On April 28, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David from 5:35 pm to 5:45 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 164-018 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello.
Mr. Ziegler.
Hello.
Hello, Ron.
Yes, sir.
You up here?
No, we're leaving here at about 6.15 in order to be there at 7 o'clock.
Fine.
I don't know that I'll get into anything tonight, you know.
Well, that's fine.
We'll be there.
I probably ought to come in and work with Bill all day and be a little rested and so forth and so on.
Fine, Bill.
I want to talk to you in confidence.
The Bill thing will not work out.
There are reasons that I don't need to go into, but it won't.
but I'm working on another thing that is equally good.
All right.
I won't tell you what it is, but it's awfully good.
Okay.
And Bill is going back to, we've been in touch with the Chief Justice today, and Bill's going back to Washington.
He'll be in touch with me perhaps by 7, 8 o'clock tonight to see how it works.
Okay, good.
In the case, and it does involve a replacement of the Attorney General, in the event that it does work, I'm just thinking about the fact that
It might be better rather than to, because I've got to put Kleinbeest on the rope on that too, the better to have the Haldeman-Ehrlichman thing than the Dean thing and my announcement on Monday.
and then hit that on Wednesday, in other words, to just keep the ball rolling, to show that I'm acting, because I'm, you see, it takes quite a bit of moving around to get the plain beast out and somebody else in right away.
But I just want you to know that that's one possibility.
The other possibility, if we can get it ready, would be that I would announce it in my Monday night talk.
See what I mean?
Yes.
So I want you to know that's where we stand on that.
Good.
How are they coming on their speech thing?
Well, he is moving along, I think, and is going to have it ready by 7.
Do you mind any other developments I should know about?
No, nothing of major importance.
uh in the scope of all of this the direction of the story seemed to be going uh to um to the uh uh plumbers operation the uh specifically the uh uh the uh pentacon paper break-in but also the uh cable regarding the uh uh death of uh or the overthrow of uh damn
Yeah, which was some sort of a fake, wasn't it?
Yes, that's what... That's what... By Hunt.
Right.
Is that... That's gotten out now?
Well, that's what they're moving with now, and they're trying to draw all that together.
Mm-hmm.
Was that in the... How did they find that out?
Who was that?
Was it the newspapers or Dean or what?
I don't know.
The source of that is not clear at this point, but there are so many people talking, it's hard to pinpoint that, really.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I would assume that Dean may have been the source of some of that.
Let me tell you one interesting observation that Rogers had with regard to Dean, which I think is interesting.
First, he, of course, felt at this point that a resignation from all hands would be the best thing, but understood why we had to move in the other direction and said, well, that would be
a very good move, but, you know, not the best.
But you see what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
All right.
Then he said on Dean, though, he says that's very hard to separate because, I mean, they're very hard to treat in that way in view of what Dean has, I mean, has really admitted to me.
See what I mean?
Yeah.
And so he suggested this.
He said he remembered in the Eisenhower administration they had a rule to the effect that if any individual was charged that he...
he would be required to go and testify freely if he claimed, however, or asked amnesty or, you know, so forth, that he would have to resign.
And he suggested that the way that we ought to handle that is to have Garment go to Dean after this thing has happened and say, all right, Haldeman and Ehrlichman have agreed to go and testify without any, you know, testifying freely.
And if you, John, want to go and testify to the grand jury fairly fine, if you, however, want to go and ask for amnesty, then, of course, we'll have to have your resignation because a request for amnesty, which, of course, is crystal clear, is really a request, is an admission of guilt.
Sure.
Now, I say, well, that makes the more of a loose cannon.
And he says, we all have to realize that.
But he says, you know, his old point, it's going to come anyway.
And I think it gets back to your point.
So he is a loose cannon.
I just can't believe that Dean at this point is going to have...
He's going to raise hell, but I don't think he's going to have that much credibility.
I don't know.
What do you think?
No, not on the move you're contemplating here.
Yeah.
But doesn't that make sense to you as a way to handle it?
You cannot possibly give Dean a leave of absence and let him say, all right, go get amnesty.
Right.
That does make sense.
It's a good thought.
See my point?
Yeah.
Secretary felt that the...
overall resignation was the best way to go.
Well, yes.
Let me say the same thing you and I had thought in Florida.
He said that he understood all the human factors and the fact that this might just sink them in terms of their
that and so forth, and that if this is what we could do, you realize you have to do what you have to do.
Sure.
And this is what they're prepared to do now, as I understand it.
You got that impression from talking to them today.
Yes, sir.
They're backing off of that, are they?
No, no.
Yeah, because that's what we're going to have to do.
Do you have any idea when they're going to be up here?
I guess tomorrow afternoon.
Good.
The Secretary thought incidentally that it should be.
Should be brief.
Brief, and you have to indicate the new direction.
You know, is he strong on that idea?
The very same thing you said, a new direction.
He said not only in dealing with the press, but with the Congress and with the Cabinet and so forth.
I think he's right, which gets back to my point that I think really as far as chief of staff, I've got to be the chief of staff.
How's that sound to you?
Well, I think in the new way of operation, fine.
But as president, you've always, you know, been the
been the chief, I think, in terms of... Yeah, then you have various people that do various things, but my point is not have one guy that appears to be the block.
No, I think that's... That's the problem.
Because it would be so difficult to find another man like that.
In other words, they don't duplicate Bob, all of them.
And they don't duplicate John Ehrlichman.
That's correct.
That's right.
Bill thought, incidentally, that the Ehrlichman thing was enormously complicated by the hunting, by the fight.
He said, look,
the thing we talked on the phone, he said if they did this and if Ehrlichman knew they did it and then they weren't fired and then went on over to the committee, this is going to be very, very tough, not in a legal way for Ehrlichman, but in terms of coming back.
Isn't that really what we get down to, Ron?
Yes, sir.
We don't know when the son of a bitch left after he did this, do we?
How soon it was or how long he stayed on?
No, I really don't have those dates.
John would have that, I suppose, but...
That's something we have to have in mind.
Fine.
Well, anyway, you keep the faith.
Yes, sir.
The world will still go round.
Yes, sir.
We've got to make it go round.
Absolutely.
You're not losing confidence, are you?
Absolutely not.
Yeah.
You sound like you may have a cold.
Just a little one, but that's all right.
That's all right.
That's part of the, you know...
Don't worry about it.
If I have a little cold when I go on, I've got a little cold.
Well, the main thing, though, we'll be up there at 7, but we don't have to see you until tomorrow.
Whenever you want, you get as much information as you need.
Whatever you have at 7, you can just lay over on my desk.
Right.
Think about it and the rest, and I probably won't want to talk.
Good.
All right.
Thank you, Rob.
Okay, sir.
Thank you.
Bye.