Conversation 164-010

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Hello.

Well, you're not going to get to golf today, I understand.

No, this is pretty nasty.

Yeah, yeah, I'm at Camp David.

I'm working, and I'm not going to tell you what, but as you know, when I come here, I don't come here to look at the Easter lilies.

But things are going to work out.

Very good.

Point two, that's just for us, for you to forget you heard it, okay?

I don't want people coming in and out here.

What I mean is I don't want any stories indicating that I'm here and that people are coming to see me, which they will be.

Second point related to that.

I am not going to see Dean.

I am not going to see him because in my view, I cannot be, I remember that conversation we had, that I cannot be in a position where he will want to come in and try to

Talk to me about how he's going to plea.

I subscribe to that.

All right, fine.

And my line there is going to be, and I'm going to have it done in another way, is to have Garment, who will replace him.

I'm having difficulty hearing you, Mr. Farrell.

My line there is to have whoever is going to replace him on a basis, and certainly I'm thinking of a lead basis for him, which I think you're right.

The three should be treated equally.

I'm not sure you kind of feel that way, don't you, in your gut?

No, I'm very strong with you.

All right.

And the point is, I can't have him come in and do the marketing, and my line is to say, look,

The only man that can make that decision is Mr. Peterson.

And I have told him that that decision is his.

I've expressed my view, but he has authority to make the decision in any way that will get the truth.

How does that sound to you?

Fine.

That doesn't put any burden on you that you don't want.

No, I don't want to pass the buck.

Well, it doesn't put any burden on me that I don't have by law.

It's the truth.

Third point on that.

I know there's a rather interesting story to the fact that if he didn't get immunity, he wasn't going to talk.

I wonder if that's a gun at our head in terms of thinking, well, if he doesn't get immunity, we're covering up.

Yes, sir, I heard that story.

Yeah.

How do you analyze it?

Well...

In a way, though, you know, he doesn't have to get immunity in order to talk, does he?

Oh, no, but he also has amendment rights.

Right, right.

That's the only way we can take those rights away from him, is immunity.

Oh, I see, I see.

That's right, that's right.

And your immunity can be limited or total or half.

No, it applies to everything he says.

But use immunity, you mean?

Yes, sir.

Well, that isn't going to help him a hell of a lot, Henry.

I mean, it isn't going to help him a hell of a lot, for example, on the...

You know, the sovereign nation issue, that's the one that I think he's got.

I mean, from my limited knowledge of the law, that's a tough one, isn't it?

Well, it would cover anything that he disclosed to us.

And as a practical matter, we, as the sovereign extended the immunity, would be almost in a possible situation to prosecute him.

Even if we came with evidence from an independent source.

I see.

A technique like that's possible, but a Supreme Court decision is an indication.

In other words, if you give him even use immunity, he gets it.

That's right.

Yes, sir.

I see.

Well, all right.

The decision is yours, just remembering also that your obligation is to not see that he gets an incentive to get after innocent people.

I understand.

And that's a tough one, but I have great confidence in your judgment.

That's right.

The situation on the other things I think remains about as it is.

The judge apparently is going forward with the Ellsberg thing, with the trial, despite this thing.

I mean, the FBI is talking to the individuals, and then the judge will... Is that the way that's normally done?

I want to be sure there's nothing abnormal about that damn thing.

Oh, darling, you know, if it had been an earlier stage in the proceeding, we might have completed our inquiry.

But we didn't have that much time at trial.

The only schedule will be to be concluded within a week to 10 days.

So assuming we can get the inquiry done in time, we'll have to make that available to the judge, and then he'll either do one of two things, depending on the quality of the information.

He'll either order an evidentiary hearing or dismiss the case outright if it's blatant.

uh filming is not blatant and i he's going to give the defense an opportunity to argue on that part well to uh conduct an evidentiary hearing that's an open court would that be an open court yes sir but that would also mean that lydia and hunt would probably be subpoenaed they might very well take the fifth amendment um the judge might order us to immunize them uh

They still refuse to talk and be held in contempt.

Yeah.

John Dean will probably be subpoenaed as a witness.

Possibly, I reckon.

Possibly, you say, yeah.

Ehrlichman, possibly, yes.

Yeah.

If Dean says he did it under his direction or whatever the hell it is, right?

I have only an oral report, but I understand Ehrlichman told the Bureau that he heard of this incident but had no independent knowledge of it.

That's right.

That's what he... For whatever it's worth, I asked him, as you can imagine, immediately, and I said, what the hell is this thing?

He said he heard of it.

He had no independent knowledge of it.

I mean, and... And...

