Conversation 158-009

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Hello?

Mr. President?

Oh, and I mean, how are you?

Okay.

I, uh, how long you been up?

You've been up about 45 minutes.

I've just been talking to Wanda.

Oh, I see.

Right, right.

I was talking to, uh, the candidate getting the, uh, report.

And, uh, he, uh, he made the, uh, he raised the point that, uh,

that concerns me that I've implied last night that I want to go into again.

And I think that we're up to a pretty good finish.

The posturing of this announcement is extremely important.

Obviously, I don't want to posture it in a way that in any way will be damaging to our future negotiations.

On the other hand, I don't want to posture it in a way that looks as if because of the

Uh, you know, the objections to the bombing and the Democratic demonstration, potential demonstrations, wherever, but we moved in that direction.

Now, that was Rush's reaction.

Did he tell you that?

Yes.

And Rush, of course, is on our side.

In other words, he's not one that's come to look for that sort of thing.

And, uh, so what is your, uh, what's your feeling, Mr. President?

My feeling, Mr. President, is that, uh, that, you know, when Rush reacts that way, you can figure you're doing about it.

media reacting that way.

So, I might get the business in an hour ahead of yesterday.

I gotta say, I'm just saying it only because he is a totally, totally loyal fellow who wants to look at it our way, but he just, he just, he just, he just, he just, he just,

He's the only one that's been told.

I mean, that I know of.

I mean, it's a huge, huge...

But I think you're bombing a little longer.

There's a lot to be said for this.

Oh, yeah.

But I believe that the best... No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

The bombing a little longer is a bunch of crap.

The ref doesn't want to bomb any longer.

Moore does.

The ref doesn't.

Well, I think... His reaction is a very different...

I know what Moore's doing, but this is...

But right now, the demonstrations aren't bad yet.

The pressure's not bad yet.

I think my judgment is that the lowest possible key announcement is the best thing for us.

There's no attempt, as anyone else said, that we move at our own speed.

We've been setting this up for a while, and here it is.

They've been leading all our terms.

We know that.

And we know that the only thing that I, in the fourth tunnel that's going to be, which I don't want to have happen here, we've got to remember that what is involved is a person who is able to partner with the settlement conflict.

But on the other hand, we don't want to have the Congress come back under the situation where it appears as if we started down a course and then we backed off and decided to go back to talking.

You get my point?

We're putting in the basic demographics and that's the basic to what Russia's got.

Now, what's the answer to that?

The answer to that is that...

It's not true, of course, but what else is the answer?

Well, the answer is that from the first day of the bombing, we demanded certain things.

As soon as they were fulfilled, they were to be stopped.

But we can't say that, because that immediately turned into a test with the North Vietnamese.

Exactly.

I know that.

Actually, I know what the answer is.

You do, too, as you know.

The thing that he's saying, rather than we, who are doing it, I have done all I can, and I'm just trying to see if there's anything that...

Well, you know, once you install a new congressman, it gives you... Oh, the hell with the congressman.

I'm sticking more of the people in to make opinions.

You know, that's too good to me.

Unless the president is murderously dangerous, if we get...

Any of them.

The only ones to do it would be you.

That's the part of it.

If you start into that game, then it'll look as if you're doing something in terms of... Well, then you'll have story authorized sources that's the following.

That's right.

It will be read in Hanoi, and we'll have the same stuff as we had, but they put out that the DMV was ran down that road, and it was not...

but I think it will make it a test of man-made.

In other words, let me come down with a question before I'm going to call him and see if it's within 101.

He has been hardlining in my direction.

All these little blips of rumors, well, I've seen them go.

Is it possible that they're going to make up?

Is it possible to bomb them?

As you know, there have been low-level rumors for three days.

And he has said there's absolutely no truth in it, whatever.

That's a total speculation.

Absolutely not.

In other words, I deliberately have not been playing a very, very hard line.

Now, having played that line all week,

The obvious question would be, well, you mentioned, Warren, that you said on Wednesday and Thursday and Friday, you said there was absolutely no proof.

Now, does this just upset you, the person, or would you never even know?

How do you want to get out of that?

You should say that that's it.

I just want to get him an answer so that he thinks it's going to be not quite as quickly to a ziggler, obviously.

Just within his miles, right?

Well, he's a big ziggler, but, you know, zigglers just know he's suffering.

And, uh, and, and...

I'm just saying that that's...

I'm just saying we've been exchanging messages all this time, and it has now been made final.

Is it or not?

