{"conversationCode":"165-027","tapeNumber":165,"conversationNumber":27,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-165-027","startDateTime":"1973-05-12T18:17:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-05-12T18:21:00.000Z","startDate":"12-May-1973","startTime":"2:17 PM","endDate":"12-May-1973","endTime":"2:21 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.;","description":"On May 12, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:17 pm to 2:21 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 165-027 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDST","recordingDevice":"Camp David Study Table","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":"5.5","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part V","chronReleaseDate":"21-Aug-2013","aogpRelease":"Abuse of Governmental Power Release","aogpSegment":"Segment 0","lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 165-27\n\nDate: May 12, 1973\nTime: 2:17 pm - 2:21 pm\nLocation: Camp David Study Table\n\nThe President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.\n\n     Watergate\n          -Ziegler’s previous press briefing\n                -Associated Press, New York Daily News, Baltimore Sun\n                -President’s role in Watergate investigation\n                      -President’s conversation with L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III\n                            -Ziegler’s conversation with J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.\n          -Gray\n                -Destruction of files\n                -Washington Post story regarding the President’s role\n                -Conversation with the President\n                -White House attempts to contact\n                -Testimony\n          -White House response\n          -John W. Dean III\n          -Gray\n                -White House attempts to contact\n\f                                             -29-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                            Conversation No. 165-42 (cont’d)","filename":["165-027.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L."],"prevCode":"165-026","nextCode":"165-028","transcript":[{"start":0.42,"end":1.27,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":1.29,"end":1.53,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":1.85,"end":2.82,"text":"Did you make your point?"},{"start":3.41,"end":4.46,"text":"I think so."},{"start":4.87,"end":11.66,"text":"This thing is not playing as heavily as, you know, a lot of other things."},{"start":11.68,"end":20.82,"text":"So I didn't go out in a briefing and blast it, but I did to the Associated Press, to the Daily News, and to the Baltimore Sun, where the story was picked up."},{"start":20.84,"end":32.87,"text":"The voice I made was to reiterate what you said in your speech, that you were determined to kick the bottom of the matter, to truthfully come out, no matter who was involved, and that was your point of view from the outset."},{"start":32.89,"end":33.41,"text":"And..."},{"start":33.83,"end":59.22,"text":"reiterated the fact that any suggestion that you participated in, approved of, or had knowledge of a cover-up is unfounded, and then went on to make the point on background that consistently, as you have said, that you wanted this investigation to be thorough, complete, and with no, you know, barriers to the right."},{"start":60.42,"end":62,"text":"So, that's out."},{"start":62.77,"end":67.23,"text":"You shouldn't get across the point, though, of that quote about"},{"start":67.82,"end":76.21,"text":"Well, we can't do that yet, I'm told, by Buzzard, and then our discussions until we reach Gray."},{"start":76.65,"end":84.26,"text":"Because we don't know what Gray said, and the worst thing that could happen to us is for him to put out something which is inconsistent with his testimony."},{"start":84.32,"end":86.12,"text":"They'd secure us on that, you see."},{"start":86.9,"end":88.98,"text":"But we have a good holding position here."},{"start":89.24,"end":92.23,"text":"We're still trying to get... Well, whatever Gray says."},{"start":92.25,"end":94.55,"text":"You know, Gray is somewhat discredited at the moment."},{"start":95.21,"end":99.22,"text":"that could go burn those files."},{"start":100.06,"end":100.91,"text":"Yeah, that's right."},{"start":101.13,"end":101.73,"text":"Absolutely."},{"start":102.81,"end":107.21,"text":"And there are so many conflicting sources in this."},{"start":107.54,"end":117.85,"text":"For example, the Post points out that their sources agreed that Gray said he had no evidence that the president had any knowledge whatsoever of White House cover-up for the Watergate investigation."},{"start":119.13,"end":122.22,"text":"And it refers to other accounts that suggested that he had warned them."