Conversation 157-014

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Congressman Ford, sir.

Hello.

Hi, Mr. President.

Yo, where are you?

I'm here in Washington.

I got back about noontime today.

Yeah, you got a good rest or whatever you're going to do?

Well, I appreciated your telegram up at the Football Foundation.

Yeah.

I, uh...

It was a wonderful evening, and both Rob and I appreciated your telegraph.

Well, I'd like to be at that sort of thing myself, but I can't do it these days.

That's right.

It's been quite a season, hasn't it?

It sure has.

And, you know, when I was just thinking of their picking me,

They're not going to have any trouble, a number one team.

John McKay was there, and he made a great speech.

I've never met him.

He's very clever.

He's got a wonderful sense of humor.

To look at him, you wouldn't suspect it.

SC actually is, I saw the game against Notre Dame on television.

And really the personnel, I mean, they're both big, huge teams, but SC just has a tremendous explosive power.

It's just unbelievable when they start cracking around with all those fastbacks and everything.

I'm glad Ohio State's playing and not Michigan.

Yeah.

Well, Ohio State was lucky to beat Michigan.

Yeah, I think so, but they did.

They held them in the last.

I'm seeing Dole tomorrow.

That's what I called you about.

Right.

He's coming in.

And say nothing about it, but Bush is going to go.

And he's all set.

That's great.

You must have done a real sales job.

Well, I didn't push him that hard.

I said, now, look, you mustn't do it unless you really want to.

And he went home, talked to his wife and so forth, and told him what the challenge was and so forth.

And he's all set.

And, of course, I told him about the talk you and I had and how you felt about it.

And he, of course, wants to be sure to work under a new scheme.

But you, of course, agree.

And so if we can get the right men on the other side, I don't know what's going to happen in the Senate.

But I suppose, Brock, do you have any further report on your fellow?

How's that stand?

We're in a little difficult situation.

It's going to work out.

But Dan Kirkendall, Mr. President, was just

explosive and he's given me hell and he says he's going to fight for it and he says he's going to beat us well he's not going to beat you i think that's well the point is if if the word gets around jerry that brock is going to get the senate one you just can't have two from tennessee that's right you know that's just just one i mean everybody does see that aren't they

I mean, we know there may be other reasons, but that's a damn good one if you want to use the others.

Well, I think we've got to play that a little low-key because, for example, Bob Wilson and George Murphy came from the same state.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a different situation, I think.

It's a hell of a lot bigger state.

Yeah, I know, and it's not a southern state.

Right, and...

We're trying to cool Dan down.

We've made some headway and Bud's ready to go out and campaign.

Is Bud the one you're going with rather than Conable?

Right.

Because Barb's got... Barb Conable has to devote 100% of his time other than this research thing, which doesn't take too much time.

Yeah, it's going to be a hard year.

And he's the best man on there right now.

Absolutely.

And Bud Brown wants it.

Will he give up that one committee?

Yes, no question about it.

That's the stuff.

You know, you'd have a team like that.

What I would do, just as soon as, of course,

Even before they selected Bush, we could start working with him, because he won't be selected until the 19th, because if Dole steps out, which now seems to be the play, he will come in and tell me that he recommends him, and then he'll go out and tell the press he's recommended him, that I've called him so far.

Then we'll... Will that come tomorrow?

Well, yeah, that's the present plan, unless something falls between the two, between now and then, but...

Presently, Dole's scheduled to come for that purpose tomorrow.

He's been home to Kansas, and he's worked up things there.

And the way I want to do it, because it's best for him, is that he comes in and says he's checked around, and he first feels we need a full-time chairman.

Second, his recommendation is Bush.

Third, I will then call Bush, and I already know Bush will say yes, and Bush will say yes.

And then fourth, I would hope Dole would walk out to the press corps here at Camp David and, whether it's a hell of a bunch of them, and say, I say this, and I'm going to recommend Bush.

Mr. named Congressman Bush, and he has the president's support, and I'm sure he'll be elected.

That'll be it.

Then I think as soon as that's done, I would be glad to, I guess we can't assume the Brock thing yet.

And when will you elect?

I'm just trying to get this thing moving, Jerry, as quick as we can.

Get Bush sat down.

When's the earliest you can get Brown elected?

Our earliest would be probably within five days after we reconvene.

Oh, yeah.

Because we have to appoint the members of the committee on the Congressional Campaign Committee, and then they do the electing.

I get it.

Now, then, we can't do that until January 3rd when people are sworn in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we can get some campaigning started.

Yeah.

Now, I should tell you, up there last night, I ran into George, and he, in effect, told me what he said.

And I ran into John Mitchell, and we had a few drinks and talked.

Good, good.

They all know.

Right.

Good.

Well, that's good.

Well, of course, I had told George how you felt, you know.

Right.

In fact, there's only one other mention that I talked with about it.

It was Barry.

He told me, but I didn't tell him I got it yet because Barry's like to tell somebody.

