Conversation 164-021

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Hello.

Hi John.

How are you?

I had a long talk with Bill Rogers today and he made a suggestion that I think puts the Dean thing in a context that I will maybe appeal to you.

What he says is this, he says that the way the cases should be separated is basically, and he pointed out that in the Eisenhower administration they had a rule that anyone

who was called for a grand jury and testified freely, of course, retained his position.

Anybody who testified and pled the Fifth Amendment or claimed immunity, of course, was resigned.

And he thought that the way to present it to Dean was to say, Carolyn and Mr. Alleman are going to take leave and testify freely about this matter.

You can do likewise if you want to testify freely.

If you want to take immunity, why, we want your resignation.

In other words, so it really amounts, it's going to be a resignation because he isn't going to go in and testify freely.

Well, he's all over the papers today saying that he is.

He's going to testify freely?

Yes, sir.

Without immunity?

Yes, that's what he's saying.

Well, I know.

I wonder.

All right.

That's going to be a different game then, but we shall have to see.

I saw the morning paper indicated that, but he said he would testify freely before the grand jury and the...

Without immunity.

Now, what that means is the jig is up.

He wasn't able to make his deal, and he's trying to put the best face on it that he can.

Mm-hmm.

Well, then he's...

What would that mean that he would do then?

He's going to try to bluff it through?

I assume so.

And try to say he didn't suborn Percury and he didn't... Well, I don't know.

You see, he's got a few little problems.

He's got a lot of problems and I don't know how you reconcile it, but I think you have to anticipate that he would stare Garment down on that one.

I see.

If Garmin were sent to tell him that, or whoever it was, why, he'd just tear him down.

Well, if he's prepared to do it.

But that's the point, then.

If he's going to testify freely.

I mean, our point all along, as I thought, as I understood, was to avoid giving him immunity so that he could do more.

Isn't that true?

Well, that's certainly true.

One of the objectives.

Anybody who knows anything about the case just simply can't understand why he's being accorded the courtesies of the office.

Yeah, well, let me just say that I'll have to think of something else then.

All right, I'll think of something by that time.

What time would you and Bob be up here, do you think?

Well, at your convenience.

We just arbitrarily picked 11 o'clock, if that's a good time for you.

That's good.

I'd like to meet then, and then I can get on with my talk and so forth, because I'll

I'll have to get to work.

Sometime during the time we're there, I would very much appreciate having a few minutes alone with you.

Sure.

I know that we're sort of coupled like Siamese twins in this, Bob and I, but I do have a couple of things I would like to...

I understand, Bob.

John, fine.

Of course you can.

There's moments alone there.

Let me ask one thing.

Ron said that the interest today is sort of moving toward the California plumbers' operation.

Is that right?

Well, I don't know.

I haven't been following it.

Yeah, yeah.

On that one, I mean, we can talk about it tomorrow.

Do you have any thoughts about it at the moment?

No, I really don't.

I assume that that could run quite far.

Yeah, it's a question of, basically, I suppose the question is who was in charge, huh?

Was Dean in charge?

No, I was.

And Krogh and Young, of course, ran the operation.

And the purpose was to look out for leaks?

Sure.

But from what I understood, from what we have heard to date as far as so-called electronic surveillance is concerned,

None of that.

Maybe it was contemplated, but none was tried, as far as we know, from the White House.

It was from the FBI.

Is that approximately correct?

That is correct.

As far as I know, that's right.

As far as this operation in California, do you know when he left?

No, I don't.

In other words, after it happened...

And you learned about it.

Did you have Libby and him in and talk to them about it?

No, indeed.

How did it get turned off?

I talked to either Krogh or Young.

Yes.

And did they inform you of the fact that they had done it?

Yes.

And in a word, what happened?

They had done it?

They had acquired nothing?

They had acquired nothing.

it failed in other riots and they wanted to go back again.

Right.

And you negated it.

Right.

And, well, that's a solid position, I think, isn't it?

Well, it's what actually happened.

No, what I meant is... No, I know it's what happened.

What I meant is I'm just trying to put in terms of saying that your part of it was concerned that this was something you never authorized.

You learned that they tried something like this.

You said that that is absolutely out, and you're not to do it.

Right.

That's right.

Yeah, well, let me say, in terms of...

I realize that cases are different, and we should talk about it.

I...

And if you've got any thoughts, good God, I've done a lot of praying about this, as you know.

I can imagine.

Of course you have, John.

I had a good talk with Rogers, and he feels strongly that Clint East must go soon.

Will he step in there?

No, but I have another thought that is quite intriguing.

I'll tell you about it if it works out.

I'll know in a couple hours.

I mean, it's one I think you'll like if it works.

He wants their reasons that I think are good.

I mean, mainly the fact that he's so goddamn close to me.

You know what I mean?

In terms of, in a sense, he is in the public section and all that, despite all that.

But nevertheless, whatever the reason is, he's going to do it.

