On May 12, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. talked on the telephone at Camp David from 12:37 pm to 12:54 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 165-019 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello?
Yes, Mr. President.
Apparently, according to Ron, Henry's briefing went well.
Yes, sir.
Henry's worried about the fact that they asked him whether he had access to anything, and he flipped that, I mean, brushed it off.
Oh, just the way to do it?
That's right.
He didn't.
You know, it's something, Al, I wish he had put in.
What was that?
You know, as has been done by earlier administration.
Well, I told him that.
I said, Jesus Christ, do it.
Oh, would you, you might tell them that Ziegler didn't put his issue in, that Ziegler should put that out, and get out the fact that even before this thing rise, that there were 100 and blank things that the guy said in the press conference that got that figure, you know?
Yeah.
And I think we better do it today.
Get it out today, or otherwise it'll be lost in the story.
Exactly.
Now, I understand you're going to wait for an hour to see if you can reach Gray.
If not, then Ziegler will find a way to leak it out.
That's right.
We think we've got to, you know...
There's a woman up there answering his phone.
Yeah.
So they're calling him right now.
Right.
Now, I've been over these memcons again very carefully, and I've asked Bazaar to do it again himself, and he's coming over here shortly.
But my judgment is that there's absolutely no way that we can permit these to leave the building under any circumstance.
Right.
Well, I suppose our problem is with some way that somebody else is going.
Yeah.
Well, what happens, and this influences that judgment also, is that when Cushman went up to the armed services, Schlesinger sent his men cons to the committee.
That's on another subject, of course.
But they're going to hit Schlesinger, or hit Walters tomorrow.
They ask for his Mimcon.
Yes.
So we're going to just have to take the heat with the president.
Take the heat.
That's right.
And it's going to be some criticism.
But we can take it.
Compared to what would happen with these papers, it's essential.
I understand.
Well, I guess the only thing I was more disconfident of the fact that he didn't give a copy of these damn things to Helms.
Yes, he did.
He's confident.
Yeah, he said they were locked in his safe while he was abroad.
Yeah.
Unless there was some real hanky-panky guy.
Yeah, he's confident.
I'm not sure when he goes up, because I'm going to say that, we've got to say, no, there were some actions, I mean, some covert activities and so forth were discussed in there.
He has no relationship to this, you know, this matter.
damaging to the national security and therefore he cannot have them but we will be glad to testify on anything with regard to this matter that's right of course he doesn't he shouldn't get wrecked around because he wasn't there you know the difficulty with them i suppose is it read in their totality and so forth there you can get get by with them the difficulty is that however uh little bits and pieces of it will be you know damaging just
We just can't.
We couldn't weather it.
Especially that 28-2 FinCon.
It's not acceptable.
Yeah.
Well, the 28-2, if it does get out, we just have to fight it out, huh?
Well, then we'll fight it out.
But we sure as hell can't volunteer it.
Let me say, I've made the small decision to never volunteer it.
No, I mean even to let it out of this building.
We can't.
Oh, I know.
I would never be confident with it over at CIA.
No, I know, I know, I know.
That's right.
That's right.
No, no.
We keep it here.
And that's that.
And it's in this building.
That's the reason we give a gas for riots here.
Well, it's here because it covers national security matters of grave importance.
And these are recollections of witnesses available to freely testify.
That's right.
on any matters that do not... Related to this litigation.
Yeah, but not on national security matters.
And then we cannot let a national security member have a... As a matter of fact, we don't let them out in defense or state or any place else, do we?
No, we do not.
And in this instance, we're not going to let that pressure fall strictly on Schlesinger, who is up for confirmation.
You see, the tactics of it would be very, very bad if we put it back over in the agency.
all the pressure would fall on Jim.
That's right.
And I don't want to risk that.
That's right.
Yep.
Yep.
And just get him aboard that way too now.
He's got a he's in good shape on this.
And of course he's got the crutch he needs.
We have him.
We have him.
He does it.
That's right.