But, you know, I just want to be sure that I don't mind it getting out, except I want Dole to get the first play on it, you see, because it gives him the honor and so forth of doing it his way.

Well, I think it's great the way you've got it.

plan for tomorrow and then that helps us frankly will it yes it will and you see you got a you got a full-time man there and he's going to work his butt off he's got and i've told him i said now look your job is to your job basically is above everything else is to uh work on work on uh

candidates for the house and senate and he's you know what i mean work in that area and building up support for candidates you know around the country so he's all he's really on target it'll be very helpful to us in our problem and it means the beginning of the election of a team that will have a totally new image that's right and that's what we want as we move ahead and the quicker they're

Yeah.

If you get the three together, as soon as I get them, I'll get them in to have a talk.

Now, it's going to be a little delicate, but what I think I'd like to do, Jerry, is to have the three, the three B's and U put together to talk.

Let me say, candidly, I'll arrange some other way to have Hugh, but he doesn't quite fit that pattern because he's got various...

as you know, games he's playing with various candidates, you know what I mean?

I understand.

And you don't have that problem.

You don't give a damn who's elected as long as he's a Republican.

Right.

And so I think what we'll arrange is something in the way of a, well, we'll put it this way.

I think you ought to stay very close, let me put it this way, to Bush at the beginning, right from the beginning.

Start a very close relationship.

I will.

And then I will make it a point, Bush is going to be my political man, in effect.

and i'll make it a point then just as casually we'll get together and i'll i'll make it a point to handle the scott thing by just seeing him separately sometime does that sound all right to you yes we're going to have to have some damn confidential discussions for example on the brock side about senate candidates and some of those discussions are not ones that frankly that you should should be in on well i'm closer to the other three than

Well, of course.

And we see you have an ideological pattern that's pretty good here, too.

People think that Brock is much more conservative than he really is.

Bush is about where you are, and Brown's about where you are.

And of course, the interesting thing is, so am I.

So we've got three people.

Brock building a little to the right, but not too far.

But Brock brings that great

thing with the youth, which we could use.

So we just may get a team going here that could change the whole Republican scene.

Well, I'm enthusiastic about it, and we may have a little problem up here, but we'll solve it.

Yeah.

What can you do for Kirkendall?

Well, I just got an idea this afternoon of, I appointed last year, two years ago rather, John Kyle to be my assistant on the floor, and he did a lot of

chores that gave him exposure and gave him prestige.

And it came to me this afternoon that this is something I could very well use Dan in if he was interested.

And if he isn't, well then we'll have to just battle it out.

But this is something

that is important it is extremely helpful to me and it gives prestige exposure to him another thing too you can do it on another ground after all les is a lot older than he was right and you know what i mean that you sort of need somebody that can sort of help you with some of those things yeah i think that makes a lot of sense well i'm going to start working on that all right

But I'll wait until after this other announcement.

Sure.

Well, all these things take that luck.

We find as we move these cabinet people around, you've got to save some face.

I mean, they've got to be ambassadors or offer this and that.

And in the end, it works out.

At least it works out a hell of a lot better when we're in office and when we're not, I can assure you.

At least we've got some jobs.

Oh, my God.

You did mention to me that John Volpe was going to get this other thing.

That's being announced tomorrow.

I see.

Is he?

Italy.

It is.

Italy.

It'll be announced tomorrow, too.

Volpe will be announced tomorrow.

Yeah.

The only reason it wasn't announced earlier was that we had to get the, you know, the agrément from the Italian government, which they were delighted to give, but that has to be done.

But Volpe is just as pleased as Pontius wants to go, and he'll do one hell of a job.

Well, I agree.

Yeah.

He really worked his fanny off as president for everybody.

And he's going to go, and I've told him that I expect him to do a lot of traveling back to the United States, which he's delighted to do.

But, you know, he just loves that country, and it also gives him something else.

He'll be in Rome, have a chance, you know, he's a very devout Catholic.

But Volpe is just tickled to death.

Well, I'm delighted.

I think he deserves a lot of recognition.

Right, right, right.

And he's going to be very happy.

It'll be announced tomorrow.

Are you going to announce his successor tomorrow, too?

Yeah, the successor will be Brenneker.

for whatever it's worth.

He also happens to be an Irish Catholic.

A business from Los Angeles.

Young, about 41, two years ago at age.

He's the next in line at Union Oil.

But he is basically, rather than on the oil side, he's in the civil engineering side.

He's a brilliant young chief executive.

He's going to be a real goer.

Brenniger is his name.

Sounds good.

Yeah, we want to bring in, we're trying to bring in some young guys to live in this thing, and he's one of them.

Well, between Brennan and Brenninger, you're going to have... We've got the Irish.

