Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 164 › Conversation 164-013
Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate and William P. Rogers
Saturday, April 28, 1973 · 11:10 AM–11:21 AM ET · Camp David Study Table · 10 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler discussed a strategic plan to manage the mounting Watergate crisis ahead of a forthcoming presidential speech. Ziegler proposed that Nixon appoint William P. Rogers as Attorney General to lead the Justice Department, arguing this move would provide a "masterstroke" that separates the President from the ongoing investigation. The pair also coordinated the handling of H.R. Haldeman, John Ehrlichman, and John Dean, focusing on the implementation of forced leaves of absence to stabilize the administration while maintaining the President's personal defense against allegations.
- Watergate
- William P. Rogers
- John W. Dean III
- H.R. Haldeman
- John Ehrlichman
- Resignation vs. leave of absence
- Justice Department
Audio
Transcript (AI-generated)
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Hello.
Hi, Ron.
Yes, sir.
I hope I haven't disturbed you.
No, no, no, no.
Take as much time as you can to conserve yourself over this weekend.
No, don't worry.
I am.
I'm going to see Bill Rogers right now.
Yes, sir.
I had a nice, long talk with Bob, and I wanted to pass this on to you, if I may, before you have your talk.
I think he indicated to you that both John and Bob are very comfortable now about the decision.
Of leave of absence.
Yes, sir.
But not resigning.
Right, of leave of absence.
So that is passed.
In other words, there's no further problem with that.
In thinking of the timing and discussing this in very frank terms with Bob, something he mentioned...
sparks me in a way that it is something that I know you are considering, but I would like to say it, from an overall standpoint, seems to me to be the masterstroke in all of this.
What's that?
That is, if action is taken, which is action typical of President Nixon, before the speech, which is dramatic in itself...
I should announce what you mean, huh?
No, sir.
No.
Can make...
can make the speech the final breaking point breaking off point for the press what i have in mind simply is this if for example over the weekend rogers is named as the attorney general yeah if over the weekend rogers is in a position where he takes charge of the uh invest the prosecution and if rogers
is then in the position to name a special prosecutor, that action in itself will then allow the presidency to totally remove itself from this whole process.
And the reason I wanted to make this point is one of the, something you should be aware of, one of the things that Woodward said the other day, and one of the things that I think we can anticipate coming, is a run at Peterson and a run at the investigation.
Woodward made the point that
They have some information on Peterson, not in relation to this, but in relation to the action he took in the previous case, a fairly recent case, apparently, where he can come under some criticism.
And that in itself could perhaps, you know, tend to not, you know, carry things through in a positive way, but the difficulty with the special prosecutor, it'll...
be months before they could ever learn the case.
Well, but the thing of it is, it's not starting a new investigation, but it would be picking up from where it stands now.
Yeah.
And then you mean not have them resign?
No, sir.
Not have them give their leaves now?
No, sir.
Absolutely.
Their leaves have got to go forward now.
Yeah.
Here's basically the scenario that it would be.
Over the weekend...
an announcement of the fact that Rogers would be Attorney General.
Also, at the same time, an announcement of the fact that Haldeman and Earlyman are taking leave, which they're totally prepared to do.
And in that context, announced as Rogers moves in,
to take charge of the justice.
But Rogers wouldn't have to announce special prosecutor.
He's got a fine one, you mean.
Well, but that's good enough by simply saying that because of the developments, Rogers moving in, and he will be authorized to bring in assistance of some sort.
It wouldn't have to be special prosecutor to work directly with him to carry out and finish the process.
Right, right.
I get your point.
So I'm going to clean up the Peterson thing.
I get your point.
That's correct.
And then on Monday or after this is announced, Sunday afternoon or whenever, move vigorously on Dean.
Well, on Dean, my thought was on moving vigorously on Dean was to simply have, rather than the fire, I think it was just to have Garment...
coldly go in and say, the president is accepting your resignation, not resignation.
I mean, you are placed on leave of absence, and I'm taking over your duties, John, until this thing is cleared up.
Well, one thing I think of the scenario I'm just mentioning, particularly on the Dean thing, based on the information you have in terms of Dean would be to have Garment go in and say, because of the moves we're taking, we're accepting your resignation, you see.
Well, I think he should be treated the same as the others.
I don't know, but basically, let's face it, there's got this problem.
Dean, well, maybe you're not as worried about that.
Dean knows a hell of a lot about Roger, I mean, about Alderman Ehrlichman, I mean, most of which I think they can handle.
He also has one gun pointed at the president, and in fact, that conversation I told you in which he did discuss the possibility of
told me about that damned damn thing this conversation about well hunt needs money and that was on the 21st of march i'm not worried about that i started our investigation so he could say well the president had knew all that information and sat on it and didn't do anything but you did no i know i did i'd conducted but why didn't i turn that over immediately to the attorney general because you were determining uh what the facts were what the facts were i'm not worried about that in the least
You see, I think in approaching this, the whole Dean threat should just be totally eliminated.
Of course, I think Secretary Rogers... Well, let me say this.
The leave of absence will be enough.
I mean, I don't think that's as...
I know that Parliament Erdogan feels strongly he should resign and be put in a different position, but...
Ron, leave it to me.
