Conversation 167-010

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Hello.

Hi, Bob.

Morning.

How was your church today?

You didn't get followed?

No, they got me at home before I went.

I'll be goddamned.

What did they get you there about?

Oh, they just wanted to ask about the CIA stuff and the...

answer them right that's good the same thing and i did get a chance they they uh raised i've made my usual pitch about you know that i'm cooperating fully and that i know when the truth is known there's you know it's all cleared up and then they said something about well uh did the president know anything about the helmet

comment on any specific questions i can't tell you flatly and categorically that the president had absolutely no knowledge or involvement in any kind of cover-up or anything else related to the watergate in any way shape or form good and i said i'm sure that that will become totally clear to you as the facts are known the general statements are the best to make not just

that's right the specifics at this point well we'll get into that look i didn't want to i don't want to hold you if you were just going to have lunch or something you got about a couple minutes i could go over three or four things nail them down uh for what we're planning to do first with regard to the uh i'm planning probably to meet with the leaders including

and leaders including the armed services committee and I'm going to put out all of the national security kind of stuff which incidentally is going to be very helpful not so far from your standpoint but from John's standpoint because I'm going to take the say that I ordered the plumbers operation that I ordered the meeting I'm going to say that I directed that you and John

the purpose of seeing whether the cia was involved and so forth and so on uh i think it's a good idea don't you think so absolutely i think it's essential yeah well you see the point is that the way you can clear your it's the truth and also also we clear it then and we put the issue out where it belongs that your goddamn rights we had a meeting and so forth right and uh so forth the you see the only difficulty well the difficulty with the so-called

helms uh i mean the the memory uh bowler's memcons is an application that that is the follow-up of dean's you see where he went and asked for cover because the implication there would be that

that you and John and, of course, then the president, that we set up this whole goddamn thing for the purpose of getting the CIA to put a cover on this and so forth, which is not the truth.

And John Flatley will testify to that effect or has, I assume.

I just want to be sure you know that we don't put anything in this statement that is not going to be at all contrary to what he says.

You and John have talked about it.

You had your meeting, but the purpose of the meeting was the four things that you mentioned.

That's right.

Right.

We'll get that in.

But I think that's a very good thing to do, and we're working on that today.

I'm going to slap it to him hard and tell him why we did it.

That's the only answer on this now is to go on the offensive.

do it exactly that way that's right because it's right and the whole plumbers operation i'm going to take that also i want you i deliberately am only calling you because uh i don't want to talk to john and he's out of town he's not california and obviously i don't want to talk to colson but i want to talk to you because i think you can follow through better than anybody else tell john he need to have no question i will take so complete responsibility for putting a national security cover on this also see i call peterson

on the 18th at John's suggestion and told him look you can question Hunt about anything about Watergate but you must not get the national security matters and I've told Peterson that since so and that'll stand up with me because as Peterson says well the important thing is we did get the information out there before the trial was over also he said the important thing is as you told me on the phone

uh none of the information obtained in this so-called operation ever got to the prosecution right which is which john will also remember those recollections yep well that's that's all solid i'm sure yeah second point on the famous dean papers i you'll be interested pleased to know that we've got that nailed down all four corners

the order the go order was it was was issued by you I mean to and and carried out by Houston on one day and then 24 48 hours later a no order was issued and and everybody and and there we have affidavits on that and some have notes on it that they have the no order the other point is that nothing whatever was done

any of the agencies involved you know what I mean is there were no break-ins there were no so forth and so on even though that sort of thing was in the damn paper but the main point is that as far as we're concerned you see what happened here was that this thing this paper took two months for them to write yeah I remember that and then it came into me and I had the you know that I I

And I said, all right, fine, we'll go forward on it, you see.

Let's go forward.

And then Hoover objected on two counts.

And my recollection is Mitchell probably called me, but I'm not going to say that because I don't know what the hell Mitchell would say.

I don't want to get him in it, but I'm just going to say that because of his objections, we therefore put a no order.

But that sounds pretty good, doesn't it?

I mean, it's the truth, but you have nothing to add.

I recall.

with that because as i told when he first told me about it the only thing i could remember about it was that everything i recalled was that nothing had been done that's correct well like we have why we've had bazaar i knew hoover would we've had bazaar but i checked the damn thing from a to z and nothing was done that's you know as far as we don't know of course some may have done something we don't know you are going to cover that though oh hell yes that's good

you'll be out ahead on yeah and we're put out we're going to pop the whole damn statement too good no it's it's a rough one i mean i mean not rough on us so much but it's rough in terms of these agencies recommending everything from surreptitious entry to uh yeah mugging to everything else but the point is but it was signed by all of them they all recommended it yeah we'll see you then

That's right.

