On May 12, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David from 5:17 pm to 5:47 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 165-031 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello?
Yes, Mr. President.
Hi, Al.
We haven't seen anything come out of Henry's thing on the tabs.
Maybe we'll get a story, but it's just a look too early.
So he's got a good ride.
We have still been unable to get Greg, despite every effort we can see Bob's telling somebody.
I understand.
I think that's too dangerous.
No, no, no, don't do that.
I'll let him ride.
So I think we're going to be, how about, did Ron put something out about his briefing?
Oh, yes.
He hit it very hard at bridging off the keep his case statement and reiterating the investigation is going to be pursued.
Or, you know, the orders were to pursue the investigation to the fullest.
Right, that's the way to handle it.
That's right.
After all, we can't make, we can't, we know the gray waters is the best one there, as if the money ever becomes, well, whenever he does get before the church, we'll just have it leaked.
That's right.
And he'll say that, when does he go, do we know?
No, we have no idea.
Right.
Okay.
Well, you've had quite a busy day.
Well, we've got an action plan that we're working on.
How's that?
It was our guy who's worked on the other fellows.
He's working on the plan with you.
Right.
You think you've got a pretty good plan?
Well, we have to fill it out now.
I think I've got the conceptual approach that's going to be very, very good.
Good.
And it's going to take probably about Wednesday before we have it all ready.
It's across the board, action-oriented, with strong substance.
So it's designed to get some controversy going, which will be of great interest to the people.
Right.
And that's what we've got to do.
We've got to get this thing pushed back.
Controversy?
What kind of thing?
Well, you know, we've got to get, for example, this Southeast Asia issue into it.
It's basically just a question of having to, having to, frankly, do our best to
to sort of, as you say, limit the damage and try to get people finally getting on to something else, right?
That's exactly right.
And get a whole new set of national interest going.
Right.
Who's got good things to do.
Well, they're going to come along, allies, somewhere or other.
I'm not being, I don't think, Pollyanna-ish.
No, no.
Basically, there does come a time when people decide, good God, let's get on with the business of the country.
That's right.
We're almost at the point to move on this.
We think when the indictments come...
Why do they think they're going to come?
What a bizarre thing.
Well, I talked to Elliot's guy here today to see if he can really help me to get one or two of them out.
It would be all we need.
That's right.
Well, basically, they've got, you know, McGruder for sure and probably Mitchell for sure.
But they ought to get the damn things out.
And that shows at least that the political process is working.
Yeah, yeah.
And, of course, then we've got to get to the prosecutor, Dave, the quicker the better.
Elliot has no further suggestions on that, I suppose.
No, and...
He's not supposed to get to us anyway.
No, he's not, but I know how it feels about the Hearn.
I've gotten this through the back door.
You didn't like that, huh?
No, unfortunately, Hearn has never had any courtroom experience.
Okay, good.
That's a shame, but... Well...
You get somebody that really, at this point, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference at all.
It's going to be done for the Lord.
I think he'd be fine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
God, I hadn't even thought of him.
I think he'd be excellent.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Right.
Good.
But I'm going to find out the list.
I didn't want to ask him directly, but I'm getting it.
I'm getting it.
Do you have any further thoughts on the members saying anything further on that?
No, except that we've reviewed it entirely, and there's absolutely no question about keeping these things where they are.
I understand that.
And the question is whether that can be done.
It can be done.
Hold to it.
I understand we can hold to it, but whether or not Warburg has any copies around or something like that.
But that Bazaar has not been able to check anything further on that.
Yes, he has.
He said absolutely not what was done there.
He doesn't know how it could have been done except in collusion with a girl who he brought from Paris and has been with him for years.
It's inconceivable.
And he doesn't recall giving any one to the...
He doesn't recall having, in the process of people reading, that they're having the ability to reproduce it.
You know, he was in the presence of the reader all the time.
Like, well, the readers were basically two people.
That's right.
Helms and, well, three.
Helms, too.
Helms read it.
Helms, he said, read, I think, the first three or four of them.
Oh, basically, Beth.
I don't think Colby had anything to do with it, quite frankly.