Now if you have him I'm confident that the pressure would
It came on it.
What is the difficulty in it in terms of the president and the damn thing?
Well, it's just that first paragraph of the thing, which all of us at the Bogie Affair.
Yeah.
Making noise, then for maximizing it, was making to a lot of important people.
He said, leave it alone.
Go ahead.
Right.
And then he also said there was no CIA connection.
He contradicted that right off the bat, didn't he?
Yes.
And all of us said that the whole affair was getting embarrassing and that the president wished, it was the president's wish that Walter call on acting FBI Director Gray and suggest to him that since the five suspects have been arrested, that this should be sufficient.
And it was not advantageous to have the inquiry pushed, especially in Mexico.
Just cannot have that.
Well, it may get out.
It may get out.
Let's be ready for it when it does.
Well, you see, I don't think it will.
And it's all going to revolve on Bob and John in the context that we discussed it earlier.
So that's where this thing is coming up.
And we do that.
We've done it from the beginning.
Yeah.
So that's... Well, the idea that all of...
to the sentence.
He was using the president's name.
That's right.
Everybody does.
And now you see, this is hearsay.
And this wouldn't come out in the courtroom as direct testimony.
But if you have a piece of paper, you've done the damage.
You've given hearsay evidence for our credibility.
That's why we have to stick the way we're going.
It won't evolve that way if it ends up on direct testimony.
And to the degree that that kind of innuendo has been stripped from this, that makes it easier for Bob and John in that context.
And hopefully we're going to manage it.
What is his proper contact?
Well, I always figure the worst is his response, because it seems like everything gets out.
I don't know, but I think with Walters, I think I've got a good man, and Helms is like, Jesus, he's just got to stand firm on this.
Well, I think in large measure, except for the first session, he can, everything he has is hearsay, so it's not worth standing in it.
No, it helps in terms of having them in common, so.
Well, that's all right, too, because that's hearsay.
No, I know, but if he had a copy, it would be bad.
He had a copy, then... Then it got out.
That would be bad.
Yeah.
So when does he get back, and you can get him, you know, basically under control, get the goddamn copy and keep it here?
Yeah, well, the czar's going to contact him as soon as he's in.
I think he's coming in tonight, uh,
Walters does not believe that he has a copy, or if you ask Walters that question.
I asked Walters if there were any other copies anywhere, and he said, no.
There's no one that's held him physically but him.
Of course, there's the possibility, as I also said, Al, that Helms made a copy, but you felt that he may not have made a memcon himself.
Oh, he may have made a minicone of a session.
Yes, he may have.
And that's important.
That's why I was going to contact you and say that that should be put in the same category.
Same category.
Because basically the whole thing says it may lead to Mexico and so forth and so on.
But I was going to point out that we were not trying to, that we were concerned, despite what Helm said, we were concerned about the fact that the whole
The gaggle of CIA people were in this thing.
That's right.
That's right.
That helps, doesn't it?
That's right.
That's right.
And that is obviously the context in which it was put in or he wasn't taking the position he took.
The difficulty is he denied it, you see.
The difficulty is he denied it there.
Yeah.
And alleged to have denied it the day before was Gray.
He said that he had denied it with Gray.
Yes.
And then they said that Walters should go, that even in spite of that, they said Walters should talk to Gray.
Yeah.
It's a very bad, the way it's very bad.
It's a big piece of paper.
Well, if that gets out, it's going to be pretty rough.
But we can survive it, can't we?
I'm sure of it.
Even survive out of it?
Yes.
What's the main plan if you survive out of it?
Well, what you do with that is you have to keep it in a juridical...
Helms put out his memcom or whatever it is.
Well, that would be bad.
It would have to be a case of some hard challenges in the session.
But Helms, on the other hand, God has no incentive to do this.
No, none.
I mean, he knows that Christod wasn't trying to
And then it gets to the other point of it's not to you is this thing in any way.
It's Barbara Jones' question of what they're exposed to having there.