But I have another...

name john that is that has not occurred to any of you it occurred to me late last night and i i just busted it on him today and we've been calling the chief justice and a few others today on it and uh it may be something that'll work i'll know within a couple hours and as a matter of fact if i if i get an affirmative i'll call you back and let you know if you like to know thank you and uh i think that's very healthy to make that change now on that let me ask you this in terms of my talk it was not my thought to to mention

mention you or Bob in the talk.

I would agree with that.

And I don't want to talk anything about that.

It was not my thought.

However, on the AG thing, it was my thought probably to do that Wednesday.

Or, of course, if I could get...

You know, get Quindy lined up and so forth, I could bust that in the talk.

Mm-hmm.

Just for purposes of my thinking, which do you think would be better?

I'd put it in the talk.

The more motion you can show in the talk, the better.

Mm-hmm.

Then I have some today, I'm going to send down to the Senate tomorrow, I'm going to nominate so-and-so to be so-and-so.

Something like that, you mean?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, just pray that Rogers has success and the telephone call he's going to make in about a half hour.

Good.

He's on his way by helicopter back again.

All right.

Did you have a good talk with your lawyers?

Yes, we've drawn two letters, one each, which we think are...

The years are different now.

Oh, yes.

Yes, indeed.

Right.

And then a draft statement.

By me.

By you, Mark Ziegler, which is about a paragraph long.

No, actually about two paragraphs long.

Referring to one or both?

Referring to both.

Not referring to them separately?

No.

I think that's correct, rather than letters back.

Rather than letters back.

I see.

I say, well, we'll look it over and see where it is.

This is what the product of a view.

Yeah, we've been at work all day on them.

They're pretty well honed.

I think you'll find they are.

Yeah.

You see, your case is totally differentiated in a very important way here.

You had nothing to do with the campaign.

That's it.

That's the point that I make.

You had nothing to do at all with this whole damn period before June the 19th.

You had nothing to do with the...

with the so well except for the call to kombach you had nothing to do with the uh that was after you know no no no no but i mean you had nothing to do with the the so-called cover-ups but at that point you don't you certainly nobody would have considered that a cover-up right right isn't it is that the position exactly yeah with regard to the with regard to the papers uh i'm just looking at yours and in terms of its

and of your lawyer and so forth what you did turned it over to as your statement with regard to

DeGray, you had no reason to think that the stupid bastard was going to burn the stuff.

Whatever.

Incidentally, yes.

Do you know who knows the contents, Fielding or whoever it is?

I believe it's Fielding.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wonder if this stuff in the plumber's operation comes from those papers, if they know, or Fielding or somebody knows.

I would doubt it, but I don't know.

But let me ask you...

Where would anybody know about that?

But, John, would that be... Dean wouldn't know.

He wasn't in that, was he?

Well, no.

He might know of it, though.

He well might know of it.

Know of it from... Well, you know, yeah, everybody confided in him.

Just for counsel and advice and so on.

That's what's so damn treacherous about all this.

Mm-hmm.

I see.

Now, you know, at one point, Dean told me that Henry Peterson was aware of that whole business.

Well, I told, you remember, when you were at Camp David, I told Peterson about it.

Yeah.

Uh, didn't I tell him?

He's known about it for months.

Oh, he has?

Oh, yeah.

You remember what I said to him?

I said, you cannot go into national security operations.

Is that its own position or not?

I think it is.

Well, I don't know.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

It is, unless it's illegal operations, or isn't that correct?

Well, even then, I mean, because your FBI...

Yeah, if it's the FBI.

My point is the FBI can do it legally, but if illegal operations by a White House person is not authorized by law, the president wouldn't be authorizing a White House staffer to do something illegal.

I'm not so sure that the FBI can legally do it.

I think they just do it.

I think a certain number of national security caps, for example, are allowed.

What he said, I think, when he talked to the plumber's operation, what Ziegler said, it was something regarding some letter that Hunt prepared from, allegedly, a fake letter from Kennedy on the DM thing or something.

But that, of course, is totally out of our ken.

Have you ever heard of such a thing?

That leads directly to your friend Colson.

It does?

Yes, sir.

Had you heard of it before?

Yes.

God damn it, I never heard of it, John.

That what?

That mean that a fake letter was supposed to... On the cable.

That a fake one?

Yep.

From John F. Kennedy?

Well, that's what it's alleged to be.

Oh, my God.

I just can't believe that.

The whole... Do you remember you were conducting...

For me, you and Young were conducting a study of the whole DM thing and the Bay of Pigs thing.

That's correct.

But, John, if my recollection is incorrect, I just said get the facts.

Well, I don't know where Colson got this inspiration, but he was very busy at it.

And he had told you that there was a fake letter or a fake cable?

Yes.

What did they ever do with it?

I don't know.

Did he tell you how they'd done it?

No.

What did he tell you, may I ask?

The fact that they had such a thing which they had ginned up, that they had prepared.

I should have been told about that, shouldn't I?

Well, I'm not so sure, but what you weren't.

By whom?

I don't know.