Well, what I've done, maybe my belief is that we've, uh, determined that

Uh, what I told you is true.

Uh, but, uh, it matters to the service, uh, uh, there, there, there, there's always a kind of, there's always a continuing exchange of, uh, uh, of, uh, but until something final is agreed to, we do not announce it.

Period.

And if it is not, not, not being announced because it's been finally agreed to, before that it is not being agreed to.

Yeah, but you couldn't say when it was agreed to, because then they'll ask, why did you bomb the next day?

Yeah.

I know we discussed that because that was the deal.

Alright, let's see, if you think of any other questions, let's try to, let's be the devil's advocate, because I'm going to come into no comment with you, anything you can say.

There are two, there are three questions to answer.

The one you put, the one about the bombing, you should make sure to say, as long as serious negotiations are going on, you know, you can't be serious.

And even if you use the word serious negotiations, you may get, you may not say, but it means you may resume the bombing if they break off the conference.

Gentlemen, I'm not going to comment on this.

Please stand on my order, everybody.

Exactly.

The only thing he could say, Mr. President, because of all these rumors about the split between you and me is that you and I have been in daily contact on this.

I think that must be said because it's really getting to a point where it's trying to impair my effectiveness.

It's been a time, it's been a news day, but it's been put out by our own people, so it's no wonder that I know Jack people put it out.

I know Jack people.

But it doesn't make any sense.

I know for the fact that she did it.

She's told to me by so many reliable people who have no access to her.

But I think if it doesn't simply knock down, it's simply as a matter of fact where she's dead.

If they've been in contact.

Sure, sure, sure.

I don't think it does make any difference after the whole thing is done.

I don't care what they say then.

But otherwise, he could answer nothing.

The main part that we have to get to that they really will begin on that we wanted to stay off of is when it's agreed to.

How long has it been under discussion?

I think we should just say, I think we should say the

The only thing you can do now is get together and start settling.

I'm not going to get into that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, I think it'd be a mistake.

We don't want to...

I don't know.

That's what we do.

But we have to take it easy.

We always have to take it in a way that's very... that's very... that's what we always do.

But I think we should know that there's a way to do it.

Probably the way the ball is going to bounce.

Well, I think anyone who thinks about it, I think the best way to counteract it is to make clear he can't say this has been under discussion for a week, which is true.

He can't say that?

Yeah.

Yeah, this is going to be under discussion for a week.

All right.

Is it with him or by him?

I think that's it.

There's nothing to be said for having, I mean that makes it, it's so easy to make it, I think, the better of the, uh, to have it, but we must have in mind, to this, uh, as far as the immediate electric impact, there will probably be nothing, uh, because the worst of both worlds will probably be, uh, immediately as well, but, uh, we should look at the timing of all of

and that they then agreed to go back to the top, that you should never quit bearing any burden on people.

Do they forget what they quit for your briefing, or you pointed out that you didn't have any problems?

Because that was the... Do you remember that was the whole purpose of the briefing?

I'm opposed, Mr. President, to the attempts on how it's come down now.

It's the majority, it's the state.

that they don't imagine ours and if they don't then it's just then we gave it one more time and then we go to the other arm and then we have to bomb them again all right

Oh, yeah.

I got about 15 letters that person at a time, I guess.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So now they're just getting ready to get in there and give them a chance to stop on the gas.

The only thing that's going to work out is that they are going back because the objective reality is the fact that they are not making it for another two-week and letting the pressure build up on us so that they can't take it.

Well, I agree that there has been, the press has gotten itself out of the 11-1 respect by constantly saying that bombing would not bring them back to talks, right?

That's right.

On the other hand, the way the press would get around that to see, and I think this is what Russia's intuition is, I didn't talk to them, but I just based on what the county told me briefly, is that no, it wasn't that way.

What happened was we couldn't take it, and we said, oh, we're going to stop the bombing, provided you come back and talk.

How do you answer that?

They just said, frankly, they did it only after we made the offer to them.

I know.

And they knew that this is what was going to happen.

They said that I know things that they won't say that it can't work.

Everyone.

They don't accept it.

You think it's going to be a surprise to them?

The inspector called here yesterday.

He said they're doing a cover story.

Somebody put it through on my private line.

And he said they were doing a big cover story on how bombing has never worked.

Thank you.

Isn't that great?

So, I just, uh...

I don't know.

I don't know why I said that.

I said I'm a big date and I don't want to go into it.

So, uh...