Yeah, but they said that the president wanted Walters to go talk to the director of the FBI.
All right, but on that, then Walters comes in.
I'm just thinking about how Walters comes on and says he did talk to a man that he refused to try.
What does he say, basically?
He'd say that they made a check and they found that there was no CIA involvement.
I don't know what he said about his talk with Gray.
I don't know what the hell he's told, what Gray has said he's told.
I think what Gray will say is that there was some fear of this.
Yeah.
There was some fear of it.
Yeah.
Of CIA problems and that people were cautious about it.
Well, he's already testified, so I guess...
He testified, so we know.
I don't think he got into this track.
How did this damn track ever break then?
It broke because... Well, he got into the track and then he said he had to talk this matter over.
We know that.
Yes.
That's why we panicked yesterday to get Walters and find out what the hell was up.
Yeah.
He said he had talked to Walters about CIA.
Did he say that Walters had told him to stop the investigation?
Do we know anything like that?
I don't think he did.
I don't think he did.
Because as a matter of fact, he did in the reality.
Walters said he did.
No.
All Walters did was
There was sort of an exchange between the two men.
Yeah.
It was convoluted and not precise in any sense of the word.
Yeah.
And of course the later things with Dean are very good, actually.
Very good.
Well, there we go.
Well, let me tell you, if a damn thing gets out, we've just got to write it through.
I mean, you never know about these memos.
I mean, I'm
We'll be ready for each one.
But if it does, let's have a game plan and hit it right square in the head when it comes.
That's right.
Nobody had any authorization, whatever.
10%.
It's just a question of how tough it's going to be.
It's not a question of whether we're going to do it.
We're going to do it, and we've got to get through it.
Yeah, and we should.
But I agree, we should keep this right here.
Incidentally,
Bazaar should, in addition to Holland and Erlichman, and this is the top priority because he could do it tomorrow even, he should have a talk with Colson, you know.
Yeah.
To see what the hell Colson sees coming down the pike here.
That's right.
And particularly with regard to Colson and Hunt and Sidney.
Exactly.
I agree with that.
And Colson already.
That's right.
And be sure that Colson knows that he's on our side.
Colton knows he's on our side, but he knows what Lazard is.
Right.
Right.
All right, boy.
All right.
Well, keep your old chin up.
Yes, sir.
And as I said, if the goddamn thing gets out, it's just going to get on the ground.
That's all right.
It's all right.
But we can survive it.
We can survive it.
Very good.
We can survive it.
It will be very embarrassing, as it will indicate that we tried to cover up with the CIA.
So I said it was the Helms that wasn't in here, which I'm over to see Gray.
And the Green's conversation took place after this, didn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was that time that I said, go ahead.
Huh?
Go ahead.
Press ahead.
Press ahead.
And no matter how high it goes.
That's right.
Yeah.
Let's get out today some way.
Yeah.
We're in great time.
All right.
That's it.
Oh, another thing, to get Gray, make sure that Gray doesn't have to keep, I mean, to the extent possible, that Walmers was trying to, I don't care what team tried to get him to do, that Walmers did not bring any message from Garcia.
The president wanted him, Walmers, to get Gray to pipe down.
Yes, that's right.
Good God, if that's the case, Gray should have told me and resigned.
Exactly right.
But he never did.
God damn it, that was his job to tell me.
I didn't know they were doing this.
Oh, that's right.
And I don't think it's come up that way.
I don't think so.
I don't think one of it has.
We don't expect any surprise.
No, we'd be reading it if it had come out.
I think so.
I'm sure you're getting the worst news.
It's coming out here in its worst context.
That's the way it's playing.
You mean the other ones out in the grand jury?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We had no reason to feel any other way, but that's the way these things are coming.
Right.
Well, let them come now and get them out and get our own.
It's a great story.
Call me back with you as soon as you know anything about me or what you're going to do about the, you know,
about Ziegler's statement.
You better call me before he makes it up.
Right.
All right, sir.
Thank you.