},{"start":122.24,"end":126.9,"text":"And then the Post goes on to say, however, the Post sources that Gray did not point out any cover-up, you see."},{"start":128.1,"end":130.21,"text":"So, he didn't point out any cover-up."},{"start":130.22,"end":132.59,"text":"He just read some of your people are conserving you."},{"start":132.61,"end":136.99,"text":"And I said, all right, get to the bottom of it."},{"start":137.71,"end":141.52,"text":"But anyway, that's the way to handle it fine."},{"start":141.64,"end":142.34,"text":"I think so."},{"start":142.44,"end":145.19,"text":"I understand they may have grabbed the phone by now."},{"start":145.37,"end":146.81,"text":"No, that was a false alarm."},{"start":147.29,"end":148.03,"text":"Oh, that's too bad."},{"start":148.09,"end":148.87,"text":"We're still trying."},{"start":150.43,"end":153.1,"text":"And we'll get them here."},{"start":153.12,"end":153.56,"text":"I'm sure."},{"start":156.14,"end":159.29,"text":"Well, if necessary, somebody ought to go up and see him, for Christ's sakes."},{"start":159.31,"end":162.43,"text":"I mean, we did everything for Gray."},{"start":162.97,"end":163.87,"text":"We stood by him."},{"start":164.54,"end":168.31,"text":"sent his name down, but I didn't think it was a good idea because he insisted."},{"start":168.35,"end":168.89,"text":"You remember?"},{"start":168.91,"end":170.15,"text":"Right."},{"start":170.17,"end":171.51,"text":"And all the rest stood by him."},{"start":172.85,"end":174.62,"text":"And, uh, Jesus Christ."},{"start":175.98,"end":179.68,"text":"I think he did a good job in his testimony when I'm able to determine that he did."},{"start":180.08,"end":180.86,"text":"Yeah, right."},{"start":180.88,"end":182.22,"text":"That's what Mozart feels."},{"start":183.47,"end":186.53,"text":"And, uh..."},{"start":186.55,"end":187.33,"text":"I..."},{"start":187.95,"end":199.85,"text":"I think I was explaining to you, bam, we have a plan to get some backwash going, but we want to do it very delicately because that backwash is, I think, going to pick up on its own."},{"start":199.87,"end":203.35,"text":"Yeah, some people are going to pick it up because, you know, that's what stories are."},{"start":203.65,"end":208.8,"text":"At a certain point, all of a sudden, they begin to say, well, Jesus Christ, wait a minute, what happened?"},{"start":208.94,"end":214.7,"text":"And I think I told you earlier this morning about some of the things floating around about Dean."},{"start":215.84,"end":217.37,"text":"The worst thing"},{"start":217.79,"end":221.75,"text":"that could happen to us would be to get anyone any feeling of evidence."},{"start":221.81,"end":222.84,"text":"We were trying to do it."},{"start":222.86,"end":223.54,"text":"We were trying to do it."},{"start":223.56,"end":224.52,"text":"That would kill our case."},{"start":226.16,"end":228.73,"text":"One of the great things about the alarm, I didn't get it."},{"start":228.75,"end":230.03,"text":"Oh, Christ, let's get back."},{"start":230.07,"end":230.73,"text":"We'll get him."},{"start":230.75,"end":231.79,"text":"We'll get him."},{"start":231.81,"end":232.74,"text":"You think so?"},{"start":232.97,"end":233.34,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":234.1,"end":234.66,"text":"Okay, boy."},{"start":234.8,"end":239.83,"text":"We're working on it now, and I'll call you as soon as we do."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler discuss the administration's public relations strategy regarding Watergate-related media reports and allegations involving L. Patrick Gray III. Ziegler confirms he has briefed major news outlets to emphasize the President's commitment to a thorough investigation and to deny any White House participation in a cover-up. The two prioritize contacting Gray to coordinate testimony and prevent inconsistent statements, while also noting potential vulnerabilities regarding John W. Dean III.","topics":["Watergate scandal","L. Patrick Gray III","Press relations","John W. Dean III","Cover-up allegations","Public relations strategy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T09:26:56.913Z"},"topicSlugs":["watergate-scandal","l-patrick-gray-iii","press-relations","john-w-dean-iii","cover-up-allegations","public-relations-strategy"],"audioDurationSec":245,"audioFiles":[{"file":"165-027.mp3","bytes":7852032,"durationSec":245.28,"bitrate":256100,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:02.713Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:58.309Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/165-027.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/165-027","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/165/conversation-165-027","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}