Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 164-032
Date: Sunday, April 29, 1973 at 11:46 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Rogers, William P.; Ziegler, Ronald L.
Recording device: Camp David Study Table
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/164-032

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] Hello.
[0:00] Secretary Rogers.
[0:01] Yeah.
[0:02] Hello.
[0:03] You waiting?
[0:04] Hello.
[0:04] Yes.
[0:05] I'm on.
[0:08] All right.
[0:08] Hello.
[0:08] Hello, Mr. President.
[0:09] Hi, Bill.
[0:09] I just wanted to, I'm thinking over what we talked about.
[0:15] I was, I think you ought to give a little thought to whether you should have somebody else there, anybody else there, for the following reasons, not that I'm talking the responsibility.
[0:27] Yeah.
[0:28] But I think that if the going gets tough, I can be a lot more helpful to you if I'm not in the discussion.
[0:36] For example, when I had the other discussions with these two fellas, they both told me that you didn't know anything about this and were not involved.
[0:46] So if they should turn on you, I'd be in a position.
[0:50] Now, I don't want to hear anything else.
[0:53] I have no idea what they'll say if they get desperate.
[0:56] Secondly, I don't really want them...
[0:59] I've noticed there's been some leaks to the effect that I advise this and that.
[1:02] I haven't told the soul, so it must be coming from somewhere else.
[1:07] I don't want them to feel that this was my decision.
[1:10] It seems to me that you've given a lot of thought to it and talked to everybody, including the lawyers, and they said they'd do whatever you wanted.
[1:21] Yeah, yeah.
[1:22] And it seems to me that you shouldn't have to convince them.
[1:25] Well, as far as this business of their telling you that I knew nothing about it, they did tell you that, and they've told me that too, Bill, and I believe they believe it.
[1:35] I mean, you know what I mean?
[1:37] When I say I think they'll turn on it, I mean, I just, you know, I anticipate, I guess anything can happen, can't it?
[1:43] Well, absolutely.
[1:44] I think that's the lesson.
[1:46] There has to be learned from these things.
[1:47] That's right.
[1:48] You get shaken and desperate.
[1:50] That's right.
[1:51] Particularly ones that have been dictatorial in their conduct with others, they get pretty goddamned.
[1:55] Yeah, yeah.
[1:56] Let me say this.
[1:57] All right, but let me ask you this.
[2:00] Ron and I just talked a little about this, and he's just come down awful hard on the resignation side now.
[2:07] He just says that the leave is going to just attract more flies and so forth and so on.
[2:12] I ask you again...
[2:15] Is the leave an option, or should I just say, fellows, you've just got to go?
[2:20] That's my preference.
[2:22] That's a preference, but I'm just trying to say how tough I've got to be on that.
[2:28] That would be my recommendation.
[2:30] It's tough for me because you're so close to it and so close to these men and so forth, but my own judgment is that they should resign now.
[2:39] I don't think there's a possibility.
[2:41] I don't think it will hurt them any with a grand jury.
[2:43] I think if they do it,
[2:45] I don't think...
[2:47] I think they'll be able to say, you know, I wanted to be sure that the president wasn't hurt.
[2:54] I wanted to be sure the government wasn't hurt.
[2:57] Therefore, I voluntarily resigned.
[3:00] Yeah.
[3:04] Yeah.
[3:06] But I won't be too upset if they leave that.
[3:11] I think it's a lot...
[3:13] It's a lot more effective and a lot more convincing if all of them resign.
[3:24] Yeah, except I'm going to separate these two from Dean.
[3:28] I'm going to take these two if they would resign, which they ought to do.
[3:33] God damn it, you know, that's what they know I want and what ought to be done.
[3:36] If they do, then they do it in a way on the high ground.
[3:41] And Dean, I just peremptorily accept his recognition in the morning.
[3:44] You know what I mean?
[3:46] I'm not going to have him up here to
[3:48] That's the way I would do that.
[3:50] I think that makes a pretty good differentiation.
[3:52] They do it voluntarily.
[3:53] That's right.
[3:54] And you announce his.
[3:56] They announce theirs, and you announce his.
[3:58] That's right.
[3:59] That's right.
[4:01] Okay.
[4:02] Well, all right, Bill.
[4:03] Well, Len is up there.
[4:03] Isn't he, Len Garmer, too?
[4:04] No, he's going to be up here, yeah.
[4:07] The reason I mention that is I thought if you decided to do it some other way, it's a good thing to have somebody else there in case you decided that way.
[4:15] I'm speaking about notifications and so forth.
[4:17] Oh, yes.
[4:18] Yes, yes, yes, yes, sure, sure.
[4:19] Well, I'll be up and we can talk about it, but I wanted you to say... Are you coming up?
[4:22] Yes, yes.
[4:23] You'll come up, but you... Well, the point is, let me ask you this.
[4:26] If you would come up,
[4:27] And then if we get into a Donnybrook, then could I ask you to come over and help?
[4:32] Would you mind doing that?
[4:33] Well, I don't really think it should be a Donnybrook.
[4:36] No?
[4:37] This is one of those situations where you've given a hell of a lot of thought to it, it seems to me.
[4:41] You should just say, I've thought it over, I know how tough it is.
[4:46] Right.
[4:46] You told me that you'd do whatever I decided on, and this is what I've decided on, and this is my judgment.
[4:53] Period.
[4:54] Right.
[4:55] I don't think we should try to convince them, and I don't really...
[4:58] The problem I have with it is if I am there having not...
[5:03] I haven't talked to Wilson, and I didn't talk to Holloman.
[5:05] I thought, then if I show up at the last minute, they're going to say, well, God damn it.
[5:10] Right, I get it.
[5:11] Yeah.
[5:11] And I wonder, yeah, well, if you could... Maybe it's as well for me not to come up.
[5:15] If you don't, I don't think under the circumstances you should come.
[5:18] You'll stop me asking questions.
[5:27] Yeah, would you mind if Ron just talked to you a bit about the thing and see?
[5:44] I'm not trying to, you know.
[5:46] Another thing, Mr. President, I think I'd be helpful...
[5:48] and helping reconstitute things as long as I don't get in the business.
[5:54] That's right, unless you don't get in with them, I understand.
[5:58] Okay, Bill, I run.
[5:58] Call you back.
[6:01] Bye.
[6:01] Okay.