Conversation 164-004

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello.

Yes, sir.

Well, that's quite a gaggle of headlines this morning.

Yeah.

Unavoidable, I guess.

Oh, sure, sure.

That's right.

And, uh, saying to Ron, I was, uh, on the more, not the big headline, but I think it burned me a bit was on the Besco thing where John had the perfect response, you know, those bastards would

put the response down about the third or fourth paragraph.

There you have it.

That's what we get on all of them.

Par for the course, isn't it?

Right, right, right.

I was wondering what time you and John could be up here.

Well, I haven't talked with John yet this morning.

We're both trying to finish up our written things.

And then we've got lawyers who are standing by to go over the stuff with us.

Then we can get up as soon as we do that.

Let me raise the point of today versus tomorrow again.

Do you still feel strongly that today is better?

I do for a reason.

The most important thing that I have got to do is to make that speech.

I've got to get this...

Well, no, I guess if we make the decision today, that doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

I've got to work on it and write it.

Well, I assume the decision's made.

Yeah, it may have made.

All right.

The question, and we got into this in some discussion last night, was that the concern of writing, it again gets to this Dean question, which really does bother the legal guys.

I know.

That if we go today and write through

uh yeah looks like 48 hour period with dean sitting here and us out yeah that's right we got a problem if we go tomorrow and we just move and then move on monday with dean it looks like a logical sequence and it moves right into your speech on monday night right tomorrow's fine john tomorrow's fine but not that was that was the strong feeling last night all right well that feeling does the time is all right provided we make the decision the decision i think okay

I'm going on the assumption that we're not questioning the decision at all.

The main thing is to get your statements written in the best possible way, take that high ground, and then go on it.

Because I am proceeding on that assumption in writing my talk.

I'm not going to mention you in the talks.

I didn't plan to.

I wouldn't think you should.

Yeah, because I don't want to mention Dean or anybody else.

You ought to mention people.

Yeah, and I'm just going to say that they have done this and so forth and so on, but no, no, I'm not going to damn anybody, you know what I mean, or mention her or fail to damn.

And because if I mention, I've got to then get into other things.

You know, the talk's going to be more...

I've done a lot of thinking about it.

It's got to be broader than just the specifics.

That's right.

And it's going to be a pretty good talk, Bob.

Good.

I mean, it's about the right time.

You know, it's just not to be, not to say, it shows you sometimes that maybe you're right.

The timing is that way.

Believe me, if we had gone, let's go back a month and had a hold of them and get out and make a statement, it would have been a disaster.

If we had, that's what's come out.

If we had, for example, gone last week, you know, and they were thinking about it, that would have been wrong because, you know, we wouldn't have known about some of this other crap that's going to come out, like the gray thing, you know.

Yeah.

We thought it was there.

We didn't know it was going to come out.

And it's best to hit after they've thrown a lot of their wad, you know what I mean?

Sure.

And then crack it.

See my point?

Yep.

uh the timing situation that's what we did with the fun you know i kept waiting and waiting and then yeah finally hit one there so i want you to know that i i feel that our timing is good probably about right about right i i think so too i i think uh in a long long range when you look back at it it'll throw it you got another minute sure yeah

Got a little cold, you know.

I see.

That sounds good.

Got a little rundown, I guess, for this.

Like you fellows.

Did you get some sleep?

Oh, some.

Yeah.

But enough, enough.

Well, try to get some, because you've got to look good Monday night, too.

I'll look good.

Don't come on looking tired and haggard.

I'll have some nice makeup.

I'll take a swim.

I'm going to do everything I can.

Good.

That's why I'm glad I'm here.

I'm here alone.

Didn't have the family come up and all that, you know.

Just so we keep all this in a proper context, I want you to know that I look back to the Truman thing, and it's somewhat similar.

I remember they appointed a special prosecutor, Newbold Morris, and they found he was involved in the ship scandal, and then he had to be fired.

So they fired—McGrath fired Newbold Morris, and then Truman fired McGrath.

In other words, we had an attorney general and so forth.

Here, ours is bigger.

Ours has got the—not bigger in terms—that was scandal.

It was stealing, stealing.

But here we have an FBI director and you fellows, and then, of course, a former attorney general.

I mean, those are the big fish.

The little fish, they aren't going to give one shit about, believe me.

They aren't.