That needs to be done.

It needs to be done, Bob.

Also, I'll point out the plumber's thing, why we did it, that we had massive leaks and that I had given orders to all departments to do everything that they could.

And at the White House, we developed the capability to do what we could there.

And that everything we did there was on that.

Now, on that point, just a couple things to nail down.

want to be sure because I don't want to do a damn thing that will be at all harmful or inconsistent with what you or John may have recalled and therefore have testified to.

I have no recollection of John ever telling me about the

about the unsuccessful break-in or whatever it was until after i mean until we got into the march period the psychiatrist yes and i don't know what his recollection is do you know i that's what i recall too but i can check it with him

the point is that he once said that he thought that I knew and I don't remember I have no recollection of his coming in and saying look Krogues or the group did this my you know what I mean see John says that you know Krogues stood up like a man and took the blame for it and said that Erdogan had done it

But I don't remember Bob John ever telling me, look, there was an unsuccessful break-in to a psychiatrist's office and you should know it.

Will you nail that one down for me because I don't want to say it unless it's true.

Yep.

You know what I mean?

Yep.

If I had to know, I had to know.

But what I meant is I don't want to.

Right.

I don't want John to get up and testify to the fact, well, I told the president something.

I don't think he would because I don't think he did tell me, my point is.

But he's never discussed that with you.

You've never been specific on that.

The only thing I can remember on it was simply that you didn't know.

No, I did.

You did it.

Yeah, that was in March, though.

Okay.

I mean, we heard about this damn picture, you know, and we heard about it from Dean.

Yeah, because, see, I didn't know about that.

You must have been told about it sometime when I wasn't there, because that came as a surprise to me later when no one told me about it, and I raised it, and you said, yeah, that you had heard about that.

Heard about the picture.

You'd heard about it from John or somebody, I think, or maybe from Justice.

When did you raise it with me?

That would have been probably in April.

I see.

Well...

get that nailed for me and you know you get the facts and okay i don't want to go too true too many hands here if you could do it tonight i could do it the third point is that

be sure to reassure john though that i'm taking total responsibility on this so that he can see he has very properly i think told the grand jury he will not testify with the guard to national security matters i told peterson that too on the hunt thing and i i'm saying that you know what i mean i'm not backing off that one goddamn inch yeah and i should don't you agree

right third point is that and you already told me that I just want to be sure that there's nothing that you have said or anything I was not told about the 350 transaction until March is my recollection and if you've testified to something else I of course

Right, okay.

I think at some point in March when this was coming up, when Dean had told you about Art, the concern that...

He said Bob's got a problem, and that's the 350.

I think I told you then that I could see why he would feel that because it was this question.

Yeah, but that may have been after the 20th.

That may have been part of the March 21st thing.

It may have been earlier in March, but I doubt it.

It was in that period.

But it was in that period.

I think it was probably later.

but whatever or it might have even been march 21st the other point is the uh that i need to some recollection on the part of john is on this uh this uh issue of clemency i have said you know that i that and ziggler has said that i never authorized anyone to offer clemency

Now that's a flat statement, and that is true.

I never did.

The question is, they said, well, whether or not anybody ever discussed it with me.

The only recollection I have of any discussion

which John reminded me of was on the beach in June just or July just before we went over to there and it was only for a minute he said you know looking down the road one of the problems we're going to have is that I imagine he says I would imagine these fellows will want clemency and I said well then I said well we'll have to face that when we come to it or words to that effect

uh i need to know whether he has is going has yep all i need to know is this is whether uh i just want him that's the correct correct election here you know the main point is this dean had made this preposterous statement for the effect that they talked about clemency and that john ehrlichman walked into the oval office then came back and say you can offer clemency but don't be too specific the president says so john totally denies that

does he deny that yes well the point is the other point is whether or not we discussed it and so forth as far as as far as the meeting with Colson as you I told you about that because that came in when he just mentioned it again tangentially he said about Hunt only Hunt he didn't mention the others but Hunt and Hunt's wife having been killed in an accident and

and i said well that was a factor that certainly could be considered you know that but that would have to be considered you know at the time this was not the time uh colson i think backs that all 100 i don't know you don't know either i don't know well don't you bother with that i'll handle that i can't because no no no gotta stay clear stay clear of that fine but i think you're right yeah

well that was the and do you ever recall uh or john any other discussion if so we'd have been talking about it wouldn't we uh the whole clemency thing came up at a later time until you got into it you see martin you see i think caulfields caulfields talking to so-and-so that came from dean obviously it seemed to me that it did

you yeah that he was told by dean but the dean of course said that he was told by Ehrlichman that's of course the way dean will say it yeah he's gonna have a tough time with that I think yeah yeah but what I the way I piece this together Bob is that it wasn't dean told by Ehrlichman I think dean was told by Mitchell

I think that Mitchell is the fellow that, you know, had the greatest stake here, and he was telling them to promise the goddamn clemency, and Mitchell, believe me, never talked to me about it.