No, I wasn't told about anything that was fake.

I mean, the only thing I was ever told about that we were...

Remember I said the thing that you did for Life magazine?

Yep.

That's the only thing I ever heard about the DM thing.

Well, that's a part of that transaction.

There was a fake thing in that?

You're right.

That's what I believe.

You didn't know there was anything fake in that, though, did you?

You didn't tell me anything about that, John.

Well, I'd have to go back and check my notes, but my recollection is that this was discussed with you.

Well, I'd be amazed at that.

I mean, I must say that I knew that a lot was done.

I mean, I knew that we were making this study, but I didn't know that we were putting together something that was totally fake to send to Life magazine or something like that on Kennedy on DM.

Well, I could be wrong on this.

I'll try to get time to check my notes tomorrow before I come up.

Yeah, yeah.

well i've got to know about that i mean all right if i'm in i mean if i'm in that kind of a position i'm in a god i'm in a position i just didn't know about believe me i have throughout this thing i must say i've uh i have not known as you know i didn't know about the water gate and i didn't know about these other but i i knew that we were checking all this but my god i didn't know they were faking stuff but

I mean, involving that on Kennedy.

Well, as I say, I was a...

I got the second hand, but... Young or broke or... No, no, no.

I think Chuck told me one time.

Well, he sure didn't tell me.

You didn't tell me, did you?

I don't know whether I did or not.

As I say, I'd have to go back and check.

You don't...

Well, it's maybe better I wouldn't know if you told me.

All right.

Because Chuck didn't.

All right.

I mean, he never discussed the thing with me.

I thought the project was in your hands.

You know, remember you talked about it one time about the lightning.

Was it in the life story?

No.

No, I don't think so.

I'm not sure there ever was one.

I don't think Colson was ever able to bring it off.

Life or, well, there was something, I think, there.

That's what he was trying for.

No, there was a network interview of Coneen.

That's what it was.

Was it in that?

No.

It wasn't in that.

No.

So it was something that was never used.

I think that's right.

Another one of those things.

Well, thank God that it wasn't used.

But that whole thing, and it was mostly a Hunt Colson thing, ran off in a lot of strange directions that I really don't have a lot of information on.

You know, the thing about that is that Colson never told me about Hunt, that he knew Hunt, until after the Watergate thing.

Is that right?

I never heard of E. Howard Hunt.

No, sir.

No.

No, sir.

Just, just, Coneen, yes.

I heard about Coneen.

But he said people had worked, you know, he said the CIA people were working, farmers, so on, so on, so on, so on.

But I never heard about...

You know, I've understood he said he doesn't know Hunt well or something like that.

That's, I think, apparently been his line.

Yeah, they were.

But afterwards he said he was an intimate friend.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I can get back into that or not, depending on which strike.

Yeah.

You are now, just so that I can get my own thoughts...

you feel that I should go, the time should be Monday for the broadcast, right?

I think the sooner the better.

Well, it can't be sooner than that again.

No, but I'll be ready Monday.

I'll be ready.

And you don't want it too long, do you?

It ought to be as long as it has to be, I think.

I don't think you ought to... Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I didn't mean five minutes.

There's no virtue in brevity, I don't think.

No, I don't mean five minutes, but I meant not in terms of I can't go into everything that happened because that'll leave something out.

Sure.

That's what I meant.

I'm trying to get in terms of sort of the general thing.

No, I'm going to say enough, and I'm going to...

I think people would feel shortchanged if... Oh, no, I know, I know, I know.

Frankly, I was thinking of the 20, 25-minute range.

I think that's good.

Rather than the 35 or 40-minute range.

Does that sound right to you?

Yes, sir.

Yeah, yeah.

I gather from Bob that this leave business is a closed subject as far as you're concerned.

Yes, it has to be.

I can't see any way to handle it, otherwise I...

I think it's separable up to a point.

But whatever the problem is on this thing about the file thing with the gray thing, I mean, even though I know what the facts are and I know your story is right, I think it's something that we've just got to get cleared up.

I just don't think.

I had a long talk with Rogers on that.

Now, he's been an advocate of separability, and he was really, he's been, you know what I mean, he was open to it.

But we went into it, and, John, I just feel that that's what we have to do.

Do you have anything from Peterson at all that we don't know about?

Nothing.

And he will not tell me.

You see, I closed my own door there, damn it, by saying I didn't want to know what was in the grand jury.

Well, but there isn't anything in the grand jury that's new at all.

Do we know that?

I think we do.

We know that the Grand Jersey hasn't been operating for about a week.

They've been off over Easter.

I think he's horsing you on that.

He can prepare a synopsis.

John Wilson about fell out of his chair today.

We told him that.

He won't buy it.

This is the way I feel I have to move, John.

I guess one of the prerogatives of a president is to make mistakes.

you know and sometimes you have to make some and uh made my share but on this one i just feel it's the it's the right thing to do uh the the leave thing is the right thing at this point if we can if it's properly worded well you take a look at what we have all right fine okay