The functionary, he won't be brought in.
But in Schlesinger's case, they say he was there at the CIA, but he was not there at the time.
That's right.
They'll bring Jim in.
They do.
He simply says, yes, I asked Mr. Sonsal about it.
And he'll say, well, do you have a file on it?
And he'll say, he has to say then, no, there is no file.
Is that right?
That's right.
They might bring Jim in, but I sort of doubt it.
He didn't even go to the agency.
This thing was wrapped and gone by the time he got there.
Yeah.
But if he's ever asked, he simply says, well, there was no file, there was no action taken, and they never conceded.
They might ask if it's a file, and then what would he say?
That it's in the White House?
I guess that's what he'd have to say, wouldn't he?
Well, if he were asked about Dementcon specifically, might they keep him?
Tell the truth?
Yes.
Yes, I asked for him.
I...
I read them, but the point is that, you see, what I'm trying to get at, I'm thoroughly, thoroughly convinced of their correctness in terms of trying to keep them.
I'm just trying to think of whether or not it's possible.
What does he say?
He says, I read them.
Our Mr. Walters sent me in on it.
That's what he has to say, I think.
Yes, and I wasn't familiar with the details.
He's not going to sit down and study those things.
He just wasn't done it.
And Walters, when he's asked, he said, yes, I made them condoms, as I always do, and delivered them to the White House.
Because why didn't you keep them in the agency, Mr. Walters?
I don't know what you say there.
Because they contained national security, and they involved the discussions in the White House framework.
The White House framework did not involve, no, yes, we have no.
in the agency.
But the main thing he's got to use is the national security.
I think the main thing he's got to say is that, in his case, it isn't a question of when we get down to it, as to where they are, whether they're in the White House or the rest.
I mean, if that comes up, that comes up.
But he simply said, yes, I made men cons, but I cannot produce them because they were national security matters.
involving corporate operations that cannot be produced by will testify with regard to everything that does not involve national security matters.
That's right.
And another thing to remember, sir, is this man is as impeccable as a man.
Oh, I know.
I know.
And he is really going to say some spicy things in the context of the meeting.
That's right.
Very spicy.
And very spicy in the context of the meeting.
Yeah.
So...
They're going to be more anxious in cross-examination and in his witness, direct witness meeting.
Yeah, and they say, well, when they say, and he says, well, there are some, he said, yes, but they're, I, who's he say, delivered them to, he just, he didn't deliver the teen, of course, to the council here, to the bar.
Oh, he delivered them when he found that he was to be questioned.
That's right.
And where has, uh, he was counseled to go immediately make himself available to, to Peterson?
Yes.
Yes, he came to the council.
I bet your body should say that that's, if the question comes up, as it may, he should say, yes, I went to see the council of the White House and he just told me to immediately report to Mr. Peterson.
I delivered to him my own and comms and I, I'm, uh, on the conversations and I will testify with regard to everything except the national security.
Thanks.
Right, sir.
They say, well, actually, we purchased those, sir, to the White House.
We stole all.
Good God, if we were going to steal all executive privilege on a lot of other things, we can sure as hell steal all this.
Very, very much so.
And just say it's national security and a lot of that because he was going to testify to so much.
Sure, he's there.
He's available to answer any questions.
One point that I was raised wondering is that he certainly didn't come for these goddamn things that showed Dean anything, did he?
That's the thing I wonder about.
That would be inconceivable.
I'll check him, but I cannot believe it because it's quite evident what he thought of Dean.
But he does now.
I wonder if he thought of Ben, you see.
It's evident from his memcon what he thought each one was.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Dean came to see him.
Dean, the meeting that they had indicated that Dean was to go to the, well, apparently that was one of the other things.
How did Dean ever get over to see Gray?
He was ordered to by Berwickman, is that right?
And then Gray called back.
How did that all work out?
How was it?
I don't know what Dean did or how.
I know what Walrus did.
Walrus went over there.
And Helms had been there the day before this meeting and talked to Gray before the meeting here in the White House.
Oh, I see.
And he referred to it at that meeting.
