sure I would..."},{"start":103,"end":109.08,"text":"My commitment to go along the route outlined because he knows that without you there is no commitment."},{"start":109.88,"end":111.92,"text":"Well, oh, I see your point."},{"start":111.94,"end":112.88,"text":"That'd be dumping him."},{"start":112.9,"end":118.29,"text":"Yeah, tell him we've got to, we will say basically on all the military sides and so forth and so on."},{"start":118.73,"end":121.37,"text":"That's a deal, and we're ready to..."},{"start":121.39,"end":121.89,"text":"Right."},{"start":122.64,"end":128.18,"text":"And we'll see, and we'll work with you to see what we can work out."},{"start":128.5,"end":133.75,"text":"We may have to go our own... We understand that we'll have to go our own way, but we haven't given up on Q."},{"start":133.97,"end":135.46,"text":"We're still working on it."},{"start":135.47,"end":136.34,"text":"We're still working on it."},{"start":136.68,"end":139.06,"text":"But we've got to put the lid on this thing and hold it."},{"start":139.08,"end":145.21,"text":"That's right, and we need... And just say that our relations, the two great powers, must not be affected..."},{"start":145.19,"end":151.52,"text":"by the fact that these two dipsqueaks are acting the way they are, and that now let's keep our heads, and you keep theirs down, and we'll keep his down."},{"start":152.08,"end":153.3,"text":"But that's the responsibility."},{"start":153.4,"end":158.61,"text":"I really feel that if I told him that, that could have quite an impact on him."},{"start":158.63,"end":158.91,"text":"Yes, I do too."},{"start":158.93,"end":159.41,"text":"I do too."},{"start":159.49,"end":161.83,"text":"So you think about it, and I'll be there at 1215."},{"start":161.91,"end":162.31,"text":"Okay."},{"start":162.89,"end":167.98,"text":"And if we think well of it, we'll call him in and just lay it out like that, but we'll talk it through first."},{"start":168.38,"end":168.58,"text":"All right."},{"start":168.85,"end":172.82,"text":"But you had no other thoughts since we've talked."},{"start":173.18,"end":176.99,"text":"The other thing is that I just have a little more thinking about one thing."},{"start":177.01,"end":183.25,"text":"I am just really adamant on Henry not going to Hanoi with this thing in mind."},{"start":183.53,"end":186.49,"text":"Basically, the way it'll look is a complete surrender."},{"start":186.91,"end":187.92,"text":"You know what I mean?"},{"start":188.08,"end":189.16,"text":"It'll be played that way."},{"start":189.4,"end":194.54,"text":"And also, it'll look like Ramsey Clark going to Hanoi, hat in hand, making their deal."},{"start":194.58,"end":196.75,"text":"Sure, we're going to get the prisoners back, and sure."},{"start":197.79,"end":200.63,"text":"But they'll say, what the hell have we fought for, the prisoners?"},{"start":201.33,"end":201.65,"text":"I agree."},{"start":201.87,"end":202.53,"text":"You see the problem?"},{"start":202.66,"end":203.46,"text":"Oh, absolutely."},{"start":203.52,"end":204.46,"text":"He's going to Hanoi."},{"start":204.48,"end":205,"text":"I can do it now."},{"start":205.33,"end":210.8,"text":"I think another part of the game plan, he can make a commitment to go to Hanoi later."},{"start":211.12,"end":211.76,"text":"Later."},{"start":211.78,"end":212.5,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":212.52,"end":215.37,"text":"You know, say, all right, let's meet in Paris, and then he'll come to Hanoi later."},{"start":216.43,"end":216.63,"text":"Exactly."},{"start":216.85,"end":217.97,"text":"And then there's no problem."},{"start":217.99,"end":220.03,"text":"But it must not be before the election."},{"start":220.05,"end":220.78,"text":"It must not be."},{"start":221.34,"end":222.2,"text":"Third point is this."},{"start":223.52,"end":232.99,"text":"I strongly feel that if we could make the case that we really would prefer not to do this before the election, I mean, not just politically, but not to do it,"},{"start":233.34,"end":244.4,"text":"because basically one hell of a lot of people in this country and, frankly, in Vietnam, South particularly, think that we are doing the wrong thing because of the election."},{"start":244.42,"end":244.82,"text":"Exactly."