On November 14, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:40 pm to 3:08 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 153-020 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
I got Sindlinger and— Oh, great.
He was in a—they're having a hell of a flood in New York today.
Oh, is that so?
Yeah, well, big rains, and so I caught him in a train stationer just before he could go into the Bankers Club, but he was really ecstatic.
And I said that we'd been in very close touch and how helpful his things had been.
And he spoke very highly of you.
He said you were one of four people, three of whom are now dead.
You're the only one alive that he
thought knew anything about politics.
So you're probably next on the list to die.
I was going to say, I'd better stay alive if that's true.
Anyway, I told him, too, Chuck, I said, now, I hope that in addition to your—I know you're a very substantial business clientele, that you can do some work for us in government, that Chuck will be talking to you about it.
Good.
So he said, well, yes, I got some ideas.
I got some ideas.
Yeah, he does.
We'll just leave it to you.
I've talked to Schultz about his being used in Treasury, where they really have a legitimate use for him.
Sure.
He's got better sampling techniques than all of BLS.
Yeah, sure.
Put together three ways to Sunday.
BLS always turns out wrong, too.
That's right.
We should put him in charge of BLS.
Oh, good.
Well, he couldn't do it.
He'd be great if he ever could.
He really knows that business.
I think he knows.
Fascinating fellow.
You know, he was the only one that called the voter turnout right.
Yeah.
He had it as a low turnout and— Hoping that it would be higher.
He kept saying— He convinced that if it were higher, we'd have won by his two-to-one margin.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
Did he go into that with you?
No.
Well, he's gone into it with me, and it's an interesting analysis.
But he kept calling us that weekend before saying, do something to get the vote out, do something to get the vote out, because he said, you know, Chuck, we sent out those—we sent out
10, 15 million wires, and we were supposed to have had—I thought that's what the McGregor thing was all about.
Well, I think they did, Mr. President.
I think in the critical areas, the McGregor operation did that.
Yes, we did.
But I think what happened was that's 10 or 15 million.
You're talking about the difference between 76 and 80.
My guess is that in the South, we probably didn't have as big a voter turnout as we should have had.
Well, I know we didn't have it in the North.
In the North, you do?
In key states, we just didn't turn up the number that was necessary.
I talked to—also got Teddy Gleason.
Oh, great.
And he was just elated.
He said, well, you know, you said you deserved it.
He said, I haven't always been with you, but you got guts.
And that other fellow didn't have no guts.
And he said, that's why I was for you.
That really is heartening that I hear him talk that way, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
I'm working on—there's many other things, a couple of letters, form letters.
I was thinking of sending one to all of the labor leaders, both top and all the people that were on our labor for Nixon campaign.
Right, right.
And that's getting the regional guys, too.
I wondered if—now, what I will do is to develop a form.
Then I think you and Rogers, Don Rogers, could take it.
add, you know, personalize to the extent that, you know, like with the Paul Hall, you'll say, well, particularly your terrific efforts in San Francisco paid off.
Right, right.
Exactly.
And Teddy Gleason will do the other thing.
And also, you would know which ones to first name, which ones not, because I can't get into that.
No, no, no.
I don't want to first name anybody unless I'm pretty sure to.
I mean, I don't like to be familiar with people.
because they may appreciate it more.
I think that's right.
No, no, I know the ones that you do know that well.
So I'll work up a form, and it'll get down there in the next two or three days.
All right, sir.
And then you take them, Chuck, and use the...
and use Rogers and the rest to—in fact, you ought to begin preparing the list now with the first names.
We've been trying to pull together various lists of people that helped, and I'll see how the labor one's coming.
I need a labor list.
I'm going to, of course, write a list to all the Democrats for Nixon.
I think each one of them should have a personal letter from me for having come over.
What other people would you suggest in addition?
Well, the— The Wallace.
The Wallace people will be included in those Democrat lists.
That's right.
Let's just let them.
Let's not treat them that way.
Yeah.
What in the hell did you think of McGovern's statement on the election?
Wasn't that the sour grapes crap again?
Well, it's unbelievable, the arrogance of the guy.
I mean, here's a fellow who just got the smallest percentage of a major party candidate.
Neither.
He got that smaller percentage than Barry Goldwater did.
That's right.