Sorry, that was too good, isn't it?

I don't know why I said that.

I think, Mr. President, the fact of the matter is that if the other side would take it, they would hold on another two to three weeks to see what measures develop.

No matter what this does, no matter if on one level we get the worst of both worlds, but on another we get the best of both worlds, because what the hell are the jobs going to say now?

By the time the Congress gets back, we'll be ready to be for Paris.

They've got to be restrained.

We'll see.

You'll be bumped back to the table.

You can see us.

Oh, yeah.

And if you wanted to, I could call a few people like Reagan and Rosewater.

Well, there's the point.

When would you call?

I could call at night or tomorrow morning.

Well, I think it might be, frankly, the more I think of it.

It's a cheap guy.

Let me see what you think of him.

Let me give you the name.

Right.

Reagan.

I'll make the call to Mansfield.

When would you do that?

Maybe I'll do it tonight.

I think tonight.

Don't tell him all that's gonna happen.

You mean you need me to tell him about the announcement?

Yeah, I guess you can.

Well, if I call him about 8 o'clock tonight, Manfield won't do anything.

No.

None of these others that I mentioned will say anything either.

No.

Uh, let me see.

If you call these others, though...

I could start calling tomorrow.

I think I'd call them tomorrow.

I think the main thing with the others, Henry, is not tonight, but tomorrow.

But I think you might give 12 hours notice, too.

Right.

I think it's just that I ought to call Rockefeller tomorrow.

Rockefeller tomorrow, Reagan tomorrow, Bill Getter tomorrow, Ford tomorrow, Robert tomorrow, Avery tomorrow.

That's what I had in mind.

Right, Mr. President.

And if you could do that.

And incidentally, do you think Agnew ought to be a fan?

Yeah.

Well, let's see if I do it.

Let Kennedy do it.

Well, he doesn't need to know the mindset.

Oh, first thing in the morning.

No, I just want to appreciate.

That's right.

I mean, you have to find out that's right around at the two sites.

Right.

Yeah.

And even that's just to do it in there.

Yeah.

Just stop, you know.

You should know a couple hours and that.

Right.

And then make it, and you'll figure it.

But I think you're getting some of the horses on through.

It is not a bad idea.

Now, let's talk in terms of what they, uh, what about the likes of, uh,

Well, no.

I could call those men's men.

Yeah.

And Alfa.

Alfa, Alfa.

Right.

I just don't want Alfa to be too unsteady.

He may ride it as a tremendous victory.

Of course.

Wilson, Wilson would be totally realized.

Wilson, Smith, I can call because they heard you when they started.

Okay.

And you might just say, uh...

They know real damn well what you're saying.

And just putting it to two of them is enough, and then making it better for the others.

Now, if Max Frankl unfortunately doesn't ride anymore, he would be a good one because he's a pretty decent guy.

Yeah.

Well, the Times isn't going to break it next because they've got a total eye on them and they wouldn't let them touch the story if they did.

That's true.

But I think, Mr. President, you'll find, well, the press will be divided.

Yeah.

But basically, they'll be so eager for the negotiations to succeed that they're going to keep their mouths shut next week.

Not really.

You take the Tom Wickers.

Some of those, they don't want them to succeed.

I know Tom Wickers.

They want them to go down because if they're punching at the state of the park in July and May, they're blind acres of me.

They don't want me to succeed, you see.

Oh, no question about it.

And so, you see, for that reason, it's a terrible thing.

The doctors want the kids to go to school.

They didn't care about the bombing and the rest.

They just want us to be embarrassed.

That's right.

That is true, but some of the more decent ones.

The decent ones, I agree.

I mean, people like Jerry Schechter, who's not for us.

But he'd like to go to the over with.

And our major problem during the next week is to continue to look serious.

Because his best thing we have with Hanoi, no matter what the goddamn list is, is...

You're current, and it's their feeling that no matter what the streaming is, you'll do it again.

Uh, whether you do or not, but they have fixed it.

I think the terms of the call, that's about it.

Uh, the, uh, the only thing I would do, too, I would call to tell you that, uh, I don't know, there's a camera in front of me.

Well, thank you.

Thank you.

I ought to be ashamed.

Yeah, I'll call Otis.

I won't put it that way, but I'll tell him.

That's right.

I'll call him tomorrow.

And the main thing is, tell everybody about you.

I could be in your OR too long and say maybe you were wrong.

Yeah.

Why don't you try that one?

Right.

That's good.

Right.

Good.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

Right.