On June 3, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:10 am and 10:35 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 168-024 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello.
Yes, sir.
I talked to Al.
I think the idea of your going to Paris is a very good one.
You'll go with Henry, yeah?
Right.
That was the thought over the weekend.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
Good.
It'll give basically the White House impetus to the thing.
That's right.
And I'll meet with the leaders that morning and give them a briefing.
Right.
That way we'll...
That's good.
That's good.
I didn't get to talk to Al very long because here were the other problems.
Right.
But he seemed to think that they made considerable progress.
You made considerable progress on your meetings and plans and so forth.
Yes, sir.
And we'll see what happens on Laird.
We'll know.
I don't know.
Al thinks it'll work out.
That'd be great if it does.
We just don't know.
It's a family problem as usual.
That's why...
Al seems to feel pretty confident that that's going to work out.
Well, Al's a real operator.
You know, you think of sacrifices, though Al's making the biggest one.
He says he's going to have to resign from the Army.
Yeah, I talked to him about that last night.
He said, Ron, I've always done all my life what I felt was the right thing to do.
Yeah.
He said, I'm not going to back off of that now.
I had a nice talk with him last night.
He's a fine man.
My God, there's so much character in that man.
It's just unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
Well, I called him later, too, last night, but
I just thought, I just don't know many people that would do that, you know.
He's a very selfish man.
Here's a four-star general with a, living in that beautiful free house with all those servants and everything, you know, and good God almighty, you know, it's really something.
Well, he's made it very clear, like a lot of people around here, he'd rather be, where he can help the president.
Right, well.
Because everyone feels that seriously, you know, I mean, deeply.
He's a pretty good spirit in the gang right now.
Yes, sir.
Right?
Sure is.
Mm-hmm.
Anything new in the morning news?
I haven't bothered with the papers.
Well, it appears Dean's beginning to make his move.
We're going to... How's he making it?
Indicating, making reference to meetings he had with you since January.
Since January?
Right.
There weren't any.
Yeah, that's the point.
The first meeting we had with him, we checked that out, was February the 27th.
But what is he saying in the meetings?
Did he inform me about things in the meetings, or what is it?
Well, he's making reference to the fact that in meetings which he had, that the matter of some aspects of the cover-up were discussed and that he's prepared to so testify.
Now, he is not saying this directly.
This is coming from various sources.
And we put out a very stinging fake yesterday.
What did you say?
Well, we...
We said this story and a similar story carried in the New York Times appears to be part of a careful, coordinated strategy by an individual or individuals determined to prosecute a case against the president in the press using innuendo, distortion of fact, and outright falsehood.
This manipulation of the press involves an unprecedented assault on judicial and administrative due process.
Its objective stated in the simplest terms is to destroy the president.
We categorically deny the assertions and implications of this story.
Of course we can't, we don't know really, Ron, how much we can deny because except that what our own records show, you know, February the 27th was the first time he came in, you know.
Right.
And he was in, but not then on the cover-up stuff, right?
No, he was talking about that.
But in March, well, but in March, even before the 21st, I mean, the only, that's where I told you my memory's not absolutely clear.
In March, it is possible.
Not about the cover-up, but that he might have mentioned the 350 thing, you see.
It's possible.
I don't know.
The 350 thing.
The Haldeman 350?
Yeah.
Well, that's nothing.
Yeah, I know, but that's what I mean.
The 350 thing.
And it is possible that the only other thing that I don't have a clear recollection on is whether he might have mentioned the Kambach thing.
But understand...
I can assure you, nothing before March.
Oh, I know that.
Nothing before March, because... Well, and he's indicating that we're January, and... That's right.
Well, we checked our records to be sure that February 27th, the first time you saw me.
Well, I know that.
We're doing that, yes, sir.
I just know that we checked... You see, Ron, we checked that out before we issued the first, even the first statement, you know.
Forever.
February 27th was the first time he saw me, February 27th, with Dick Moore.
And now he went to La Costa, you know, he was out there with Haldeman and Ehrlichman, but he did not see me.
So that's the only other time that that's, but he didn't see me, and they didn't talk to me about it either, so they didn't talk to me, so there was no problem there.
Actually, my first knowledge of anything was in that period.
Actually, Mr. President, I'll tell you, when you look at people that
In these situations, one of the biggest fighters here, quite frankly, is Garmin.
Yeah.
And we're having a meeting here at 1030 in my office to review this.
What we, and I don't want to, it's nothing you should mean.
Well, I want to say, I'd like to, because it's on the front page of the paper, but it's something that we can meet on today.
These are not straight allegations from Dean.
And they are references from leaks from the prosecutors and from apparently conversations with Dash.
Now, we're going to meet here this morning to determine exactly what strategy we should follow in terms of dealing with that situation itself, where, you know, this type of statement can come from sources in two newspapers.
Basically the same type of story.
Sourced to prosecutors and sourced to the Irving Committee.
Now this is just something that can't take place.
And we discussed yesterday how we should handle the Dean thing.