He said, I saw Gray yesterday.
I told him we had no involvement.
Oh, I see.
So then they, at that meeting, told Wohlers to go see him, preferably today.
And Wohlers went the next day.
I see.
And...
they have a fairly brief discussion.
And Walters said, I'll go back and verify whether or not there had been any CIA involvement.
And he did, and he came back the next day, Gray, and said there had been none, and they had a rather lengthy discussion that day.
I see.
And the way this came out is that Gray said Walters came over.
Is that what happened?
And it's just one of his...
Yes, yes, yes.
He referred...
I'm thinking both for the grand jury and the Senate.
Did he characterize it in any way or we don't know?
We don't know.
Well, it doesn't make any difference whether he characterized it as he did.
Well, or if he characterized it his way.
Well, or his mem-cons are going to be embedded in there.
But we know what the character of all he is doesn't have mem-cons in his meetings with Gray, I suppose.
Yes, he does.
How did they read?
Did they read sensibly?
Yes.
Yes, they did.
And they didn't read like he was traveling.
There's one that's bad.
Oh, boy, the hearsay from Gray.
What was that?
And it's really the key reason why we don't want these mixed out anywhere.
Gray referred to a call from you, I think, in that one.
And nobody.
Isn't that the call I referred to where I called him about the hijackers?
Yes.
But, you know, he said, have you talked to Walters?
In other words, you said, have you talked to Walters?
Yes, that's right.
I didn't know that was in there.
Yes, it is.
Yeah.
Well, I was only because I had heard that Walters was going on, but didn't it also in there where I said that in that same conversation where I said you were going to carry the investigation to the top?
Yes, it starts out with that exchange that you said, if it goes to the top or something like that.
I mean, you read it to me, it sounded pretty good.
Yeah, it does, except the preceding part is not good.
Or it's just that you put the rumors about this.
That's right.
In the context of the meeting in Bob and John's office, say, with Bob and John, that sounds very bad.
It does in that context, but basically I was simply and frankly trying to find out whether the goddamn CIA and the FBI, who was it?
That's right.
And you didn't say any more, according to the statement than just that.
Yes, we've talked to them.
And how does he feel about it?
We both feel the same.
Something like that.
Is that what it said?
Yeah.
I said if you talk to Roberts and ask him, what does he think about a gun?
And it's...
Here, I can read it to you.
It would be bad in the context of this Mimcon.
Very bad.
Yeah.
But not in the context of... Yeah, here it is.
Last Friday, this is today.
Walters reporting on his discussion with Gray on July 12th.
Last Friday, the President called him, Gray, to congratulate him on the FBI action which had frustrated the airplane hijacking in San Francisco.
Toward the end of the conversation, the President asked him if he had talked to me about the case.
Gray replied that he had.
The President then asked him what his recommendation was in this case.
Gray had replied that the case could not be covered up and that it would lead quite high, and he felt that the President should get rid of the people that were involved.
Any attempt to involve the FBI or the CIA in this case could only prove a mortal wound.
It would achieve nothing, the President then said, then I should get rid of whoever is involved, no matter how high.
Gray replied that that was his recommendation.
Well, we had actually looked good.
Well, we didn't, but if you read the whole thing where the president says, well, that you should be rude to anybody no matter how high, that's pretty good.
Yes, that's good.
But what is really bad in the context of these men cops is that the whole series of them together start out with a meeting in which Robert was the top degree.
Right.
And then you.
it's evident that you talked to Gray separately.
Therefore, we're aware of the meaning that he was to go over there.
Now, it's all right in the context of your concern that the FBI or the CIA may be being dragged into this thing.
And that it had been reported to me that Walters was going over to talk to him.
That's right.
It's all right in that context.
But it's not a good, strong argument in the context of all these deemed repeated...
effort to get Walters to do something.
Walters to do something.
It was clearly wrong.
On the other side, however, the Walters constantly does refer to the fact that he had no presidential support.
So we
Well, basically, we've got to face the worst and the best.
Or the less worse.
First, the less worse is we've got to hold them for all we can on these things and on the national security ground.
And we can do it.