And the arrogance of the thing is absolutely incredible.
And of course, it's a tremendously revealing interview, Mr. President, as I'm sure you realize.
I didn't read the damn thing.
Oh, you didn't?
No, no, no.
Oh, God.
If there was ever any question about the wisdom of the strategy we followed, he just confirmed it.
How's that?
What do you mean?
Well, he said that the Wallace thing was absolutely critical, that had he gotten...
You want us to stay in the race?
Yeah, to stay in the race.
Or to support him.
Oh, Christ.
That it would have made 40% of our votes would have gone for Wallace.
And then he said, flatly, he asked Wallace for his support several times.
I mean, Jesus, here's the guy who's the...
The paragon of virtue.
Yeah, and he's going after Wallace's support.
And then he said that he made a fatal mistake and that he should have attempted to answer our charges earlier that portrayed him as...
flip-flopping on the issues.
He said that's what killed him.
Oh, hell.
And if he could have answered, everything killed him.
Of course it did.
But, you know, it's interesting.
We were attacking him, and we were wondering, you know, what impact is it having on him?
Yeah, it had it.
The flip-flop head you got there, right?
And he knows that.
He's now licking his wounds over that one.
He realizes what had happened.
It's also very interesting that he is saying this in terms of the issues.
And
That's what I mentioned to you yesterday, that Shriver was saying, that really it was decided on the issues.
And the ineptness of the campaign, I mean, inept or not, wouldn't have made any difference.
But the arrogance of the guy, the way he talks about the country and the...
in effect says the voters are wrong.
Oh, sure.
Well, it's the closing words of Adolf Hitler, the German people don't deserve me.
The final egomaniac going down to defeat.
And that's just what he's saying, yeah, that the Americans— So much.
So much.
But preposterous arrogance.
God, what a bad man.
Just awfully glad we got him buried and put away for good.
I think he is.
Oh, he's buried.
He's buried.
Although, I think with the way he's talking, he'll fight like hell in that party.
oh my god that's all through this thing he's not about the west wasn't a whole bunch won't they fight hard well what he's saying in here of course is that he's going to stand behind westwood all the way that uh and he's not about to give up his uh control in the party he's the titular head you know that's right and uh he's got these mailing lists you know another fascinating piece in this morning's paper you may have seen that he's got all these mailing lists which uh
are really the most valuable asset to come out of the campaign because they were very— And they were worth lots of money, too.
They were worth lots of money.
He is considering loaning them to the Democratic National Committee for one mailing, but under his control.
Well, now you know what he's doing.
He's playing the game of either you stay with me or else.
And he went on to say that he wasn't really sure whether the Democratic Party would survive.
Well, I would think that would irritate a lot of people like Meany and even O'Brien.
Well, that's right.
And you've got—oh, hell yes.
Certainly, certainly the Southern Democrats would go up the wall.
Yep.
And the good Democrats like Delaney would go up the wall.
Oh, sure.
Well, this guy—the best thing that we can hope for, Mr. President, is we—I really think that—I'm very enthused about the prospect of
of building a permanent new majority.
I just think it can be done.
But the best thing we can hope for is that if for the next two years the Democratic Party stays in the hands of this bunch, then it's all ours.
Because given that much time with the right people doing the right things in our administration, we can lock those.
God, we can lock those.
On the other hand, won't Teddy seize it now?
Or can he?
Well, he's got it.
He's got it.
He's got it on the government.
Sure, but I don't see what he can do with it, Mr. President.
He's got to stay on the kick he's on.
And I don't know whether he can really be part of getting rid of McGovern.
And he's already said he will not be.
He said he wants to stay out of the fight over the Democratic National Chairmanship.
He's got a delicate problem.
Teddy will play the traditional Kennedy game.
hands off until they're ready to take it over.
And you know, in Massachusetts they've never had anything to do with the state party.
They always just leave it alone and make the party come to them.
I think he's going to stay out of all this.
I think there's going to be—but there's going to be one hell of a period of bloodletting because those governors came to town yesterday to tell Westwood to get out and— They really had blood in their eye, didn't they?
Oh yeah, yeah.
You know, it's a very interesting problem that they have, because they're trying to—of course, McGovern's saying that he didn't think that Conley was worthy of coming back in the Democratic Party, and nor were those labor leaders, those labor leaders who walked out on him.