What he will say, I don't know, but I never recall any conversation with Mitchell about it.

None, whatever.

In fact, Mitchell, to his credit, never discussed it.

I don't remember.

He would, I think.

it yeah i know one other thing in the paper that uh assume your people are aware of that you ought to cover probably is there's a story that high officials of the pentagon cia and state department were subjected to lie detector tests during the white house investigation news leaks that's true you know i know sure i think you ought to say so absolutely absolutely and uh

That's right.

Oh, listen, Bob.

We did hit them on lie detector.

We knew some of them were lying.

All of that we stand solidly with.

As a matter of fact, the India-Pakistan one, that's the way that was broken.

That's one we've got to bury forever because of the chiefs.

But nevertheless, I don't bother me a bit with the lie detector thing.

You're damn right, sweetheart.

Yes, sir.

Don't worry.

It gives you one more chance to agree to something, yeah.

the national security right yeah and uh let these people squeal about it the other point is that that uh i wish you would get clarification from john john i have no recollection of john or you ever asking me and i mentioned to the other day about whether you could call kombach you know at that time

And I don't know whether you have testified to that or John has or so forth.

Do you know?

I'm sure that he has no thought of that because we've gone over that in considerable detail, and that point never came up.

That wasn't even a factor, but I'll check it specifically.

I don't recall his ever talking to me.

And the other point, of course, is I don't know whether I ever talked to Kahnbach.

I'm just wondering if possibly he called me or some damn thing.

I don't think.

that i don't know but uh i just can't imagine it because this wasn't that big a deal i don't think it was routine okay you know is it all right for him to yeah well we'll have to have somebody else talk to kambach and see whether or how he got what he did and you know so forth but uh john probably knows because john had a long talk with kambach in april when he was conducting his let me ask

and uh because i don't recall kombach ever asking me about it uh frankly i i learned that that kombach was doing it in march understand i'm not i'm not uh i'm not trying to get off of it because i i think it was proper i don't i think the 350 is proper but my point is the question of knowledge right is is whether i had knowledge i've got to be sure i don't think you did but but i need to i need to know on that point what it was

And so with John, the fact of the matter is that the point's

and as far as you recall with regard to the meeting with uh walters etc the four points we were concerned about were one the fact that some of these people had been involved in the bay of pigs right to the fact that there were reports that mexican money was involved which i don't really recall that but i i didn't deny it but apparently he said well i don't know then let's see what were the other points well there was the first basic question was the cia involved

of the FBI concern about asking for guides on the investigation and we did say that they should limit the investigation to the Watergate involvement of these people because there was concern about other activities in the National Security Area that had been in the past carried out by these people totally unrelated to Watergate.

That's exactly right and that's what we intend to say.

came up i don't remember that but at that point if it did it was we didn't know what that was all about and the question was that a cia thing and then the question was their concern about the ethics that thing is so damn ridiculous in one sense that as i have said to you if we were going to do it that way why in the name of god did we have helms in the meeting

And they'd say, well, and then, well, the point is that we know inside that, I mean, damn it, Bob, we're not trying to lie here.

We're telling the truth.

That's right.

And this lurid scheme of having them on the payroll and so forth, had John ever heard of that before or you?

No.

You'd never heard about this?

No.

I had never heard of it.

You know, that was a brand new one to me.

That, again, might have come out of Mitchell, do you think, or Dean?

Or Dean himself.

Yeah, could have.

I don't know.

Well, I guess the two critical points are, one, what John, if anything, is going to say with regard to having discussed clemency.

Right, I'll check that.

Two, whether...

whether he or Kambach whether they informed me you know what I mean and the question of whether or not I was informed of the psychiatrist break-in you see because if I was informed then frankly I'm I am derelict for I mean they can blame John Bigelow also got to blame me for not firing hunting that bunch right then you see see that's that's the real question there but Bob I don't

I just can't imagine that I would have known such a jackass thing without doing it, but I don't want, if John testifies to the fact that he told me, I've got to know that.

We'll find out.

I don't think he does.

I'm sure it's not true.

I'm sure it's not true, and if he hasn't testified, I would hope he wouldn't.

But with all your other problems, you could weigh into those.

Those are the loose ends here, and I can assure you this statement is going to be a humdinger.

Great.

And it's going to lay it all out there.