My God, it's been done by presidents and far less.
That's your life.
That's right.
The second point is that if by some terrible mischance something comes up, then we've got to
decide right now that we're not going to panic about it.
We may have a little bit of a terrible damn thing.
And we'll say that my concern was that the FBI and the, you know, my instructions were to get the CIA to find out whether they were involved, whether the FBI was involved, and have Walters talk to them and so forth.
And after all, from the perspective of the press, for God's sake, they were just one shock after another here, and now we had a major...
The difficulty is the first conversation where Haldeman says to him, the president thinks you have a little justified people or something like that.
Yes, that's bad.
You see, that's doubly bad when there's confirmation of a call to Gray to see whether or not that mission had been executed, in the worst case.
Yeah, I've heard that kind of shirt from that line call.
They had another damn thing to do with it.
And I was really calling them about the other thing.
Right, right.
And that's the way this thing has got to be evolved into the oral testimony.
Well, it will be.
That's right.
Because basically, the way it should be evolved is that you should find out that...
the president was trying to get at the bottom of it.
Dick Walters and Gray and all the rest of it.
They discussed the thing and what was the situation.
They had to keep the ultimate weapon though.
That was the last word of that thing.
It was the thing you can't remember.
It said whoever, however high it goes.
Yes, the president then said that I should get rid of whoever's involved no matter how high.
And that was his recommendation.
Ray replied that was his recommendation.
The president then asked what Walters thought.
And Ray said that Walters' views were the same as his.
The president took it well and thanked Ray.
Well, that's not bad, is it?
No, not bad.
You know, I mean, I'm not trying to cross over something that's tough, but you know what I mean?
Good God, what else would I say?
That's right.
I mean, it's a tough thing.
I said I didn't know what the hell was involved.
You said nothing that was directly attributable to any type of collusion or crime.
But the difficulty was that there was a preceding meeting in which Walters going over to see Gray could be read as being an innuendo that he was going there for the purpose of covering up.
Right.
That's exactly right.
Right.
On the other hand, Walters...
Bowler says he did not go there for that purpose, right?
That's right.
So I think, well, I'll tell you, you can't just borrow trouble all the time, you know.
Let's face it, it's not the line that I think, getting back to Helms.
That's it.
I distinctly remember Helms mentioning to me very briefly after an NSC meeting in the Oval Office where he said the CIA is not involved.
So Helms reported to me, too.
That's good.
And you see, that would be important to get out because it reemphasizes your concern about the CIA bomb.
That's right.
That's right.
But the point is that Helms, with regard to men, cons, and so forth,
You can only say that Walter's is there or what have you.
Yes, yes.
And I think Hilton's going to, if I were Hilton, I think I know what he would do.
He'd say, well, look, I turned this over to Walter.
That's right.
He conducted the investigation.
The CIA was not involved, and I informed the president of that.
That's right.
Well, that's what I'm sure he understands, because he would remember that conversation, I'm sure, very distinctly.
Or he did tell me, he says the CIA was not involved.
Right, exactly.
And actually, I remember clearly my talk with Gray, where Gray said,
In fact, I don't know whether it's in that income where he said some of your people he thinks are disturbing you or something like that.
That's right.
It's in there.
Is that right?
It's in there.
And I said, you know, take it as high as you can.
And I asked him if he'd talk to Walters.
Because, again, trying to find what the hell the facts were.
And then he said, and then go as high as you can go.
Yeah, no, you see, Waller doesn't have that here, but we're, uh, it was, it was stated, I believe, by Gray.
Oh, I see.
I looked at that.
You mean the branch ring?
Yes, I think we, we've seen that in the newspaper that, uh, there was reference that your people are, are, uh, disserving you or, uh.
Oh, that's a great statement that some of my people were just serving me.
Right.
Oh, that's another charge.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
But you see, it's in the same conversation.
So you have to remember, this is nothing but Walters' collection at the end of the day.
That's right.
It cannot be complete and totally accurate, and it would be different in its perspective.
That's right.
Right.
Right.