Like Meany.
Like Meany, the hell with them, in effect.
Well, Jesus, you know, that's—I couldn't— They have been capable in the past of having love feasts.
I don't know whether they can do it this time or not.
I just don't know.
But I don't think they've ever had this kind of a cleavage, though.
Maybe not.
Mr. President, I— Maybe not.
No.
You know, when you think back on the various splits in the Democratic Party, they've never had one that's cut this deeply.
And personally better, yeah, but not the total ideological split that they have this time.
Right, right, right.
But this is a very, you know, this is a very
very miserable SOB.
I just love keeping him right out where he is.
One thing, incidentally, I think was a great mistake on his part.
You know, when I lost in 1960, I took a period of six months where I just wouldn't say anything politically.
Not one word.
In fact, it was not six months, four months.
It was the spring.
I remember that.
And then I made a speech in Chicago.
And that's what he should do.
But to pop off right afterwards, he's got a compulsive desire.
Well, he does.
I think he was forced to.
I think his people said, hey, they're up there in Washington with those governors moving in to knock out the Jean Westwood and to take away our machinery.
So I think he's fighting back.
I think he really wants to hold on.
See, then when he says something,
I'd like to be kind of a reconciling influence.
I'd like to do whatever I could to make sure that the wreckers, like Barkin of the AFL-CIO and Meany, don't come back into a dominant role in the Democratic Party.
Why?
Now, my God.
Don't you think that'll send Meany right up the wall?
Well, I've assured that he's seen it.
He's down in Georgia playing golf.
There's a copy on the way down to him.
I want to be sure he reads that very carefully.
He's quite a fellow.
But this really does help us.
Imagine calling Meany a wrecker.
A wrecker?
Yeah.
And Conley, of course, too.
Oh, sure.
Well, Conley, I'm sure he's written Conley off.
But Meany, he should be going on his hands and knees back to the labor movement.
If they had ever been out working—
unified this year, they really would have helped this guy.
They would have turned it into a more respectable contest, that's for sure.
Well, thank God they didn't.
They couldn't.
We had him blocked out.
We're still accumulating the vote, Mr. President.
I won't burden you with numbers because the damn things keep changing every day, but we've now been through all fifty states.
You're going to go over—I'm now as positive as I can be that you'll go over sixty-one.
You think so?
Yes, sir.
Is it—you mean you think it'll go over the—where's it hovering around in that neighborhood now?
Well, on the AP count, it's just below it.
But on our
count, which is based on calling every damn state.
My governor's down to—he keeps dropping, and we keep gaining.
We're up well over sixty-one now—up over sixty-one-one, actually, when we get all the figures.
I don't know if it'll hold.
Give states that are left, though, what's left.
That's the main thing.
Missouri would help, anything that's left there.
I see.
I've got the thing state by state.
According to the Secretary of State, each of the states, Missouri is now 99% in.
Well, why don't they have absentees?
Well, but they're counting, apparently.
I guess they're counting.
Oh.
We now have 99% of Missouri.
We have 1,425,256 votes for 63%.
So that 1% more, we'll get a few there.
Yeah, but we're up over the 60.
With this in, we're up over the 61.
In Missouri, yeah.
In Missouri, over the 61.1%.
No, no, I mean nationally.
We're up there.
Close to 61 and a half, if this count is any good.
Alabama is, oh, but 5% in, 95.
Alaska is 72.
Well, 95 in Alabama, that 5% is ours.
That's, oh yeah, that's Alabama.
My God, that's, Alaska is over 60, is a state over 60, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's 72% in.
Arkansas is 4%.
But I meant,
I meant we are running.
At what pace in Alaska are we running?
59.
59.
Well, that won't help us particularly.
Well, the ones that are left might be ours.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And Arkansas is 4%.
Those will help us.
Colorado, 2%.
That'll help us.
Connecticut, 4%.
That's a 60-40 state, isn't it?
Yeah.
That won't help us particularly.
Unless it depends.
If there are absentees, it could help us.
Could help us.
Oh, yeah.
I think it could.
If there are absentees.
Georgia, still only 92% in according to this.
Well, that's bound to help us.
They'll have the balance by the end of this week.
