Conversation 154-003

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Hello.

Hi, Henry.

Mr. President.

Hi, how are you?

That reception in Texas really looked tremendous on television.

Well, it was quite a show, yeah.

Boy, they just poured out by the thousands.

Well, it looked overwhelming.

This, of course, was important because this was in the Mexican part that's 85% Democratic and poor and the rest, and so they shake them up a little.

Well, it looked overwhelming.

Right.

They haven't managed to show any droughts, no matter how carefully they've been governed.

I have a problem.

They haven't showed any.

Yeah.

Right, right.

So it looks like a really successful...

I hope they do, because that would certainly help in the talks with the North Vietnamese.

Yeah, yeah.

happen at a better time.

Yeah.

I had a few minor things which I, in fact— Right.

Go right ahead.

One has to do—I have had somebody in my office put together all these sorties, and it now turns out that since May, since you ordered these thousand-plane sorties, they've been dropping them every month, and they're back now to the level of April.

Yeah.

Well, I told you that I've been watching that number.

It seemed to me goddamn small.

Well, you were absolutely right.

Who orders that?

Well, they deny that it's ordered, but one way or the other, they're accomplishing it either by rationing ammunition.

And I was wondering whether you would agree if I told Maura you wanted a report from him addressed to you explaining these figures.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Put it with my signature.

You don't even just say that.

say that I have raised the question with you for the past few weeks, and I want a full report accounting for that, because this is exactly the wrong thing to have happened at this time.

This would really have been... You also better shake them up.

I want a report.

Right, right.

God damn them.

They just burned my tail.

Well, I'm sure there's some deal between the chief and Laird which has to do with money.

Well...

I can't figure out yet how they're doing it, but when you see those figures, I'll send them in to you.

Well, I can almost guess.

But they've constantly dropped in there now at the April level before the reinforcements.

Right.

The second thing is, I thought you might be interested to know, I saw Schuman yesterday for breakfast.

Oh, yeah.

And he had seen the Soviet ambassador.

And the Soviet ambassador had given him an account of my talks with the North Vietnamese.

which he must have gotten from the North Vietnamese, which was very positive in our sense.

And he said the Soviets were very encouraged and every other country should use the influence for the North Vietnamese.

And he said it was one of the reasons, in addition to your message to Pompidou, that made the French back off the North Vietnamese.

Isn't that interesting?

I thought that was really quite interesting.

Isn't that interesting, yeah.

Something may be going on.

Yeah.

Laird is very eager, and he's basically right, to confront these three P.W.s with formal signed orders, ordering them on a military plane.

My worry about that is that if we have a confrontation in front of hundreds of reporters, it's not going to make us look too good.

No.

That's right, too.

And I think what we ought to do... What do you suggest?

I think we should tell them that you're still in the service and we would like you in a medical and, you know, make it available to them.

Mm-hmm.

But don't absolutely insist on it.

Don't command them.

Right.

Because not in Vintia, and when they get back to the States, we ought to scream our head off about the callous exploitation.

Yeah, well, also, when they get back to the States, by God, they are going to go in.

No.

But once they get back to the States, Mr. President, we'll...

will change.

I met yesterday with the POW wives, and they are outraged at the North Vietnamese.

Are they?

Yeah.

They say, are they going to ask us to come next?

What do we do when we are asked to come?

And I thought I was going to have a rough time.

I bet you did, yes.

God, that's really been torture.

Well, I think you're right.

I wouldn't create a confrontation with them.

Well, not when they have television and everybody else.

You're shameful, our American press.

It is.

It is great.

Sons of bitches.

Well, we're going to get them one day.

Well, I think that— The day after this election, they're going to be dead.

Well, they're dying now because they sent it.

Sure.

Well, at any rate, I wanted to congratulate you about your reception.

Well, it was a good one.

It was awful hard work.

I mean, we was there, and then this morning I did a little business, and then I did something at noon today with some young laborers, and I just got to Cab David and Argo.

You're going off at what time, Henry?

I'm going off Monday morning about 10 o'clock, 9.30, 10 o'clock.

But nobody knows it yet.

You're going to announce it.

Oh, in fact, I'm having a...

And when will it be announced then, Tuesday?

Tuesday.

It will be announced that I'm there Tuesday morning, and then Tuesday afternoon, if I stay, it will be announced that I'm staying.

Yeah, yeah.

In the meantime, as you know, I'm going to have to see some Jewish leaders in New York.

Right.

Now, I...

