Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 164 › Conversation 164-030
Nixon, Rogers & Ziegler on Watergate and Resignations
Sunday, April 29, 1973 · 10:26 AM–10:36 AM ET · Camp David Study Table · 9 min
AI Summary
President Nixon consulted Secretary of State William P. Rogers regarding the strategic management of the Watergate scandal, specifically focusing on the necessary resignations of H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman. Nixon sought Rogers's advice on how to handle the duo's apparent reluctance to leave, ultimately concluding that their continued presence hindered government operations and that full resignations were unavoidable. Additionally, they discussed the upcoming public announcement regarding the appointment of a new FBI director and the oversight of the ongoing investigation.
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Hello.
Secretary Rogers.
Yeah, good morning, Mr. President.
It's a lovely day down there.
Beautiful.
Good.
Could I check with you, Bill, to sort of see what the game plan can be with regard to Elliott and Packard?
You have nothing further on it yourself.
Well, I told you I talked to Packard.
He said if I could work it out on the conflict question.
I called Senator Stennis this morning, told him the whole story about Elliott and Packard.
He thought it was a very good idea.
He said he'd do everything he could to work it out.
He thought there certainly should be some way to work it out.
Yeah.
And I told Elliot that you'd get in touch with him about coming up there.
No.
Let me ask you.
I think that the more I think about it, that what I ought to do is to announce Elliot.
in in the little talk i mean i mean so i have the hard news in it i think so too and i thought that in announcing him too that i have among his abilities i've been doing to you know to to to oversee this entire investigation of this and all other activities to uh et cetera and second but to assist me in in
in nationwide search for the best possible man as a permanent director of the FBI.
Good idea.
How's that sound?
Very good.
I already have a man in mind, as you know, if he survives Ellsberg.
That's good.
Byrne.
Byrne.
But how about just saying it?
But I think having the hard news to announce that I am in this talk, so it isn't just a talk, you know, about...
I think that's right.
I think...
And it seems to me you can build him up a little bit.
You have confidence in him, the public has confidence in him.
You know, he has a reputation.
Attorney General of the State, the United States Attorney.
Right, right, right.
Come in, Doug.
Come in, come in, come in.
Sorry, it's just Ron coming in.
Well, with
with Elliott, you would say that I should bring him up here to talk to me and just
Let's leave, should we leave Packard, not mention the Packard thing at this point.
No, I meant, I asked Elliot what he thought about him.
No, no, no, no, but I meant my talk.
Oh, no, in your talk I wouldn't.
I don't need to mention that.
Oh, no.
And I can say who it is, and I say, well, he's acting, and we're going to take two or three days, and then we'll come up with him if we can.
No, you can't.
Yeah, I don't want to announce the switch.
No.
Fine.
Okay, why?
In the meantime, we'll have to try to work it out with Batcutt, but... Can I ask you one other thing?
Yes, if you would.
Sure.
The... Ehrlichman is thinking therapy tough, and I want to just get your judgment on this question again as to the...
You have no... You believe that they both must, at the very least, take a leave of absence?
Yeah, I do.
Matter of fact, my own preference is for resignations.
I just think it's...
The leaves won't wash.
I'm sorry, but I mean, you just asked me, you know, my view.
My preference is Resignation II, Bill, you know what I mean.
Yeah, what I mean is I'm not leaning the other way.
I'm leaning much more.
Yeah, but you...
The sooner the better, I think.
And Ehrlichman, too.
Yeah.
Can't really separate it.
No.
Yeah.
Could, let me ask you, I'm seeing them at two today.
And I'm going to talk to Ron a little while now.
Would it be asking too much if I really need some backing for you to come up and help me talk to them about this thing a little?
Oh, I'd be glad to do it.
I had planned to come up and get to one or something like that.
Yeah, well, I had mentioned it last night.
I didn't know whether you could work it out or not.
I just hate like hell to, you know, I mean, I'm not, well, if you're here at one, that'll really help a lot.
How would you just go about talking to them?
I mean, I'll talk to them, but
What will you say?
Just lay it.
You see, the point is that... Well, I didn't realize that they were...
I thought the thing was all agreed to.
Well, all of them, yes.
But earlier when I talked to him last night on the phone, he said he wanted to raise the question with me again.
You know what I mean?
He feels that... Not only his case is separate, but I think he probably wants to give the president hell for not getting at this himself earlier and this and that.
You know how it is.
You know how...
He's not behaving well, frankly.
Not behaving well, to my surprise.
But my point is that he must not think of this in terms of, you know, for example, I had asked Peterson to give me a
A further sheet of paper, I said, now what the hell is this you've got here?
And Peterson came in Friday and says, I can't because it involves, that would involve disclosing the grand jury.
Well, their attorney, according to Ehrlichman, says, see, Peterson's harshing me.
He can give me that.
But the problem is Peterson maybe can't due to the fact that he knows damn well I'll give it to Ehrlichman-Halleman.
That's right.