That's bound to help us, yeah.
Illinois, well, this is 97.
That's what throws me.
We keep getting different figures from these damn Secretary of State's office, so I'm not—I hate to rely on—no, 97 is what AP said also, so I guess that's right.
Vince, whether the 3% are absentees or what?
They're absentees.
They are?
Well, good.
The D's just always run more our direction.
They always have.
They will now, too.
New Jersey, 97 percent.
That's going to be definitely in our favor.
North Dakota, 94 percent.
That amounts to that much.
South Carolina, 97 percent.
So the state of Washington, 94 percent is in.
We're running 57-39.
Schmidt's picked up 4 percent in that state.
I know.
And in Oregon and in California, where it's big.
Yeah, Idaho.
But it's now—I'm totally satisfied if the information that we're getting from these offices around the country is accurate, that you'll go over the Johnson mark.
When do you think they will have a final figure?
They always do have one, you know.
They did last time.
It looks to me like, I'm sorry, the 11th of December before all states will have officially certified.
They have to do it by about then in order to get—
electors no i don't i don't suppose they do as a matter of fact i guess it doesn't matter as long as they is that right uh well they have to certify that the uh which electors have won but i don't think they have to necessarily record the votes for posterity but it's but the last date that i have here of any state certifying is the 11th the papers aren't printing anything new now these days anyway are they they're waiting on the total vote or i i haven't seen anything new on internet well yes i have i keep saying 61 that's the
That's the figure the press have taken, and they've rounded it off.
You think our figure, though, from what we've checked, may be a little bit better than that already?
I think it is, yes, sir.
Could be.
But the things that you have out on balance, or two or three of you would be a little bit down on balance, like anything, like Georgia, South Carolina, Arkansas, New Jersey, would all help us.
But they've got to come our way, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
So that it's bound to approve.
It's been steadily improving.
Every count has been up seven-tenths of a point.
It's been moving up gradually on each one of the official AP tabulations.
So I'm sure it's going to get there.
What does AP have now?
It's just below 61.
Just below 61 last weekend, yes, sir.
60.85.
That was 85.
Nothing new on AP since then.
But you probably have figures they don't have.
Well, I think we do, because we've gone, in each case, right to the Secretary of State.
But you'd think AP would do that, too, wouldn't you?
Yeah, well, they'd probably do their AP bureaus, which means they take newspaper accounts more likely.
That's right.
So I suspect maybe yours is better.
But it looks to me like it'll go over.
As I said, if it doesn't, it's all right.
But if it does, that'll be really a nice blip at the end moment.
If we could get 61.1, what the hell was the Johnson number?
61.1 was Johnson.
No fraction, but if we could get 61.15 or something like that.
Oh yeah, it would give it that all-time frosting.
It would always be, yeah, it would always, it would never take away that kind of a victory.
That just, of course, all that does is
What is your latest, what is your total vote figure now?
I mean, ours and McGovern's.
Well, by our tabulation, Mr. President, it's 46.8 to 28.1.
Let's see, that's 74, 75.
46 million.
800 is what we presently show.
That's what your figure shows.
My figure is right.
But that gets it up to 76 million total.
What does McGovern show?
That's down for him.
Yep.
Why would that be?
Well, because as they go back and check each state, each time they've been getting different totals.
And his are down.
From the original figures that we had, it's also down from AP where they've got him at 28.6.
And they've got Schmidt's at 47.
They've come out very close to AP's total.
Yeah, it's just that obviously in some places they're inaccurate.
That's right.
We called the Alabama Secretary of State twice.
Two people did by accident.
They got different figures, 700 votes off.
I think they're just not that clear in each state yet.
Yeah, right.
The elections are going to be interesting to find.
But 76 million is going to be about, well, I would say.
Our total vote is going to be, what, 46?
Our total vote, Mr. President, will go to 47.
You think it'll go that high?
Yes, sir.
That may be that many.
Even on the, I would say even on the AP count it will, yeah.
It'll go to 47, yeah.
Well, we shall see.
Okay.
Will you work those numbers up?
I mean, those lists up?
I'll get the list ready.
I think the— And I'll just get the form and send it down, and then you can have the letters typed off and vary them a bit, depending if they need to be.
Right.
I don't think that people mind getting a letter, which is a form.
