Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 165 › Conversation 165-002

Nixon phone call with Haig on Watergate and Wiretapping

Friday, May 11, 1973 · 5:35 PM–5:47 PM ET · Camp David Study Table · 12 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Haig, Alexander M., Jr.Conversation165-002 on Tape 165StartFriday, May 11, 1973 at 5:35 PMEndFriday, May 11, 1973 at 5:47 PMRecording deviceCamp David Study TableSourceNixon Library record for 165-002 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Alexander Haig discuss the political fallout and potential disclosure of White House-authorized wiretaps, specifically regarding individuals like Tony Lake. They debate whether to preemptively admit to these national security-related taps or maintain a defensive stance while coordinating with William Ruckelshaus on a public statement. Ultimately, Nixon directs Haig to verify the scope of existing wiretap records to ensure the administration is prepared for impending press scrutiny and to protect Henry Kissinger and Ronald Ziegler from contradictory information.

Audio

Download MP3 · 21.1 MB

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

· Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).
Hello?
President?
Hi, Al.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
What are the further developments now?
Well, this damn FBI thing is a bit of a mess.
Rockwell House is very anxious to get out and make a statement.
Yeah.
We find that he has nothing.
There is not a single record left over there and a whole great mass of conflicting statements by members of the Bureau.
Yeah.
So what he has asked is that we give him some factual data in terms of, well, first of all, he said, I wouldn't do it.
I don't think I'd do it tonight, then.
I think it's too late, don't you think, to try to do it now?
Tonight?
Yeah.
We've got to get better in position.
What I thought we ought to do is say yes for such a period of time.
Yeah.
Now, on that period of time, I think you've got a problem there.
which had not occurred to me before, but Al, wasn't the lake, you remember, who left, wasn't there a tap on him?
Yes.
Yes.
That was by?
By the mirror.
Are you sure?
Yes.
I've read, I'll be sure, I'll check that.
I thought the mirror wasn't supposed to tap after a certain...
I don't want us to get...
These are, every one of these...
that you're talking about.
Yeah, I know we're peer-attached.
Yeah.
But I know the point with about Lake, that was 71, late 71, you know.
Well, that's where we've got to get the time spans.
Right.
Now, the point about Lake, if he was tapped with me, I don't know, but just to refresh my recollection on that, was he?
Yes, he was.
There were a number of ourselves and a number of others
As a matter of fact, for one period, I was tapped.
I don't know.
Me neither.
And because of the leaks that occurred, only a certain number of people had access.
Yeah.
She became the obvious people to be surveilled.
Yeah.
Let me ask you this.
And this is a thing where bizarre girls have to get into it.
If the Bureau did not do it, we just got to take a strong stand that, yes, we did internally.
Don't you agree?
Yeah, so there's nothing in this group here.
This investigation of Ruckelhausen.
They wouldn't be dealing with anything outside of that.
You mean what his group involves?
What do you mean by that?
Well, when we tell him that... Well, I don't want him to be in a position to say that the Bureau tapped and then never did any more tapping.
You see my point?
Yeah.
That's the whole point.
I don't want to...
I don't want us to get any cutoff period here.
Don't you agree?
Sure.
Because they may have done some more.
Maybe they will have.
And we may have.
And if we did, we've just got to say we did.
You know what I mean?
I think there's no...
It'll feel a bit rough, but you've just got to admit, sure, we did.
But they had nothing to do with Watergate.
You know what I mean?
They were right.
National security tabs of massive leaks.
And I think the whole, as a matter of fact, did the whole thing internally.
Right.
Well, my guess is, my guess is, I just don't know.
I frankly would prefer not probably to eventually make comment.
I just have a feeling that maybe, remember I said I didn't think the hunt ever did any tapping, but maybe he did that.
See, the difficulty we have now, well, none of those would be in this material, but in any event, the difficulty we have is that Morty and last night testified that he had turned all of this stuff over to John.
Yes.
So the finger is now pointed at the White House.
Right.
And the question is, do we sit in the stone wall, or do we...
go out and have Ruckelshaus say, yes, I've done the investigation, and that this is generally the scope of it.
It was all legal and all approved, and it was all based on the national security.
And the results of it, the action where it was indicated has been taken.
Yeah.
And let me say that I think the best thing to do is to have him do it in terms of a statement that we prepare.
That's right.
And I think we should have that incidentally.
He'd better go through it all to see what it all is.
And frankly, if something was not done by the Bureau, I'd say so.
You understand?
I agree.
Don't hold back a thing.
It'll come out and say yes at a later point when there were further leaks that we did some other capping.
And frankly, I hope the driver thought it was a hunt, but it could have been.
You know what I mean?
I never, let me see.
I just assumed.
I knew the lake had been tapped.
