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Conversation 167-025

TapeTape 167StartSunday, May 20, 1973 at 4:11 PMEndSunday, May 20, 1973 at 4:21 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob")Recording deviceCamp David Study Table
AudioNARA Description

On May 20, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 4:11 pm to 4:21 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 167-025 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 167-25

Date: May 20, 1973
Time: 4:11pm - 4:21 pm
Location: Camp David Study Table

The President talked with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman.

     Watergate
          -Haldeman’s attempts to talk with John D. Ehrlichman
                -Ehrlichman’s location
                      -Justin W. Dart
                      -Los Angeles Grand Jury
          -President’s knowledge
                -Daniel Ellsberg break-in
          -Herbert W. Kalmbach
                -Telephone call from John W. Dean, III
                      -Ehrlichman’s role
                -President’s knowledge
          -Executive privilege
                -White House staff members’ notes of conversations with President
                                       -22-

             NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                (rev. March-2011)

                 -Haldeman’s instructions
                 -Charles W. Colson’s notes
                      -Location
                      -President’s forthcoming conversation with J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.

Haldeman’s schedule
     -Tennis

Weather

Watergate
     -White House response
           -Forthcoming White Paper
                 -Cover-up
     -Ervin Committee hearings
           -Popular opinion
           -Witness schedule
                 -James W. McCord, Jr.
                 -John J. (“Jack”) Caulfield
                 -Bernard L. Barker
                 -Sally Harmony
                 -Jeb S. Magruder’s assistant, Robert Reisner
           -Schedule
     -Grand Jury’s schedule
           -Archibald Cox
     -President’s conversation with Henry E. Petersen
           -Conflicting evidence
     -Ervin Committee hearings
           -Witness schedule
                 -Magruder
                 -Dean
                 -John N. Mitchell
                 -Ehrlichman and Haldeman
     -National security
     -Wiretaps
           -President’s conversation with Alexander M. Haig, Jr. regarding Henry A.
            Kissinger
     -Haldeman and Ehrlichman
           -Schedule
                 -McClellan Committee
                                            -23-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     (rev. March-2011)

                       -Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
                 -Possible testimony
                       -Executive privilege
           -Jackson
           -W[illiam] Stuart Symington