And so when Walter sits down now and he looks at the whole thing... And the thing that Gray got out, that was in the Gray that said, when he warned me that people were disturbing me, none of that, none of the ministers picked up the fact that I had a thank you or anything of that sort, or they just left that he warned me and that was all.
No, no, no, not at all.
Like, you can read that in the story, sir.
All right.
Each one with a little different twist.
You told me to go on with the investigation.
Yeah, it does.
It does show that I didn't do it.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
You see, I know Gray so well, and I know what I told him.
That's right.
I told him throughout, I said, Pat, you've got to do your job, you know.
Yes, what we have to get is a better handle on Gray's testimony, yes.
Well, we'll be able to get it.
Whatever it is, I know that Gray wouldn't have deliberately done anything that didn't want to hurt.
Because he knows that the first he's loyal to the president, but beyond that, he knows the truth.
That's right.
And if Ron and his thing today, he'd make it damn clear that, is Ron right there?
Yeah, let me just talk to him.
Okay, and then, sorry you had such a hard day.
No, sir.
We're going to win this fight, you understand?
I'll tell you, we get more enthusiastic the more we go.
The point is, too, that we were going to win it because we basically picked this whole comedy on this goddamn gray, warmer CIA thing.
Now, you were there at the time, for Christ's sakes.
I thought the goddamn CIA was in it.
That's right.
You know?
I didn't know.
I mean, the papers were full of it.
They were all full of it.
So I said, well, there's not as far as I was concerned.
And, of course, I would have been delighted if they were, you know, rather than having a political thing.
And I said, let's find out.
But the purpose was not to say, oh, we're concocting.
You see, the other way you could put it is that we were trying to concoct the story that the CIA was involved, and actually they were not.
But for Christ's sake, I wasn't trying to do that, Al.
Your perspective and interest, you see, would be entirely different from Dean, who had been up to his ears in monkey business.
So I had one perspective.
That's right.
And I was trying to find out whether the CIA was in it.
And the only way to do that was to get him and the jury together and find out.
Exactly.
Oh, let me talk to Ron.
Yeah, all right.
Ron.
Yes, sir.
Oh, hey, Ron, did you, were you able to sort of hit the gray thing for the day?
Yes, we worked on that all day.
There's really not...
The only thing, the only thing, I mean, you know, Chris is going to want to sit there anyway.
he would possibly have meant to hurt or anything in anything he said.
But it is true that he did say, you know what I mean, that he was concerned and some of the people were concerning me.
And that is also true that I said, look, you can do your job and pick it up and have this high up, you know, as necessary, you know what I mean, or worse to that effect.
That's the line I've been moving.
And, uh,
I covered the news magazines on it.
The thing is so diffused and confused, really, I don't think it'll have much of an impact.
Yeah.
But the line is out.
Now, I'll tell you, there's a lot of interest in this commission.
Yeah.
Good.
That's moving, too.
Good.
But on this one, at least, what I meant is that I just didn't want any impression that...
Gray had warned me that I hadn't done anything.
That's the thing, we're knocking down and we're doing it.
Gray had been after that for months, talked about how many thousand things he did.
What in the name of God was he doing?
I mean, he had an absolutely free hand as far as I was concerned.
I learned later that it was free hand routine.
And it's a natural thing for you to say in that context of that sort, particularly the type of phone call it was.
Go, you know, pursue it where it leads.
However high.
That's right.
Which is what I, exactly what I said.
That's right.
Okay, boy.
Well, how's your morale?
That's fine.
I'll tell you, we're cracking along here.
We're going to have some meetings here tomorrow.
All right.
And, uh, I feel very good.
Good luck.
Well, there'll be more crap in the van, but the main thing is I've said, oh, goddammit, we're just getting a bad rap here.
You know, a bad rap in terms of a coincidence of events with a phone like Dean overstepping himself.
That's right.
And dragging...
everybody and including implications of the present for crisis i'm trying to find out from the cia what the christ they're doing and what the fbi is doing you know and so forth but what dean's morning was apparently entirely different he must have been trying to figure out how do you get the cia and you know he's a bad apple he's a bad apple and he's rapidly being shown to be that okay bye okay thank you