I didn't know what it was.
You know what I mean?
Because I knew Henry was livid about that.
I remember on that one.
We have two boxes there.
And it's all there.
And it's very easy for us to find out exactly the scope of it.
To find out whether it's in it.
Is Lake there too?
Yes.
There's a folder for him and a folder for Alfred.
Yeah.
Well, you might, you might check, check like, uh, just, just, just one to see whether the bureau did tap him.
Right.
Right.
I think there was something, somebody told me that they tried to say that there was a, because of a, some legal decision that the FBI did no tapping after 1970.
Well, I can't believe that.
Uh, do you, I mean, it could be true, but I,
I mean, what I mean is, I know they tapped, but I just want to know whether it was considered to be illegal after that.
And if it was considered, we're going to have to make it legal by national security.
You see what I mean?
I understand.
And they tried it to us.
Right.
They will do so.
Yes.
But we'll have a statement first.
Yes.
We're all ready.
And my view on Henry is that he should just put the circuit statement out there, not brief tomorrow.
That's the way to get him off the hook.
What do you think?
I kind of think we better do that.
Yeah.
And we won't have this other out before then, otherwise he'd have tangled around the thing.
Yes, well, we don't want him to see anything, no.
What does, at the moment, something should come out from the White House as of tonight, or is Rodden, do you think anything should come out, or is that getting any press pressure?
Well, he isn't talking.
No, he's not.
I'm sure he's been in here if he has.
But we know Marty on this justifies that the stuff is.
Yeah, yeah.
Matter of fact, as I understand, he said that he had talked to Henry in detail and to me in detail before he turned it over to John, which is not true.
He did talk to Henry about these taps, the small rock out of it, whether he did it or not.
We know it was done.
We know we wanted it done.
It was the right thing to do, and that's the thing, and God damn it, the thing to do.
We've got to take the offensive and not be apologetic and say, yes, we did tap.
And the purpose was, and to point out, as a matter of fact, that hate was tapped.
That's a good thing.
Yeah, and I'm sure it was so.
I think they took it off quickly, but I think they also ended on there.
In fact, I'm not sure anybody suggested they tapped him, too.
in the early days there.
You mean of what?
In 69, was it?
Well, I'm speaking now of the late period of before Cambodia.
When did they leave?
You asked in June of 71.
June of 71.
Well, I don't know whether that's past the time that you're right to tap or not.
Let me... Hello?
Al?
Yes, sir.
Make a check on Lake's file just to see whether it was a barotap or not.
Call me back.
Right.
In the meantime, as far as Ron, Harvin, Sanning, and I know, as far as the stuff that the judges put out to you, is that really overplaying a bit to put out that messy stuff after the son of a bitch has acquitted?
Well, I don't know.
It was sort of a funny time.
He demanded this stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, from the Attorney General.
Yeah.
And I think he sent it all out to them.
In the meantime, or just about simultaneously as we got it over to the Attorney General, we got the word from the coast that...
It was dismissed.
It was dismissed.
Well, now, the point is that we should...
He sent it all out.
Oh, yes, yes.
He should send it.
Sure.
He should send it out by all means.
And I think...
At least, uh, the attorney, uh, attorney John Austin indicated it's been dispatched to him.
That's right.
And he put that out there fast.
And, uh, I'll, uh, on that score, since he's dismissed the case, let's just think about it.
Or, or what we can do with it.
Maybe, maybe it should be sent out.
Well, I think, uh, you understand, right?
The idea of just trying to maintain the security of the damn stuff.
But on the other hand, I mean, in other words, if the judge no longer, you see, if it's no longer relevant, maybe he should query him as to whether he still wants it.
If the guard just came in and all but find out what he thought, he is recognizing that something should go out.
Yeah, but let's see whether or not the judge still wants it.
My point is, I'm not sure we want to break the security on that, having in mind the fact that we might not want to break it on something else.
Right.
But that's a thought.
But coming back to Henry, you see, tomorrow he'll be there.
questions about those men being tapped.
That's right.
And it'll be very, very, very difficult for him.
Right.
Because he knows damn well they were.
That's right.
Now, I don't know.
I want to be sure Ziegler is protected.
And Ziegler, I think, has indicated that they were not.
But he had no reason to know they were.
Yes, exactly.
What he's aware now is that
What Henry was going to say tomorrow, that was with the assumption that Ruckelhaus would have had a statement.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, we got a problem.
He can't make the statement until he completes his semester.
We could do a quick job here, but I think there's some complications, and maybe we better double-check.
Well, let's double-check to see what the hell was done, and then put out a form.
Let it hang out there.
Don't you think so?
Yes, but before doing it, we better know.
Oh, yes.
That's what I mean.
Yeah.
But if you would check the link with us for my thing.
Yeah, I'll do that.
I'll be back.
Would you do that?
Okay.
Okay.