No, I don't think you should be put in that position either.
Yeah.
I don't think so.
I mean, isn't the reason for resigning... Tell me in a word what you think it is, what they've got to be told, will you?
And then let me...
I mean, what would you say to them?
Would you just brainstorm it just for a minute with me?
What the hell should they be told?
What would you tell an early man, even though he says, well, look, I...
you know on the paper on on gray i didn't do anything on making the call to come back i was only doing you know i wasn't covering up anything and that's all i had to do with it as far as this plumber's operation is concerned the purpose of that i didn't approve anything illegal i was simply doing what was necessary in order to protect the national security and that was my duty but all right what do you have to answer well i thought that the rationale i did i didn't realize that they were being reluctant
They can't perform their duties now, for Christ's sake.
The whole government is at a standstill because these guys are reluctant.
But they say that half of them is working.
to if anybody else, and nobody else can do it.
And they're sort of indispensable and so forth.
You know, that's the line.
Well, that's the trouble.
That's what's been the trouble all along.
Yeah, but you're going to get that line.
In fact, they say they can perform their duties if I'll just step up and say, look, they're going to stay on until the grand jury finishes its deliberations.
All right, how do you answer that?
Well, they say the reason they can't perform their duties is that I left it uncertain.
Because I haven't.
They left it uncertain.
Well, you know, when we first talked, they said they'd do whatever you wanted.
I know.
They do it for the good of the government.
And you've hung in there with them too much too long.
They should have done this two weeks ago.
Now you've decided, and you've taken an oil course that...
I think it serves everyone's interest, and they ought to abide by their decision.
They said they'd do whatever you agreed on.
Yeah, up to a point, they said.
What they're now saying is they'll do anything you want them to do as long as you agree with what they want done, which is nothing.
Well, it's because it's the lawyers' influence.
The lawyers telling them over and over that if they resign, it's going to really prejudice their case and so forth and so on.
Well, I'm amazed.
I really am.
Amazed at what?
That the lawyer would say that?
No, I'm amazed at their attitude.
Yeah.
The lawyer would say that, but I don't think it's going to kill their case.
I mean, their case is going to depend still on proof, isn't it?
Yeah.
They, of course, get around the dean.
Of course, dean, I'll take care of him.
I think that with him, we've just got to fire him.
Don't you think so?
Yeah, but if these fellows are going to act this way, I'm not sure if it's better to get all the resignations.
I mean, that's the point of it.
Yeah, yeah.
I think from your standpoint, they all ought to resign.
If they could, well, if they could, that's what we ought to do.
Well, if they're going to do it this way, make it difficult for you, then I think you ought to just ask for the resignations and say sorry.
I didn't realize I thought the whole thing had been agreed on.
I'm really sorry.
Well, Ted, but Herligman's coming partway.
Anyway, 1 o'clock.
Bill, thank you.
Bye, Mr. President.
Bye.
NARA Description
On April 29, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, William P. Rogers, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:26 am and 10:36 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 164-030 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 164-30
Date: April 29, 1973
Time: Unknown between 10:26 am and 10:36 am
Location: Camp David Study Table
The President talked with William P. Rogers.
-24-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Conversation No. 164-30 (cont’d)
Elliot L. Richardson and David M. Packard
-Rogers’s conversation with Packard
-Packard’s conflicts
-Rogers’s conversation with John C. Stennis
-Stennis’s cooperation
Watergate
-President’s forthcoming speech
-Richardson’s duties
-Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] Director
-William M. Byrne, Jr.
The President conferred with Ronald L. Ziegler at 10:30 am.
Watergate
-President’s forthcoming speech
-Packard appointment
-John D. Ehrlichman and H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
-Leave of absence
-Resignation
-Separability
-Schedule
-Rogers’s schedule
-Forthcoming conversations with President
-Ehrlichman
-President’s conversation with Henry E. Petersen
-Grand Jury information
-Reasons for departure
-Defense of activities
-L[ouis] Patrick Gray
-Herbert W. Kalmbach
-Plumbers
-Ehrlichman and Haldeman
-Reasons for remaining
-President’s activities
-Timing of departures
-Influence of attorneys
-John W. Dean, III
-Resignations
-Rogers’s schedule
-25-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Conversation No. 164-30 (cont’d)Also recorded on April 29, 1973
- 164-027 10:05 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:05 am and 10:19 am.
- 164-028 10:19 AM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:19 am and 10:25 am.
- 164-029 10:25 AM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:25 am and 10:26 am.
- 164-031 10:36 AM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:36 am and 11:46 am.
- 164-032 11:46 AM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon, William P. Rogers, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:46 am and 11:52 am.
- 164-033 11:52 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:52 am and 12:01 pm.
- 164-034 12:01 PM · 21 sec — Camp David operator and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone at Camp David at 12:01 pm.
- 164-035 12:01 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 12:01 pm and 12:28 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 164-030, April 29, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/164-030 (accessed October 12, 2026).