Well, I think on the national security thing, I'm going to defend the bugging.

I'm going to defend the bugging.

I'm going to defend the plumbers.

I'm going to defend, not only defend, I'm going to say why we did it.

And I'm going to say why we tried to keep this out of the Watergate.

And that was that.

But these other questions are questions on Watergate that I don't know.

He's got to shift to a positive attitude on all this, too.

Henry?

Yeah.

Oh, he will.

And they're trying to make him out as being so deeply concerned about the morality of this and all that.

And that's a lot of baloney.

And he's got to get off of that and get on to the thing of... Well, Haig is... Was the question of leaking the stuff out?

Haig is being...

It's going to be very tough on them when he gets back.

If Henry wants to talk about morality, I mean, we've got him nailed six ways to one because you remember, Bob, who the hell was pushing for this stuff.

Absolutely.

Who was squealing the most about the leaks, you know, about these NISMs and so forth.

I didn't give a shit about the NISMs.

But he was right.

Yeah, I know he was right.

He was right squealing about it.

I know.

What I meant is, though, that you can't say now that whether it was immoral or immoral to bug these goddamn people.

How else are you going to get the leaks?

And that's what we were trying to do.

Well, on the other, on the more positive side, you'll be interested to know that Henry's having a pretty good meeting in Paris.

We may get about 70% of the ceasefire reinstated.

Great.

He thinks by, we'll announce it around Friday.

Second, the POW thing is going to come off.

The big tent's going to come off.

Third, we got a fantastic welcome in Norfolk, Virginia.

It got 18,000 people screaming and hollering and yelling and so forth and so on, and not one

This thing is, of course, pervasive in the country, and it affects our politicians more than anybody else.

It affects the press.

It hurts.

But on the other hand, when people talk about this business of the confidence and so forth and the stock market and so forth, all of that has a lot to do with sort of the same syndrome we went through in Cambodia and all the other things.

It's the same group.

and also the same .

That's right.

Well, that's good.

Bob was telling me that he had to sort of shore up Finch a little today.

And Finch is now accidentally going to let you lean into governor.

He came in and told me he's going to lean into governor.

And I said, Bob, just do what you want.

I mean, I've just given up, you know.

He comes in and out.

That's his problem.

and he'll do what he wants and i will but uh i don't mean that bob is bob is sort of like like the other politicians you know that most of the politicians are not about to stand up until they see how the damn thing's going to come out but aren't you pleased about that kind of reaction in norfolk at this point in time i am but i'm not at all surprised i think that's what no sir not at all i i think that's what you'd find any place

see the whole argument of the so-called and it isn't a very big crowd but the so-called resignation crowd and so forth is that well the president gets out then that the new president would then not have watergate on his back and uh i wonder if that uh how does that argument strike you that doesn't hold at all that's ridiculous really oh sure yeah of course it is of course it is

things.

I think we just, my own view is you have to fight right through to the finish on the son of a bitch.

Absolutely.

And how do your lawyers feel?

Fine.

Good.

And is he still a fighter?

Oh, sure.

Sure is.

Archibald Cox, how do they feel about him?

They say, from what they know of him, a good man, a

good as any I think that well he will be political as hell but he has some areas of decency in him I've met him years ago Wilson seemed to feel that I mean Archie Cox is not about to just get out on a vendetta you know like the other so one other thing if you could mention to John that I have told him that they asked me that Ron was questioned with about John's meeting with Byrne I just told him to tell him that

John Erlichman had the responsibility for for checking with various people who had been mentioned as possible FBI directors his discussion with Byrne was in that context only and had absolutely nothing to do with the case right because he had been permanently mentioned as a potential director but you remember the damn thing I mean he came down there and I shook his hand for a minute and that was that right right

Well, if you could run these things down, I would appreciate it.

And Alan had said that John was concerned about whether I would, my position with Peterson with regard to the Hunt thing being national security.

He'd have no concern whatever I...

The only thing he was concerned was that if you didn't stay with that position, that you had the problem with Peterson as a loose cannon.

Oh, hell yes.

You make the

I told Peterson that.

Right.

Yes, sir.

Right.

I directed him that it was national security.

And I'm going to stick right to that.

With the whole, all the rest of them.

That's what I'm going to do.

And I have told Peterson that personally, too.

Yep.

And, of course, Peterson is in a prime there.

I mean, here he was being told by the president not to go into anything that was national security.

And there was no reason for them to.

It had no relationship to Watergate.

None of this stuff has any relationship to Watergate.

You know what I mean?

Yep.

That's the whole point.

Yep.

You know, they...

Okay, if you could run those down, and maybe I could give you a call around, say, 4 o'clock.