     Ehrlichman’s schedule
           -California
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello, Bob.
Yeah, I haven't been able to reach John.
Oh, I see.
He's where he is to go down to L.A. Oh, that's right.
He's in the west.
He'll be coming back.
He's staying out at Justin Dart's place in Carmel.
Good, good.
With his sons for the weekend, but he went down to L.A. today to meet with a lawyer on the L.A. grand jury deal.
So he is going to be back up.
Well, let me say, I'm not, it isn't... Well, we ought to check it out.
The point that I make is that I didn't want, I think my recollections are correct on this.
You and I have discussed previously one that I was not aware of the damned, you know, the psychiatrist business until the picture thing developed, and that was late, you know.
Do you, I don't recall any discussion of it, do you?
And I don't think John ever did.
Did I ever?
I don't think he did.
Second, I think you have, have you ever discussed the business of, he didn't call Kambach, did he?
Dean called him, or how did it work out?
Dean called Kambach with Ehrlichman's okay, and then Kambach checked back with Ehrlichman apparently to be sure it was okay.
Right.
Ehrlichman confirmed it was.
The only question there is whether Ehrlichman did or did not talk to me
I don't mean whether he testified to that effect or so forth.
No, but I mean even whether he did.
It isn't.
Frankly, let's face it, it doesn't do any good for his case either on either of these points, you know.
You know what I mean?
Right.
Because basically I don't recall a thing.
I don't recall a damn thing.
And they basically, too, are also privileged conversations, as we know.
Yep.
If anything is privileged, right?
Yes, sir.
Good.
I don't think of any.
Just well to check him out, say, and to reassure him on the other points so that he knows where he stands on the Peterson thing and so forth.
Oh, I was going to ask you, you have given very thorough instructions to the whole damn staff that when they're in there as note takers that those notes belong to the president and they're not theirs.
Is that true?
Absolutely.
And I was thinking, for example, that's true of John's notes and it's true of yours, right?
And they are supposed to be in the president's custody.
That's a point that, you see, we're going to stand like a rock on.
We're never going to give up on those notes.
Right.
Don't you agree?
Oh, of course.
You've got to.
And I don't think you're going to get a rational challenge on that.
Yeah.
I don't know where the hell Clifton's notes are.
I don't know.
But was he told the same as everybody else?
Yeah, but I don't know what he did with his.
Mm-hmm.
Well, if he's got them, he can get them in here now.
I mean, you know what I mean.
There's no problem there.
I'll speak to Bizaard about it.
We'll do that.
You play tennis today or anything?
Good, good, good.
Well, good.
Same here.
It's got that...
It's clearly not sort of that foggy kind, but, you know, it's good to be here and so forth.
That's good to hear your voices.
Let me say, by God, we're going to fight this son of a bitch and win it, too.
No question.
Don't you feel that way?
I feel very good about it.
The more I see it that...
I think this step you're taking now is the real key to it.
Do you think it is?
Yep.
Get away from any appearance of... Apology about... You're trying to cover up and the reason...
and explain why there was that appearance earlier and be perfectly frank about it.
You're darn right we weren't anxious to get all this stuff out because it was a problem.
You mean the stuff on the national security stuff?
Well, yes, that's right.
We kept putting out that old stuff.
That's right.
That's right.
But, too, you know, I had another little feeling that's very interesting to me.
Well, of course, they'll chin them up as they go along.
But I don't think these hearings are going to be the TV smash hit that everybody thought they were going to be.
No, I don't either.
They're pretty dull.
You know what I mean?
A lot of people, I think, prefer their soap operas.
And they'll be on and off and so forth and so on.
And the senators don't look all that good either.
Now, they've only had two days of it.
They get three solid days this coming week.
Who do they have this week, Bob?
Well, they still have McCord for some more.
Right.
And they'll start with him on Tuesday.
Caulfield, I suppose.
And they go right to Caulfield after that.
And then they're going to go to this Barker or Baldwin or one of those guys, one of the Buggers.
I see.
And to Sally Harmony, who is the secretary that typed up the speaking thing.
Guter's AA who's supposed to give a sort of how did the committee work kind of thing again and I think that's they're trying to get through all those this week if they can't well let them just go on and on about it see then they take off for two weeks yeah I see they close they run three days this week Tuesday Wednesday Thursday then they close down
You know, by that time I would think the grand jury would have acted, wouldn't you?
I don't know.
I would sure think so.
Well, I don't know.
It depends on what your prosecutor does.
Oh, that's right.
Because he's got to get into the act now and study everything.
Oh, yes, that's right.
That may slow the whole thing down.
Yeah, yeah.
He's going to have himself a hell of a lot of reading to do, isn't he?
The thing is, too, that they really have a problem.
Peterson, even, in the last talk I had with him, admits this.
He says, we really have a hell of a problem of conflicting evidence here.
Everybody, you know, we don't know.
I said, why the hell don't you indict somebody?
He said, well, we've just got too much conflict so far.
I think they have a problem there.
I don't know what it is, but, well, of course, I do know what it is.
There is conflict.
they're going to have to zero in on.
Yeah.
When are they going to have Magruder?
Are they going to have him for the committee or not?
Later.
Oh, yeah.
No, they get to the finger fish.
And then Dean, I suppose that comes later, too.
Magruder and Dean and Mitchell.
Right.
And Erlenman and me.
I think we all come at the end.
Right.
Well, by that time, a lot of water would have gone under the bridge, wouldn't it?
Right.
But I personally feel very strongly, though, that we on the national security issue have just got to stand firm.
And that's the way I talked to Hague.
He's talked to Henry in the fall, and he said Henry's ready to stand up on this.
Okay.
Well, good.
All the way.
That's the only way for him to do this?
He said, by gosh, he says it.
I said, don't have him do any Henry immoralizing.
I said, God damn it, he's the one that insisted on this.
Yeah.
And he said, don't worry.
He said, or at least Hague said that.
Hague said he would.
So... Now, we've got the McClellan Committee and I guess Scoop Jackson on the Armed Services Committee is pushing to get us up before them.
And I think we ought to go, but we ought to wait until after your thing.
Yeah.
And then we can go and follow up on it.
Exactly.
Absolutely not.
No.
On that issue, yeah.
That's right.
which I will have said that you five authorized you to have this meeting and for certain purposes and then you can say no I can't go beyond that but I can tell you this but then you'll testify about everything you did right I'm going to have Jackson at that Tuesday briefing too I'm going to get him in somewhere or other because god damn him he's enough of a patriot that he's got to be able to see this I mean I mean of course they all see the political shenanigans of the thing but uh
I don't believe you're going to find Jackson trying to crack the president, see, at this point.
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't think so either.
I don't.
Symington, yes, but not Jackson.
Oh, well, Symington, you just, you know, you're getting reasonable out of him.
He's playing on a totally irresponsible basis.
Yeah, yeah.
Birding stuff out, I prefer.
Well, anyway, have a good evening.
I won't call you tonight.
Okay, well, I'll...
You won't have anything before, uh, what time anyway?
Probably be fairly late because it's east of California.
Right.
Swap.
Not due this evening.
Sometime back from there.
Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine.
Well, I'll give you a call sometime tomorrow morning.
Okay.
All right, Swap.
Thank you.
But as I say, I'll note the point.
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