And once he found that out, he said, for Christ's sake, knock this crap off.

But nevertheless, that's irrelevant.

Well, it's relevant.

It's relevant.

We'll see.

We'll go out and talk.

Okay, that one will move then.

And I'll go forward with the trial.

And I hope you will help our old friend...

We're good friends, Mr. President.

Yeah.

And just tell Bill, I gave him carte blanche.

Of course, I said, don't start a new investigation, but I said, for Christ's

I want you to really do anything.

I mean, don't let it leave a goddamn stone uncovered.

And that's for you, too.

You understand that?

Well, I don't think.

I think he respects me, and I respect him.

At his breath, the country respects him, too.

We like each other on top of it.

I don't think there's going to be any difficulty there at all.

Good.

I'm glad to hear that.

And he's better than putting one of those people knifing each other above each other.

I mean, see, Dick Quindy's one would have felled up, but I just couldn't see that with Felt and the rest.

I mean, they're

You know, Felt had a hell of an argument with Sullivan, and Sullivan left, and all that.

That's right.

You know, that isn't the right thing, Henry.

Remember, you once told me you've got to put somebody outside the bureau into that thing.

I agree with that.

And we'll have somebody else for that soon.

One final thing.

Get your thoughts on, you know, there's sort of an increasing sort of clamor developing.

I don't know how much it is with regard to special prosecutor and so forth now.

I don't know.

My view is still negative.

Negative because I think that you and the prosecuting team are going balls out hell-bent per election to get the facts, and that once the grand jury quits and you indict, that that's going to be pretty clear.

What do you think about it?

I mean, are you coming to the press?

Give me your honest view about this thing.

Should I consider it?

Well, I still have a very difficult practical problem that even if you put one in, there's going to be an awful lot of time lost.

The credibility issue is becoming much more severe, much more severe, both within and without government.

One of the things that I've been discussing with Kleindienst,

And frankly, I've told Titus that we'll set up a decision-making organization, a panel of three composed of me, Titus, and someone at my rank in the Justice Department to pass on these critical decisions.

Right.

So the public's not left with the idea that a single person... Yeah.

Could you put... Could you put, perhaps...

Maybe one from outside, maybe a judge.

That's the other possibility, to bring somebody from outside.

I don't think he can do it with a judge.

You know, I think that flies in the face of the separation of powers doctrine.

Even with a retired judge, who still has authority to sit judicially.

I don't think he can be a judge.

I think if we're going to bring in an outsider... How about bringing in John McCloy?

That'd be fine.

He'd be willing, I think.

That'd be fine.

He could sit with Titus and I to make, you know, not on a day-to-day practical judgment, but on the ultimate decision.

Yeah.

And all the data would be available to him.

That's right.

And I think that might be a much better... Yeah, yeah.

Well, there's the name.

He's a good...

I mean, he's not tied to the administration.

You know, he serves all administrations.

He's a great lawyer.

Not a criminal lawyer, but that isn't what you need here.

You know, you need... You know, we'll have a little fact... Tell you, if you want, have Klein D. skim a call and tell him that the president wants him to do it.

If that's what you want to do.

All right.

I'll talk to Klein D. Monday, and we'll be back to you before we finally contact him.

Yeah.

Oh, no, as far as I'm concerned.

You've got to feel the thing out and see what I mean.

Oh, yeah.

Last point.

Let me just say one other thing.

That story that was floating out last night, let me say, boy, don't let anything like that.

I mean, I don't want to come at it.

Don't you let it without letting me know.

I'm not going to have anybody mean threatening the president.

I agree with that, Mr. President.

I mean, that seemed to me to be a pretty flimsy goddamn thing as it turned out.

We have no problems on that.

But, well, the point is you see that one little thing on Monday.

You've got a New York Times and a Washington Post reporter that it gets out to, which just really burns me up.

Well, you know, I appreciate that, but there's no difference of opinion between you and I on that point.

Yeah.

Yeah, because that's to think that, you know, that the attorney would come in and say, look, we're going to try the president on things other than Watergate, Jesus Christ, and then so they, without being specific, and, well, you understand?

Well, it's also an indication how desperate that man is.

What do you mean by that?

How desperate John Dean is.

Yeah, I see.

Yeah, well, he's trying to get the president to intercede with you for immunity, isn't that it?

Sure.

Well, let me say, I don't want to do that.

Either way.

You know, you've got to make that one.

God's call, Henry.

You make it and pray about it and do the right thing.

I will indeed, sir.

Yep.

Okay, boy.

All right.

Have a good day, brother.

Thank you.

You too.

Bye now.