Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 153 › Conversation 153-039

Nixon phone call with Haldeman on William P. Rogers and Henry Kissinger

Friday, November 17, 1972 · 12:40 PM–12:43 PM ET · Camp David Study Table · 4 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob")Conversation153-039 on Tape 153StartFriday, November 17, 1972 at 12:40 PMEndFriday, November 17, 1972 at 12:43 PMRecording deviceCamp David Study TableSourceNixon Library record for 153-039 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and H.R. Haldeman discuss the pending departure of Secretary of State William P. Rogers and the subsequent reorganization of the State Department for the second administration term. Haldeman reports on concerns raised by Henry Kissinger regarding the transition and the hiring of new personnel. Nixon asserts that he will personally oversee all senior appointments to ensure staff loyalty and insists that the terms of Rogers's departure be finalized, emphasizing the critical need for confidentiality to prevent premature leaks.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Did you get the announcement for Ziegler on the Rogers thing yet?
Nope.
We're still working on it.
What's that?
Ziegler's not here yet.
Ziegler isn't here?
Nope.
Have you talked to Bill?
Nope.
Yeah.
I've been talking to Henry.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, hasn't he left yet?
Nope.
Yeah.
Well, let's get this... What is the problem?
Is he raising hell?
No, he's not raising hell.
He's obviously concerned as you'd expect him to be.
How does he want to do?
He wants to win.
No, it isn't so much to win as he wants to—he's concerned about putting it together at this point with Bill Lehrer.
You start moving the new people in, whether you can
really get anything done.
Well, he's wrong about that because we're going to—I'm going to hire each one of them myself.
Well, that's the thing— That's the point.
He doesn't—and I don't—and incidentally, if—I'm sure that I didn't—I hope he understands he's not going to hire them.
Right.
I'm going to haul them in all myself so that there's no question where it is.
There's no problem with that.
See what I mean?
So that they know where the loyalty is.
I told Schultz that.
I got that—I mean, everybody's getting that through.
Well, the point is, it's a moot question.
You've got to get the thing.
We're not going to change your mind now.
Okay.
Yeah.
Or is there some suggestion that we should?
No.
He really accepts it.
I didn't accept any possibility of a change.
No, we can't.
I can't.
Of course, he doesn't believe anything will ever change, and I can't get into – I didn't get into –
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
I know you can't because you're coming back and saying, well, do you believe—you don't really believe that will happen?
I said, I know it will.
Yeah.
Well, the point is, God damn, he'll leak that.
I said the one thing that will cause it not to happen is if it gets out.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Okay.
That's the only way.
Okay, fine, fine.
But all the nice thing is to talk to Bill.
Yeah, that's right, since you get the announcement done and so forth.
But I think it isn't just the announcement.
I think we've got to cut our deal at the same time.
Exactly, exactly.
And the announcement's got to incorporate that.
And as a matter of fact, I see no reason to have to do it at
unless he's ready to cut it.
I mean, are you going to cut it over the phone?
Sure.
Or do it tomorrow, where you could just say— No, do it over the phone.
—and say, I understand that you'll leave with the first, but we will say nothing about that.
Right.
Second, that we will have no appointment, that there will be a reorganization.
as he is in every other department, will make the decisions, all decisions with regard to assistant secretaries and others of that category.
Right?
All appointments.
Right.
Anything else that needs to be said?
I guess that's it, isn't it?
Well, that the line of working control is going to be through the system, not in running.
That's right.
That's right.
Okay, good, Bob.
Thank you.

NARA Description

On November 17, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 12:40 pm to 12:43 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 153-039 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 153-39

Date: November 17, 1972
Time: 12:40 pm - 12:43 pm
Location: Camp David Study Table

The President talked with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman.

[See Conversation No. 226-6]

       Second term reorganization
            -William P. Roger’s tenure as Secretary of State
                  -Announcement
                        -Receipt
                              -Ronald L. Ziegler
                                    -Location
                  -Haldeman’s recent conversation with Henry A. Kissinger
                        -Kissinger’s concern
                              -State Department
                                    -New personnel
                  -New personnel
                        -Hiring
                              -The President’s role
                                    -The President’s recent conversation with George P. Shultz
                  -Haldeman’s recent conversation with Kissinger
                        -Rogers’s departure
                              -Likelihood
                                    -Possible leak
                  -Haldeman’s forthcoming conversation with Rogers
                        -Announcement
                              -Deal
                              -Rogers’s departure
                                    -Timing
                                          -June 1, 1973
                                            -48-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                              Conversation No. 153-39 (cont’d)

                        -Reorganization of State Department
                             -The President’s role
                                   -Assistant secretaries
                             -Line of control

Also recorded on November 17, 1972

  • 226-006 12:40 PM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 12:40 pm to 12:43 pm.
  • 153-040 12:44 PM · 43 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 12:44 pm to 12:45 pm.
  • 226-007 12:44 PM · 43 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 12:44 pm to 12:45 pm.
  • 153-041 12:45 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 12:45 pm and 12:49 pm.
  • 226-008 12:45 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 12:45 pm and 12:49 pm.
  • 153-042 12:49 PM · 37 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 12:49 pm to 12:50 pm.
  • 226-009 12:49 PM · 34 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 12:49 pm to 12:50 pm.
  • 153-043 12:50 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 12:50 pm and 1:04 pm.

All 27 conversations from November 17, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 153-039, November 17, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/153-039 (accessed October 9, 2026).