A leave of absence is not a bad move.
I mean, it's a pretty good move with him, is it not?
And we replace him.
We don't replace the others.
Right.
Or you're insisting on a resignation?
No, I'm not.
You'll have to judge that based on what you have.
I was just thinking in terms of a scenario which would lead up to an opportunity on Monday night for you to really turn this whole...
In other words, it's based on this.
You received assurances from your staff.
When you sensed wrongdoing, you moved.
You've been consumed with it.
Now you're turning it over to a man who is highly respected, and it would be a masterstroke, I think.
Yeah.
Well, I don't know whether Rogers would ever do it.
Well, in terms of Secretary Rogers doing it, I think that...
If he won't do it, maybe I may get Richardson to do it.
Well, the main thing on Rogers, I think, is this gives him an opportunity...
And I think Rogers would want this.
I mean, he's had an opportunity to serve as Secretary of State through a very key period.
Yeah, and he used to be Attorney General.
Well, but this gives him an opportunity in terms of serving the President to give you a chance as President to move on with your work and for him to step in and play a very key role in bringing things back into order.
Well, let me talk to him to see whether there's any possibility of it, Ron.
I'll call you back on it.
In other words, he has an opportunity to help the president pulling this thing together.
Right, right.
Okay.
But I just want... That's a very good thought, and I appreciate your coming up, and I appreciate your letting me, giving your benefit.
I can see the point.
Let me bet it out with him.
Understand that in terms of build-up for the Monday night speech, this type of action, particularly with you at Camp David...
is the type of thing that will, I think... Maybe I should announce Rogers in my speech.
Well, I think it's better, it would be better not to have in your speech a major news element like that.
I see.
I think this could go today, tomorrow, and then Monday night, then you address the matter to the American people.
The first part of the speech on the Watergate thing, the second part of the speech on the future and what you... Just talking to my daughter, Tricia, who came up to tell me, you know, she's a sweet child, and told me the family had met and that they felt strongly that all Americans should reside.
Yes.
Of course...
the feeling they should resign is very strong as you know but
Ron, don't you think the leave of absence is almost going to, in the public mind, be the equivalent to resignation or not?
Yes, sir.
Or not?
Well, it won't be quite there, but you've thought this through so much, Mr. President.
It's your wisdom.
Well, frankly, it isn't my wisdom.
It's the fact we've got two guys that say that we may be sending them to jail.
That's right.
And I've got to think of that.
Yes, you do.
Because I think they're innocent.
Yes, sir.
And I'm just not going to do that.
I understand, and that's what I mean.
That is in your wisdom.
That's your decision.
But I think this, Mr. President, I think this action, which I had not thought about, but having discussed it, and obviously you had thought about it.
An action where you move on the Justice Department side, you move in terms of Rogers, you know, bringing Griswold in to work on it, or whoever, Rankin or someone like that.
Not as a special prosecutor to start a new investigation, but to carry it through, will give more weight of action to the leave of absence in the Dean move.
And only if Rogers, and I think this is a very compelling argument to make to him, only if Rogers moves in there will it allow you on Monday night to separate yourself from this matter and move ahead.
That's right.
And to say I've got the man that I totally depend upon.
Right.
All right.
Thank you.
Okay, sir.
NARA Description
On April 28, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:10 am and 11:21 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 164-013 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 164-13
Date: April 28, 1973
Time: Unknown between 11:10 am and 11:21 am
Location: Camp David Study Table
The President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.
Watergate
-The President
-Ziegler’s conversation with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
-11-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Conversation No. 164-13 (cont’d)
-Leave for Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Timing
-William P. Rogers
-Possible appointment
-Effect on Presidency
-Robert U. (“Bob”) Woodward
-Forthcoming attacks on Henry E. Petersen
-Special prosecutor
-Possible announcements
-Rogers
-Leave for Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Rogers’s activities
-John W. Dean, III’s leave
-Leonard Garment
-Dean
-Treatment
-Knowledge about Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Conversation with President on March 21, 1973 concerning
money for E. Howard Hunt, Jr.
-President’s actions
-Leave of absence
-Possible resignation
-Attorney General
-Rogers
-Elliot L. Richardson
-Rogers
-Experience
-Effect on Presidency
-President’s forthcoming speech
-President’s conversation with Tricia Nixon Cox
-Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Leave compared with resignation
-Justice Department
-Rogers
-Erwin N. Griswold
-James Lee Rankin
-Rogers
-12-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Conversation No. 164-13 (cont’d)Also recorded on April 28, 1973
- 164-009 9:09 AM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:09 am and 9:13 am.
- 164-010 9:13 AM · 12 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry E. Petersen talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:13 am and 9:25 am.
- 164-011 9:27 AM · 21 sec — Stephen B. Bull and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone at Camp David from 9:27 am to 9:28 am.
- 164-012 9:28 AM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:28 am and 11:10 am.
- 164-014 11:22 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at 11:22 am.
- 164-015 11:23 AM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:23 am and 3:30 pm.
- 164-016 11:23 AM · 24 sec — Camp David operator and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:23 am and 3:30 pm.
- 164-017 11:23 AM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:23 am and 5:35 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 164-013, April 28, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/164-013 (accessed October 12, 2026).