{"conversationCode":"157-024","tapeNumber":157,"conversationNumber":24,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-157-024","startDateTime":"1972-12-08T17:05:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-12-08T18:12:00.000Z","startDate":"8-Dec-1972","startTime":"12:05 PM","endDate":"8-Dec-1972","endTime":"1:12 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Shultz, George P.; Camp David Operator; Ehrlichman, John D.;","description":"On December 8, 1972, George P. Shultz, Camp David operator, and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 12:05 pm and 1:12 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 157-024 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDST","recordingDevice":"Camp David Study Table","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":"5.2","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part II","chronReleaseDate":"2-Dec-2008","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 157-24\n\nDate: December 8, 1972\nTime: Unknown between 12:05 pm and 1:12 pm\nLocation: Camp David Study Table\n\nGeorge P. Shultz talked with the Camp David operator.\n\n[See Conversation No. 234-16]\n\n       Request for a call to John D. Ehrlichman\n\nEhrlichman talked with Shultz at an unknown time between 12:05 pm and 1:12 pm.\n\n       Second term reorganization\n            -Arnold R. Weber\n                  -Job offer\n                        -Department of Health, Education, and Welfare [HEW]\n                        -Shultz’s deputy\n            -Samuel R. Pierce, Jr.\n                  -Treasury Department memorandum\n                        -Chicago lawyer\n                              -William R. Ming, Jr.\n                                    -Tax case\n                                    -Health\n                                    -Tax case\n                                          -Possible penalty\n                                                -Fine\n                                                      -Compared to jail\n                                          -Pardon\n                                                -Christmas 1972\n                                          -John W. Dean, III\n                  -Ambassadorship\n                  -Circuit Court Judge\n                        -Completion of current work\n\f                                               -32-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM","filename":["157-024.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Shultz, George P.","Camp David Operator","Ehrlichman, John D."],"prevCode":"157-023","nextCode":"157-025","transcript":[{"start":5.21,"end":26.86,"text":"John Ehrlichman, please."},{"start":28.89,"end":30.49,"text":"There you are."},{"start":30.51,"end":30.83,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":31.29,"end":31.49,"text":"John?"},{"start":31.61,"end":32.31,"text":"Hi, George."},{"start":32.79,"end":32.89,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":32.91,"end":36.12,"text":"On Arnie Weber, we're pushed for an answer here."},{"start":36.16,"end":36.66,"text":"No."},{"start":37.18,"end":37.72,"text":"He won't take it?"},{"start":37.78,"end":37.96,"text":"No."},{"start":38.12,"end":38.9,"text":"Will he take anything?"},{"start":40.06,"end":40.51,"text":"I doubt it."},{"start":41.07,"end":50.16,"text":"He might have been interested in ATW, but sensing that somehow he doesn't quite want it there, I think by this time he wouldn't take that."},{"start":50.32,"end":51.56,"text":"Okay."},{"start":52.34,"end":55.47,"text":"He would take probably something."},{"start":56.06,"end":60.24,"text":"I probably could have gotten him to be my deputy, but I don't think it would have been a good idea."},{"start":60.36,"end":61.18,"text":"I get it."},{"start":61.2,"end":61.74,"text":"Okay."},{"start":61.76,"end":62.1,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":62.34,"end":63.94,"text":"I got a couple of other things for you."},{"start":66.71,"end":83.19,"text":"I have a memo from Sam Pierce in the Treasury about a Chicago lawyer, a black lawyer named Ming, who was found guilty of fraudulent behavior on his income tax."},{"start":83.75,"end":85.93,"text":"Apparently he's a brilliant black lawyer."},{"start":86.89,"end":88.65,"text":"And he's guilty."},{"start":89.94,"end":91.06,"text":"He had a heart attack."},{"start":91.08,"end":93,"text":"He's had all sorts of mitigating things."},{"start":93.22,"end":103.63,"text":"And there's a fair amount of pressure for imposing a strong fine but not sending him to jail, I gather."},{"start":104.22,"end":109.44,"text":"that the president is the one who issues these pardons and at Christmas time there may be some."},{"start":110.63,"end":115.45,"text":"So I've got a piece of paper on this which I'll leave with you if you're the proper person to look at it."},{"start":115.47,"end":117,"text":"John Dean processes those."},{"start":117.39,"end":117.78,"text":"Okay."},{"start":117.96,"end":119.46,"text":"Well, I'll leave that with him."},{"start":119.48,"end":122.18,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":124.59,"end":125.07,"text":"Okay."},{"start":127.47,"end":127.87,"text":"Very fine."},{"start":128.07,"end":129.21,"text":"What do you want to do with Pierce?"},{"start":130.27,"end":132.34,"text":"Pierce does not want an ambassadorship."},{"start":132.4,"end":135.28,"text":"He wants to be a circuit court judge."},{"start":135.38,"end":136.78,"text":"I mentioned that to the president."},{"start":137.06,"end":138.88,"text":"He said, well, fine."},{"start":141.21,"end":144.17,"text":"He wants to stay in the department for about eight months or so."},{"start":144.19,"end":147.86,"text":"He's got a number of things that he's doing that he wants to complete."},{"start":147.88,"end":148.04,"text":"Okay."},{"start":148.06,"end":149.86,"text":"And then he'd like to leave and be a judge."},{"start":150.42,"end":151.38,"text":"Okay."},{"start":151.4,"end":153.76,"text":"Very good."},{"start":153.78,"end":153.99,"text":"Thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"George P. Shultz and John D. Ehrlichman discussed personnel matters regarding the second-term administration reorganization, specifically noting that Arnold R. Weber declined potential appointment offers. The pair reviewed a request from Samuel R. Pierce, Jr. to serve as a circuit court judge after completing his current Treasury duties, rather than accepting an ambassadorship. Additionally, they addressed a request for a presidential pardon for William R. Ming, Jr., a Chicago lawyer facing tax fraud charges, which Ehrlichman agreed to refer to John W. Dean, III.","topics":["Second term reorganization","Arnold R. Weber","Samuel R. Pierce, Jr.","Presidential pardon","Judicial appointments","Personnel management"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T09:08:50.169Z"},"topicSlugs":["second-term-reorganization","arnold-r-weber","samuel-r-pierce-jr","presidential-pardon","judicial-appointments","personnel-management"],"audioDurationSec":160,"audioFiles":[{"file":"157-024.mp3","bytes":3840007,"durationSec":159.87,"bitrate":192160,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:33.324Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:56.935Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/157-024.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/157-024","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/157/conversation-157-024","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}