Nixon phone call with Petersen on Watergate scandal and John W. Dean III

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hello mr henry peterson sir hello hello mr president you get your golf in the day no i didn't too cold for me oh it's a pretty cold down there it was so i'm at camp david working yeah trying to get together a little speech and uh are you home yes sir yeah well i hope you have a chance to spend some time with your kids you deserve it after a hard week yeah

Let me ask one question, just for my information.

I know that the story today, or stories to the effect that Dean now indicates he will testify freely without immunity query, does this indicate that this...

that these informal discussions provide a practical immunity or whatever you call it?

Sir, that doesn't indicate anything at all.

I'm just asking for information, understand?

And I don't know what it means.

The last word I had is that he was subpoenaed up in New York and he would probably take the fifth up there.

When will that be, Henry?

Well, he had a fourth-word subpoena, so he's supposed to appear up there, I think, for Monday.

Yeah.

As soon as he can.

Now, I don't have any further information which would reflect accuracy.

You see, if he were to, if he takes, if he's to take the fifth there, I would have to get his resignation, you know.

I don't allow anybody to take the fifth, as you know.

But I don't know that... Because both Honovan and Ehrlichman have one of the conditions of my leave thing is that they must appear freely and, you know,

Yes.

Ask for no immunity, and that's the condition on which I will have to present it to Dean.

Mm-hmm.

You understand that?

Yes, but I don't know that...

But I don't want to be in a position where I say to Dean, look, will you appear and testify freely if you've already given immunity?

I mean, if, not when I say you, if what has been done provides immunity.

You get what I mean?

The immunity thing, in effect, is an admission of some guilt, you see.

Yeah.

So just tell me what the facts are.

Well, you know, I'll let you know, but we have no information now.

No, what I mean is no information, but what is the law on that?

I mean, when you and the attorneys, you and his attorneys have discussions and they reveal things and so forth, does that in effect provide immunity in a sense?

Well, there is an immunity by estoppel.

That's what I meant.

That's what I've heard about.

That's what I'm asking about.

But that immunity by estoppel doesn't come into play unless there is some tacit understanding.

Now, the clear understanding on the basis of the negotiations at this point is that the discussions would be preliminary in nature, that the information given to us would not be used, at the very least, without their consent.

And...

in other respects, would not be used at all.

And what information they gave was simply a demonstration of good faith on their part to indicate that their client warranted immunity.

Now, you know, that's wholly an agreement between lawyers.

I see.

But the estoppel does not come into effect yet.

The estoppel does not come into play, no, sir.

How does the estoppel come into play?

Well, the estoppel would come into play, for example, in this instance, if the prosecutor said, now, if you tell me this, you will not be prosecuted.

That has not happened yet?

No, sir.

You can assure me of that?

Yes, sir.

I need to know that before I present this thing to him on Monday, you see.

So you're telling me now that there has been no...

no immunity by estoppel agreed to as of this time between the prosecutors and dean's lawyers and uh i see uh the uh would you uh follow up on and let me know first thing monday morning indeed i will when first whether there's any change in that and second when is he appearing in new york and whether he does take the fifth indeed i will that you see is we'll

will have to enter into my decision with regard to how I handle him because I can't have anybody taking the fifth and being given a leave.

I'm sure you would agree with that.

That's correct.

Right.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

Bye.

Now, wait.

Hello.

Sir?

Yes?

Now, on that other sort of leak thing that, you know, we were talking about yesterday, as you know, neither the papers used it.

I mean, that sort of thing that was running around that...

I didn't know.

I didn't see that.

Well, I didn't see anything in the papers, so apparently they didn't.

But as far as you were concerned, the only thing they said was they called it the bombast of the lawyers saying that, well, we'll even tie the president into things other than Watergate.

Correct?

That's right.

Yes, sir.

Right.

Well...

You understand?

No blackmail on that.

Just let him do it.

Indeed, sir.

All right, sir.

Very good.

Bye.

Nixon phone call with Petersen on Watergate scandal and John W. Dean III

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 29, 1973

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