Could I ask you to give some thought to this, on this leave thing, as to whether, so that some of the lower guys could do it in their right way, as to whether Strawn, for example, ought to ask for a leave?

You know what I mean?

Or, I don't know, he's still negotiating with the U.S. attorneys and that sort of thing.

Is he?

Well, that's what I think, yes.

Yes, I think he said that they haven't made him.

When I say negotiating, he's just, I don't think he's negotiating to do any money in.

They're just talking to him, trying to get him to say what the hell he's going to say.

And Strong sticks to it.

He's tough.

But I was wondering, do you think Strong, Moore, people like that, any of them should move or should you let them sit there and be witnesses?

I don't know.

I think if you start down that road, everyone is a witness, you're going to get to damage the people.

As soon as it appears that anyone's a target, they ought to probably.

Or that they're going to be heavily involved in terms of time.

Exactly.

In other words...

It's a question.

Strawn is not a target yet, is he?

Well, I don't know.

I didn't think he was.

No.

Last I heard, they had told him he wasn't.

No.

I'm only referring, Bob, to the public mind.

Well, he isn't in the public mind.

That's all I care about, the target shit.

I'm not going to have people go out.

He's such a small fish in the thing that he's not like Maguder, who is a key factor.

That's right.

Well, on Dean, I've been doing some thinking.

I'll tell you what it is.

But I've got a very tough plan for him.

I mean, it will be handled properly.

And I'm not going to, I mean, the way we've thought it through, it's going to be very peremptory.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Well, you've got to balance it.

Well, I'm not going to see him.

That's my point.

Well, you sure shouldn't.

I'm not going to see him.

I'm not going to have—he can't come dicker with me.

And I've got it all worked out in my mind due to the fact that when I have Garment see him, I'll say the U.S. attorney has said that I should not talk to anybody who's— I mean, I should not talk to him because he's discussing—he's negotiating with them and that he's the U.S. attorney.

I mean—

The assistant attorney general is the only one that can make any decision, and I've told him the decision is his, and that he's to make his own mind up based on getting at the truth.

I'm just leaving it right there with him, and they're not about to give him immunity.

It's interesting, there was a story in the paper this morning indicating if he didn't get immunity, he wasn't going to talk, you know.

That's sort of a two-way sword, I suppose.

He's trying to say, well, if he doesn't get immunity, we're covering him up.

covering up for others, right?

In another way.

Could be.

It could be.

But that's all right.

I don't think the public can give a shit about that.

I think you made your point on that, that no high-level officials... What's wrong?

What's wrong?

Low-level people should get immunity so they can nail high-level people.

That's right.

But I'm just going to do that in a way that's...

So if I move on him, another thing, too, if you leave him a little time, it gives him time to make up a damn statement.

That's right.

Here, I think maybe you're right, going Monday.

It means Sunday.

Sunday.

And then I'll just tell him.

It looks like it set the events in motion.

Yeah, it sets them in motion, and I'm going to have Garmin go ahead and tell Garmin he's going to get a lot of threats, and he's to say, fine, it's all right, John, go out and do what you want.

I mean, the president is...

I'm not so sure he will get all the threats on this one.

I think if John and I are on leave, that Dean isn't going to resist it.

Really?

Well, I don't think so.

I don't think...

I think he'll hope that he doesn't, you know, when he...

Your move's going to surprise the hell out of him.

It'll surprise him.

And then you've got a question of which way he'll go.

He might be smart enough to move to request to leave himself.

Yeah.

Well, he isn't going to have much time.

That's right.

You'll hit Sunday night and then there's that.

But he may request a meeting with me and I'll say, nope.

Garment, go ahead and deliver the notes.

I'll just have the note prepared.

Yeah.

And that's a pretty good idea, is I'm going to do him in a way that's at arm's length, arm's length, and no more talks with him.

Well, you need that for your own record.

I sure do.

Just depending on how things bounce.

you need to do it and that seems to me this comes pretty close in a way that that doesn't doesn't uh antagonize him any more than you have to and you've given you've laid a groundwork by our going that the small thing but it's interesting that neither the post and the times ran that story because you know that they were bouncing around there that they said the deans and i mean they learned from the u.s attorneys the deans the lawyers are dean at

the president or something like that.

They didn't run it.

I wonder why.

I don't know.

I wonder if they really have it or if that's something they're just lobbing out.

I still have a feeling they're throwing a lot of stuff around now to see how it bounces.

Well...