},{"start":244.84,"end":247.86,"text":"And I just think we ought to say, no, we're just not going to be doing it."},{"start":248.04,"end":252.43,"text":"But I think that point has just got to be made, that this isn't the right time."},{"start":253.31,"end":254.97,"text":"That's right."},{"start":254.99,"end":255.47,"text":"No, this is right."},{"start":255.49,"end":262.68,"text":"And in many respects, this has pulled us back from what could have been a more palpable situation."},{"start":262.88,"end":262.98,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":263.4,"end":263.88,"text":"Who knows?"},{"start":264.92,"end":266.32,"text":"But we're going to work it out in the end."},{"start":266.96,"end":269.56,"text":"The main point is we've come a long way on these negotiations."},{"start":269.62,"end":272.53,"text":"As you well know, the war has got to be ended now."},{"start":273.01,"end":276.23,"text":"And we're now at the point where we've got a basis for ending it."},{"start":276.27,"end":278.35,"text":"We know that the enemy's hurting or they wouldn't be talking."},{"start":278.39,"end":280.31,"text":"The Soviets are helping."},{"start":280.63,"end":282.34,"text":"In other words, they haven't got all the cards either."},{"start":283.02,"end":284.54,"text":"And we're still bombing."},{"start":285.28,"end":286.46,"text":"And that's the way it's going to be."},{"start":286.48,"end":288,"text":"And so, therefore, we'll end it."},{"start":288.02,"end":292.87,"text":"But I think the sad part of it is that I just don't know how South Vietnam..."},{"start":293.17,"end":295.03,"text":"I don't see any leadership other than Pew."},{"start":295.17,"end":297.03,"text":"I don't see any other horse."},{"start":297.93,"end":300.58,"text":"Do you see this DM syndrome starting again?"},{"start":301.34,"end":301.62,"text":"No."},{"start":301.88,"end":306.41,"text":"No, he's going to come out of this very, very strong."},{"start":306.47,"end":307.19,"text":"Yeah, he too will."},{"start":307.53,"end":308.21,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":308.23,"end":308.75,"text":"Yeah, I know."},{"start":308.83,"end":310.13,"text":"But then what happens?"},{"start":310.17,"end":313.84,"text":"How can he be strong if we cut off assistance to him?"},{"start":314.6,"end":322.33,"text":"Well, what we've got to do is work with the same parameters we've put on the military side and keep the economic in and"},{"start":323.09,"end":327.6,"text":"Maybe we can work another deal with Hanoi."},{"start":327.74,"end":329.2,"text":"With Hanoi, without the political?"},{"start":329.85,"end":332.79,"text":"Without the political."},{"start":332.81,"end":335.62,"text":"They're hurting so badly, they may pay the price."},{"start":336.22,"end":338.75,"text":"Okay."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Alexander Haig coordinate their strategy regarding ongoing Vietnam peace negotiations and the potential for a direct meeting between the President and Soviet Ambassador Anatoliy Dobrynin. Nixon expresses concern over a recent Soviet leak that alienated South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu and stresses that Henry Kissinger must avoid traveling to Hanoi before the 1972 election to prevent the appearance of a political surrender. The two decide to meet later that day at the Executive Office Building to finalize their approach for stabilizing US-Soviet relations and maintaining pressure on Hanoi to reach a military settlement.","topics":["Vietnam War","1972 Election","Henry Kissinger","Anatoliy Dobrynin","Nguyen Van Thieu","US-Soviet Relations","Peace Negotiations"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T08:54:10.547Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","1972-election","henry-kissinger","anatoliy-dobrynin","nguyen-van-thieu","us-soviet-relations","peace-negotiations"],"audioDurationSec":342,"audioFiles":[{"file":"151-011.mp3","bytes":8197850,"durationSec":341.52,"bitrate":192032,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:33.323Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:55.867Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/151-011.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/151-011","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/151/conversation-151-011","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}