The real problem we're having, finally, is we've been trying to find another Italian, and they're just damn hard to find because they're either in very good jobs, I mean, outside, or they just don't have the stuff that we're working like hell before.

the burpees one we got one other position in mind that we're thinking on which we may be able to work out but uh you'd be surprised when you go for the second job there's no problem but for the highest jobs to get the right balance and get the right people is just hard as hell but we have for example trying to get a deputy attorney general because you know he has to you have to think of the fact that he may move up to attorney general when clindy's goes

got the best candidate by all odds is that i wanted is charles wright the dean of the law school right at the university in texas you know right well damn it uh his fbi reports he's uh when he was in college he got picked up for some nude parties and things well you know what i mean it's a small thing and he's had three divorces as well

You know, you could get by with that in other offices, but you're just going to have the Attorney General doing that.

Don't you agree?

I agree.

Now, this is not something that hurts him now, because they don't know it in Texas.

Right.

Captain Minnesota.

But we ran, you know, this is a, I don't know, I was all set.

It says, God writes just the man, because he wrote a terrific anti-busing statement for us when the thing was up.

He's a leader of the American Bar and one of the best law school deans, a brilliant constitutional lawyer.

And then we run this down the FBI check, and I said, Christ, they'd kill us in that Judiciary Committee.

Oh, boy, they'd love it.

See, that's the reason we're going over these so carefully.

And sometimes when you see names speculated about it, they don't turn up.

Many times we're just protecting the poor bastards because they've got something in that report that they don't want out.

I'll be damned.

But that was really something.

What a shocker.

And I tell you, nothing wrong with it.

I mean, there's probably kids, you know, a bunch of kids, and today they have nude parties and everybody thinks it's natural, but not in those days.

And the divorces were a little on the messy side.

Right.

He obviously likes girls anyway.

Well, nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with that.

It's just a hell of a lot better than life and boys.

Okay.

I'll tell you for one thing, we ain't got none of those.

All right.

Yeah.

But anyway, Volpe is set and happy.

He can...

It'll be a little better for him in another way.

It won't be quite as pressure.

He's not... You know, he's got a sort of a bad arm or something.

It's a bursitis that he's... Or back.

It's his back.

But anyway, he's...

But I'll tell you...

He'll be coming back and making speeches, and he'll do a terrific job.

I'm delighted, because I think he's been a great soldier.

Well, he's probably made more speeches than anybody else.

That's right.

Okay.

I'm glad you kept Earl Butts on.

oh yes well i'm keeping people who are there only a year you know what i mean but butts is very popular and uh and uh the department we're going to shake up very good because there's some people out around the country i found and butcher agrees with this and some of these soil conservation and other units and county agents that just

I've frankly worked against our people, and I'm cleaning all those bastards out.

Well, that's good.

I got in, for example, Undersecretary Phil Campbell today, and I said, no, that's your job.

I said, you're going to do that?

We're going to clean them out, talk about them.

I mean, and I've got the names of people, you know, some of them picked up from candidates, and if they worked against us, they're going out.

Good.

And so we're doing that in various places.

Well, see, it sounds good, Mr. President.

Yeah, but we've got some good ones.

And now if we can get this ploy worked out, I mean, nothing falls into it, but we can get the three Bs, Bush, Brock, and Brown.

That would be a hell of a group.

And with Dan, I just think he ought to be here.

You say, Dan, look, the thing I think is, look, you think he is a man that ought to go up, but why doesn't he take one step first and then go ready for the other?

Let his colleagues see him.

Well, I'll get him over tomorrow and talk to him about that.

Tell him that we all, tell him that if you like, you can tell him how highly I think of him, and I think he's a hell of a follower, and that I think he's one of the men we ought to bring along.

And that we, it's just a question of who fills the spots at this point, that we probably, that we, you might say this, as just a thought, if I could give it to you.

With Bush, we've got basically Texas, which is the south.

Right.

with rock we put in another set on it basically even though it's border and really we've got to go to the heartland

i think you could say that and that's ohio that's a good idea it's the heartland you see the heartland of the republicans is ohio and tennessee is that too but it's and it isn't i really feel that very strongly too because it does it does mean something that if we were to have in the leadership three southerners because basically even though bush is a connecticut yankee he's still a southerner right if you have three southerners that would make a very bad impression i really believe that it would uh

the old southern strategy.

That's right.

Which worked, but we don't want to say it again.

Amen.

Right.

But I think it's really true, Jerry, if you can use it and then say, now, the thing to do here is, now, you're next in line.

You're going to move on.

And you're going to be in that seat.

But we need you.

We need you.

And you need them.

And you'll...

Because he's got a lot of balls, and he's got an admirer guy that wants something bad enough to try for it.

Well, I'll wait until after this other announcement, and then bring him over.

I think it'll be in the morning, but it might be the afternoon.

But in the meantime, I guess we'll have to say we'll have to wait for any meeting until after you, after the Congress comes back.

That's right.

Because it'll be too premature.

Yeah.

Okay, Jerry.

Nice to talk to you, Mr. President.

Bye-bye.