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Conversation 164-032

TapeTape 164StartSunday, April 29, 1973 at 11:46 AMEndSunday, April 29, 1973 at 11:52 AMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Rogers, William P.;  Ziegler, Ronald L.Recording deviceCamp David Study Table
AI Summary

President Nixon consulted with Secretary of State William P. Rogers regarding the impending resignations of H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman amid the deepening Watergate scandal. Rogers advised Nixon against attending the meeting with his aides to maintain distance and credibility, recommending instead that the President present the resignations as a firm, unilateral decision rather than a matter for negotiation. The conversation concluded with an agreement that the two aides should resign voluntarily to maintain the 'high ground' while John W. Dean would be dismissed separately, allowing Nixon to distance himself from the scandal's fallout.

WatergateH.R. HaldemanJohn EhrlichmanJohn W. DeanPresidential ResignationsWilliam P. Rogers
AudioNARA Description

On April 29, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, William P. Rogers, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 11:46 am and 11:52 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 164-032 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 164-32

Date: April 29, 1973
Time: Unknown between 11:46 am and 11:52 am
Location: Camp David Study Table

The President talked with William P. Rogers

     Watergate
                 -President’s forthcoming meeting with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and John D.
            Ehrlichman
                 -Rogers’s presence
           -Rogers’s conversations with Ehrlichman and Haldeman
                 -President’s involvement
           -Haldeman and Ehrlichman
                 -Departure
                       -Rogers’s role
                 -Statement concerning President’s knowledge
                 -Resignation
                       -President’s conversation with Ronald L. Ziegler
                 -Leave
                 -Resignation
                       -Effect on Grand jury
                       -Justification
                                              -26-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                        (rev. March-2011)

                                                            Conversation No. 164-32 (cont’d)

                       -Efficacy
                       -Relationship to John W. Dean, III’s departure
                -Leonard Garment
                       -Nullification
           -Rogers’s schedule
                -Conversations with John J. Wilson, Haldeman
                -Presence during President’s meeting with Haldeman and Ehrlichman

The President conferred with Ziegler.

[Begin conferral]

     Watergate
          -President’s meeting with Haldeman and Ehrlichman
                -Presence of Rogers
          -Rogers
                -Return call from Ziegler

[End conferral]

     Watergate
          -Rogers’s schedule
                -Telephone call from Ziegler
          -President’s meeting with Haldeman and Ziegler
                -Rogers
                      -Telephone call from Ziegler
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello.
Secretary Rogers.
Yeah.
Hello.
You waiting?
Hello.
Yes.
I'm on.
All right.
Hello.
Hello, Mr. President.
Hi, Bill.
I just wanted to, I'm thinking over what we talked about.
I was, I think you ought to give a little thought to whether you should have somebody else there, anybody else there, for the following reasons, not that I'm talking the responsibility.
Yeah.
But I think that if the going gets tough, I can be a lot more helpful to you if I'm not in the discussion.
For example, when I had the other discussions with these two fellas, they both told me that you didn't know anything about this and were not involved.
So if they should turn on you, I'd be in a position.
Now, I don't want to hear anything else.
I have no idea what they'll say if they get desperate.
Secondly, I don't really want them...
I've noticed there's been some leaks to the effect that I advise this and that.
I haven't told the soul, so it must be coming from somewhere else.
I don't want them to feel that this was my decision.
It seems to me that you've given a lot of thought to it and talked to everybody, including the lawyers, and they said they'd do whatever you wanted.
Yeah, yeah.
And it seems to me that you shouldn't have to convince them.
Well, as far as this business of their telling you that I knew nothing about it, they did tell you that, and they've told me that too, Bill, and I believe they believe it.
I mean, you know what I mean?
When I say I think they'll turn on it, I mean, I just, you know, I anticipate, I guess anything can happen, can't it?
Well, absolutely.
I think that's the lesson.
There has to be learned from these things.
That's right.
You get shaken and desperate.
That's right.
Particularly ones that have been dictatorial in their conduct with others, they get pretty goddamned.
Yeah, yeah.
Let me say this.
All right, but let me ask you this.
Ron and I just talked a little about this, and he's just come down awful hard on the resignation side now.
He just says that the leave is going to just attract more flies and so forth and so on.
I ask you again...
Is the leave an option, or should I just say, fellows, you've just got to go?
That's my preference.
That's a preference, but I'm just trying to say how tough I've got to be on that.
That would be my recommendation.
It's tough for me because you're so close to it and so close to these men and so forth, but my own judgment is that they should resign now.
I don't think there's a possibility.
I don't think it will hurt them any with a grand jury.
I think if they do it,
I don't think...
I think they'll be able to say, you know, I wanted to be sure that the president wasn't hurt.
I wanted to be sure the government wasn't hurt.
Therefore, I voluntarily resigned.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I won't be too upset if they leave that.
I think it's a lot...
It's a lot more effective and a lot more convincing if all of them resign.
Yeah, except I'm going to separate these two from Dean.
I'm going to take these two if they would resign, which they ought to do.
God damn it, you know, that's what they know I want and what ought to be done.
If they do, then they do it in a way on the high ground.
And Dean, I just peremptorily accept his recognition in the morning.
You know what I mean?
I'm not going to have him up here to
That's the way I would do that.
I think that makes a pretty good differentiation.
They do it voluntarily.
That's right.
And you announce his.
They announce theirs, and you announce his.
That's right.
That's right.
Okay.
Well, all right, Bill.
Well, Len is up there.
Isn't he, Len Garmer, too?
No, he's going to be up here, yeah.
The reason I mention that is I thought if you decided to do it some other way, it's a good thing to have somebody else there in case you decided that way.
I'm speaking about notifications and so forth.
Oh, yes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, sure, sure.
Well, I'll be up and we can talk about it, but I wanted you to say... Are you coming up?
Yes, yes.
You'll come up, but you... Well, the point is, let me ask you this.
If you would come up,
And then if we get into a Donnybrook, then could I ask you to come over and help?
Would you mind doing that?
Well, I don't really think it should be a Donnybrook.
No?
This is one of those situations where you've given a hell of a lot of thought to it, it seems to me.
You should just say, I've thought it over, I know how tough it is.
Right.
You told me that you'd do whatever I decided on, and this is what I've decided on, and this is my judgment.
Period.
Right.
I don't think we should try to convince them, and I don't really...
The problem I have with it is if I am there having not...
I haven't talked to Wilson, and I didn't talk to Holloman.
I thought, then if I show up at the last minute, they're going to say, well, God damn it.
Right, I get it.
Yeah.
And I wonder, yeah, well, if you could... Maybe it's as well for me not to come up.
If you don't, I don't think under the circumstances you should come.
You'll stop me asking questions.
Yeah, would you mind if Ron just talked to you a bit about the thing and see?
I'm not trying to, you know.
Another thing, Mr. President, I think I'd be helpful...
and helping reconstitute things as long as I don't get in the business.
That's right, unless you don't get in with them, I understand.
Okay, Bill, I run.
Call you back.
Bye.
Okay.
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