They must have some hint of it, but they're... You mean the Times Post?

Yeah.

No, I think...

I'm confident that they got some of this from them because...

But what I meant is...

But they got it from Dean's lawyers, and they don't run stuff just on his lawyers now.

They apparently try to get one other source.

The other thing that they had, the other, the time story was a curious one where Bookman was involved with O'Brien.

I haven't seen that.

Even Bittman, O'Brien.

Hirsch told Bittman, and Bittman told O'Brien.

Oh, yeah.

But that, of course, in my view, in Boston must involve a whole— Well, see, Hirsch is running around talking to the lawyers and telling them things.

He was talking to our lawyer, too.

And your lawyer, he said that he had nothing on Holloman, didn't he?

Yep.

Is that right?

But, you know, you wonder whether he's— Sucking you in.

—efficient on that, too.

That's right.

Bob, one thing on documentation.

I wanted to ask you a question.

You know, I mark things in news summaries now and then, you know, to do this, good God, check on this, what the hell is this guy doing, and so forth and so on.

It was not your practice to just do...

to make a multiple of those and send those to fellows like Dean and so forth.

They don't have the, they're verbatim to that stuff, do they?

No, they have a, what they have is a memo from the staff secretary saying it's been requested that you check such and such.

Does it indicate the president has requested?

No.

Good.

And it doesn't ask for a report back to the president.

It says, please report back to the staff secretary on your actions or something by April 15th.

Good.

that's perfectly all right and then the originals of those go into your file yeah you know that anything with your writing on it is in your file on that if dean or anybody ever comes up with any of that you just say well that was a routine thing the only exception to that is once in a while when you did a uh when you do a long note to me or no i guess not even kissinger

It may be also the Kissinger, where they, on those, they would make a Xerox and give it to them, but the original is in your file.

What I meant is, like, if I'd mentioned, do check this, check that, and Colson, I went about him.

No.

You didn't send him those?

No, he'd just get a checklist.

That's all we need.

Okay, fine.

Well, if that ever comes up, you just want to say that's basically there.

We always do that with the new summary and so forth and so forth.

That's right.

All right.

Well, could I suggest, then, that you...

First, as far as the decision, can I just, just in terms of my writing, which is terribly important, I just got to go forward.

Can I assume that the decision is made?

Yeah.

I mean, you and John have made the decision, right?

Second, can I, you would not want to come up till tomorrow?

Yeah.

You would come up tomorrow, is that right?

At least that was the strong feeling last night, and I think that,

Now, if there's any reversal in the decision, I need to know.

Right.

Well, no, because I tell you what, I had a thought of talking to Rogers today.

That's the point.

But I don't want to talk to him unless, you know, and then have any reversal or, you know, or anything on that in this decision.

Yeah.

Well, let me put it this way.

Let's just say it's made.

Shall we do that?

Right.

Yeah.

Fine.

And on this basis.

And can we have that understanding now?

Yes, sir.

Fine.

And so I could talk to Rogers, see what he had in mind, what he might do.

What I had in mind, frankly, was him, just for you to mention.

I don't know, I have the feeling that if we could get him to move, God damn, that would have a damn good effect, wouldn't we?

I think so.

Yeah.

I think it really would.

And I think you can really mount and top him on it, and he'll buy it.

There is a crisis here of enormous proportions, and this is the way for him to finish his service to the nation out, is by moving in and cleaning this up.

And he's the one man of impeccable authority in whom you have total confidence that can do it.

He has a free hand in all the world.

A free hand in doing the FBI...

following up on the, if he needs a special prosecutor, he gets him.

That's right.

It's up to him.

That's right.

So forth and so on.

That's right.

All right.

I think it would just be a master stroke.

It would be enormously good around the country.

He could do it.

We could see the...

I noticed that even Billy Graham's come out for some special... Yeah, well, you know, he's just...

agonizing with wanting to get it cleaned up.

I know, I know.

And Bob.

Really, in fairness, they all are, aren't they?

Of course they are.

It's exactly the thing that I anticipated would happen this week, you know.

Yeah.

That's why we've got to stay just one step ahead of the curve.

Well, if you could do the Rogers move even before the speech, that would really be something.

Yeah, well, it's a long, long shot, but we'll see.

I'll call him up.

Bye, thank you.

Okay.

Good luck, good luck.

Thank you.

Remember, the decision is made, and I'm going to write an assumption.

Okay.