It'll be done in a very sensitive way so that they'll
It'll be highly personalized.
Oh, hell, I had to put Simmons in for lunch yesterday, and he wanted permission to use your telegram, which, of course, we did election night in his magazine.
Now, people treasure this kind of a thing.
I think a letter will be terribly important out in the field, especially when you take a fellow who's never had it in their magazines.
Oh, they'll put it in their magazines.
That's why I want local people that were with us, too, like that follow-up in Pittsburgh, you know.
We've actually, Mr. President, I went over this with Rogers, we have about 500, not just local leaders, we've got several thousand local leaders, but we've got about 500 that have regional significance.
I wouldn't even mind having those several thousand, if they are names on lists that we know are accurate, I wouldn't mind them getting letters.
We know exactly which ones have endorsed us, which ones have worked for us.
Personalizing it will really give it a—that's a marvelous thing to do.
Well, that's what you can do after a campaign.
And we've got the staff now to do it.
Sure.
Much better than we had in 68 when we had to turn the staff to the—
White House stuff.
Hell, they've got those letter writers down there who run the damn things off.
Oh, yeah.
We can do that with Democrats.
We can do it with—and the Democrats' lists are very good.
We can do it with the Labor and some of the ethnic leaders that we got.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Really lock them up.
That's right.
But it tends to lock them when they—our Democratic friends will be out trying to get them back.
Well, that's precisely the point.
This is the time to get them and to keep them in.
And I'm working up some inauguration lists with
Get them all invited in.
Absolutely.
And inauguration and also work up lists for the church services for the other events.
Right, evenings at the White House.
Yeah.
I'm inclined to think, incidentally, to the extent that we do church services in the future, we don't do quite as much, but we do it about once a month or once every three weeks.
I'm inclined to think in order to get more in,
that I'm just going to limit it to adults from now on, you know?
I mean, they love to bring their kids and the rest, but, you know, Chuck, by the time you get through some of those families running six, eight people, it just isn't fair because the adults are what really matter.
As long as the fellow can bring his wife.
Well, that's what I mean.
Yep.
That's the important thing.
And a wife.
And a wife.
Exactly.
But the kids, I think that's right.
A lot of them are too young to really appreciate those things.
That's right.
And it's it.
Yeah, I think that's a damn good point.
And get more in.
That's right.
Got to make that thing go.
We'll figure out various things.
Oh, another thing, as you know, that we have available, which we can use for these labor leaders and so forth, as you know, we've got those three boxes at the Kennedy Center.
Right.
You've used those from time to time, haven't you?
used them quite a bit during the campaign.
Well, I mean that those boxes can be used for Kendall's businessmen, for these labor people and the rest, rather than just for administration people.
Don't you agree?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That's just the— If you would watch that, get busy on that, so the box thing just doesn't end up—of course, certainly a cabinet officer, if he wants it sometime, should, but they get other perquisites.
Don't you agree?
I do.
I think just—and for a person out of town,
It means so much to say, well, you're going to sit in the president's box for this or that or the other thing.
Oh, hell, they go back and talk about that for six weeks.
I don't know if you saw the Psyde piece in Life Today or anything.
No.
But that's a very interesting piece.
I don't follow those things anymore.
Well, no, you don't have to.
I gave up on them years ago.
Well, this is kind of interesting because he grudgingly says just what we've been talking about, that Nixon and the new establishment and that we are—
undoing the old one and building a brand new one.
I almost fell off my chair reading it coming from Sidi.
I mean, he doesn't necessarily do it complimentary, but his point is a very perceptive one, that the great masses of Middle America have—you have created something.
And he doesn't call it mystique.
If it were Kennedy, he would.
But he said, you've created something, an aura, that these great masses identify with you.
that what you've really done is to shift the power of the country away from the old establishment into the new establishment.
That's entitled, I think, Nixon.
I don't have it.
Probably Nixon and the New Establishment.
I sent it out to be reproduced because it's exactly what our labor people and our Democrats and our Catholics are thinking.
This is exactly what brings them in.
We've got a lot of tools we can use with them.
I'm going through a
series of things and i'll have some more very specific things to recommend to you in the next few weeks of ways we can really really lock them in keep them there good good okay chuck i'll follow through on this sir thank you mr president