I thought probably I'd better take...

about not giving them things that they can use to hurt the Soviets.

Oh, yes, I know.

Well, I didn't talk to Rabin to explain to him.

I thought maybe, what do you think about having Haig tell him?

What do you mean?

Have Haig tell Rabin?

And have me finesse the questions to Haig so that they don't get it from me.

Right.

But in any event, I think Haig, it might be...

I knew you couldn't...

When I found you couldn't go, I said to Holman, oh, maybe I better... See, I just don't want to be caught saying anything.

No, I think Haig should be there.

Yeah.

I think what you can do...

I had a talk with Travis.

I think what you can do is point out what you've done for Israel.

that's a proper thing to do in terms of the general context.

Oh, you mean Israel?

That isn't what they're interested in?

Well, they're interested in both Israel and the Soviet Union.

Yeah.

So I think you could point out what you have done to preserve the security of Israel.

Right.

And that that has had certain consequences which were very beneficial.

I wouldn't go much further than that.

Right.

Then you can say, of course you have a deep concern for the right of people to emigrate.

Right.

But the specific way to do it, if you are responsible, you cannot engage in so many grandstand plays.

Right.

But that it is being...

I could just say that it's...

In every... We are working on the problem, and you've got to trust me.

That belief...

I just think that's what I'll say.

That you believe will work.

I'm working on the problem, and I've usually succeeded.

You can just trust me.

I'm not going to make any public statements.

I'm not going to grandstand or demagogue it.

That's what I would say.

Maybe something like that.

That's what I would say.

Because believe me, I'm not.

And incidentally, they're going to make a hell of a mistake if they go the other way, because if we win without their support, they're going to look awful bad.

You see what I mean?

I've talked to Rabin.

And Rabin knows this, too.

No, Rabin is totally with you.

The trouble is, there are a lot of... Oh, it's Fisher and that bunch, I know.

And there are a lot of grandstanding Jewish leaders in America.

There are a lot of politicians.

Oh, sure, sure.

We're trying to get...

It's like Adlai Stevenson and McGovern.

You see what he said?

While concurrently telling the Soviets not to believe a word of it, that he had to do it for politics.

God damn, I mean, sometimes that record's got to get out.

I mean, if I were doing this sort of thing, good God, Henry.

Yeah.

I mean, we, oh, well, well, forget it.

I mean, it's on our side.

He called me the other day.

I told Bob there was no reason to tell you.

He said, get out some attacks on Driver.

He said, who won't have the guts to give speeches himself.

He's sending his wife, and who represented the firm of Hammer in the Soviet Union.

who is he to talk about trade?

And he said, if we make such an attack, he'll get it around the Jewish community.

Oh, did he represent Arnold Hammer in the Soviet Union?

Yeah, he did.

I think you really will have a basis for governing after the election is said.

that you have never had.

We've never had at all.

That you presidents have had.

And we're going to use it, too.

That's the other thing.

You've beaten down your opponents alone.

Nobody has had to do that.

And we're going to say it then, too.

Right, right.

Others have had part of the president or the electoral establishment.

No one started in his first year with riots after three months over a war that he inherited.

That's right.

Well, anyway, but I'm so glad you found that bombing thing, Henry.

Because I marked on a couple of things.

I said that's 246 one day.

I said, good God, the weather can't be that bad.

That's when I decided to really get it tabulated and get it tabulated by my own people at the Joint Chiefs.

Incidentally, I want you to follow through and get that ambassador from Burundi the hell, get his ass back here.

Rogers doesn't want to do it because he says the killing has essentially stopped now.

I want to get it back and get a report on what happened.

I want to know what the hell happened.

Right.

I mean, what is the matter with the State Department, Henry?

They've killed 100,000 people.

Are we to callous about it?

Don't we care?

Well, I'm in favor of it.

I just want the report.

I just want to get a report on it.

You know, the trouble is the state just wants to play to these goddamn African leaders.

We're going to put into Rogers' speech at the U.N. some stuff that we...

want more self-determination in Africa and I said absolute nonsense more self-determination would mean more nations that applies they'll apply that to Mozambique and South Africa they won't apply to black states yeah god damn just think 42 countries in Africa 42 countries it's ridiculous and and really it's murdering a bunch of characters yeah well I just my feeling about the Burundi thing

Is it I just, I'm getting back on a sick leave or something.

Let's find out what the hell went on.

Right.

I want to report on it.

That's all.

I'm not satisfied with the report that I've had.

Right.

Okay, Henry.

Thank you.