NARA Description

On May 11, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. talked on the telephone at Camp David from 5:35 pm to 5:47 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 165-002 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 165-2

Date: May 11, 1973
Time: 5:35 pm - 5:47 pm
Location: Camp David Study Table

The President talked with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.

     Greeting

     Watergate
          -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI]
               -William D. Ruckelshaus
               -Records
               -Ruckelshaus’s possible statement
                     -Timing
               -William A. K. (“Tony”) Lake
                     -Wiretap
                           -Timing
               -Wiretaps
                     -Helmut (“Hal”) Sonnenfeldt
                     -Haig
                           -Reason for wiretap
                                 -Leaks
          -White House wiretaps
                                  -2-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                 Conversation No. 165-42 (cont’d)

      -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.
-Ruckelshaus’s possible statement
      -Wiretaps by FBI
      -Possible wiretapping by White House
             -National security considerations
-E. Howard Hunt, Jr.
      -Wiretapping
-Robert C. Mardian’s testimony, May 10
      -John D. Ehrlichman
             -White House knowledge
-Ruckelshaus’s possible statement
      -Wiretaps
             -Buzhardt
             -FBI
             -White House
                   -Hunt
-Wiretaps
      -Lake
             -Henry A. Kissinger
      -Records
             -White House
      -Morton H. Halperin
      -Sonnenfeldt
      -Lake
      -FBI
             -Legality
             -National security
-Kissinger’s possible press briefing
      -Soviet statement
      -Wiretaps
-Wiretaps
      -Ronald L. Ziegler
      -Mardian’s testimony
             -Contacts with Haig and Kissinger
             -Ehrlichman
      -Haig
             -Duration
      -Lake
                                                -3-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                             Conversation No. 165-42 (cont’d)

                       -Timing of departure
                       -FBI
                -Ziegler
           -Daniel Ellsberg case
                -Actions of William M. Byrne, Jr.
                       -Dispatch of material
                             -Haig’s meeting with Buzhardt
           -Wiretaps
                -Kissinger’s potential press questions
                       -Kissinger’s knowledge of press targets
                -Ziegler’s knowledge
                -Ruckelshaus’s forthcoming statement
                -Statement
                -Lake

Also recorded on May 11, 1973

  • 434-037 3:45 PM · 17 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 3:45 pm to 4:04 pm.
  • 165-001 5:31 PM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 5:31 pm and 5:35 pm.
  • 165-003 6:30 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 6:30 pm and 6:35 pm.
  • 165-004 6:35 PM · 19 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. talked on the telephone at Camp David from 6:35 pm to 6:47 pm.
  • 165-005 6:47 PM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 6:47 pm and 7:08 pm.
  • 165-006 6:47 PM · 16 sec — Camp David operator and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 6:47 pm and 7:08 pm.
  • 165-007 6:47 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 6:47 pm and 7:08 pm.
  • 165-008 7:08 PM · 10 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. talked on the telephone at Camp David from 7:08 pm to 7:27 pm.

All 78 conversations from May 11, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 165-002, May 11, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/165-002 (accessed October 12, 2026).