Our judgment is that we'll be very delicate at this time so that we don't have our adversaries putting their arms around Dean and... Yeah, I know.
Don't make him attractive to the hero.
But this could be a... Well, I don't know yet, but this could be a good catalyst for us.
You know, as we move through this process, this type of approach and this type of strategy that they're following.
Let me, just for your own guidance in this sort of thing, let me just ask, did the stories say that the president, that he informed the president in telephone conversations or what?
No, it's diffused.
We had no telephone conversations in that period, I can assure you.
Not until later.
Not until March.
Not until March, that's right.
None.
That you can check.
But they have checked the files, Ron.
We did it before, didn't we?
Sure.
I mean, you know, I wasn't trying to tell if he'd met me in January.
I would have said so.
Right.
And February 27th was the first meeting with Dick Moore.
27th and 28th, as I recall.
And you can get the time to the meetings.
Right.
But the point is, what are the allegations?
Just run them over briefly.
Well, simply that
in January and March, which is, of course, incorrect.
35 to 40.
Right.
That's incorrect.
You met with him extensively in March, but not fully time.
And most of the discussions in February and indeed in the early part of March were on the executive privilege and were based on the discussions as to how we handle the urban committee.
I recall that very clearly.
I think that was it.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
And also in preparation for your press conference.
Which was when?
On March the 15th.
That's right.
Now, what it appears they may be attempting to do here, although we don't have it totally sorted out yet, is to attempt to put attention on the investigating period, you see.
Meaning what?
Well, meaning that...
The effort here could be on the part of Dean to suggest that the period in March and April, when you were finding out what in the hell was going on, was a period that you were involved in some sort of discussion of a cover-up, which we know very full well is not the case.
You see?
You mean the point that, in other words, that that's what the 30 and 40 meetings were about in effect?
That's right.
Well, the first time that he ever, that the word corrupt, that he ever used it was on March 21st.
That I know.
That's the first time that was ever used.
See, we did not deny that...
any statement made at that time.
What we were saying is that the assertions and implications that you were involved or that the White House was involved from the presidential level in the cover-up is absolutely false.
That's absolutely correct.
Now, what they appear to be doing in this story is to focus some attention on that March 21st period.
We have two areas of attack here which we have to assess.
One is that, you know, this is just a farce.
Both two stories
calculated to run in the Sunday paper by not the press so much as by those who have a self-interest in here, self-serving interest in this thing, based upon leaks from the committee and from the prosecutors who appear in the newspaper.
Now, you know, this could mean that we call for a very firm investigation in a statement which says, let's knock all this off.
That's one option.
We have several other options to redeem.
But I think we're moving close here to a showdown.
Which is good.
On the other side of things, the front page of the paper indicates the Soviet embassy had the Pentagon Papers in 1971.
A big front page story on that which supports the national security concerns.
Houston has a very good story out of Indianapolis on pointing out the environment that existed in 1970.
So we have that type of thing.
But getting back to this one, which is really the key to the whole thing.
We really got to get the facts, and God damn it, can't we find out how many times we did meet with them?
Oh, yes, sir, we have all that.
What does it say?
What is it?
You got it there in front of you?
I don't have it here.
We're meeting at 1030.
Why don't you take that?
I think it's something like 20 times in March and April.
In the period of the investigation?
In the period of the investigation, yes, sir.
Well, the investigation is, we are, we have, we, we, our hearts turn only for one thing, which we, I just didn't think carefully about at the time.
That is that we began the investigation on March 21st, which would indicate, you know, that we didn't do anything before that.
Well, actually, it really, in a sense, began before that, Ron, as you know.
I mean, the March 21st is when I really took it over myself.
Right.
But you can handle that, don't you think?
Or can you?
Yes, I think so.
I mean, the point is, facts were brought to my attention.
And then I did that.
And then also, in our statement, you know, we hitched that just a little in terms of I had no knowledge of any until March.
Didn't I say that?
Yes, sir.
I didn't say March 21st.
That's right.
Well, that's good.
I'll just put it leaving in March.
That's it.
Because that's when we had the payments to the defendants.
And March 21st was the first time we had any knowledge of anything else.
Correct.
I don't believe there could have been 20 meetings on that period.
I don't see how you could possibly have had it, because I was out, in other words, you start February 28th, and the last time I met with him was March 21st, except for one meeting on April 16th.
Now, you mean that I met twice a day with him in that period?
No, I don't have the log right in front of me.
We're going to have that at 10.30, but there was a meeting or two in February, then there were several meetings in March where we discussed the press conference thing.
There were some discussions about the executive privilege matter.
And, you know, in a period of 60 to 70 days, 20 meetings isn't that much.
16 or 17 days.
No, it's 60 or 70 days.
No, but we did, that is what we're talking about.
Well, you're talking about.
We're talking about actually from February 28th to March 31st, because basically that was the, except for April 16th, I never saw him again.
You see what I mean?
Right.
Well, anyway.
How do you figure, when you talk about Dean making his move and so forth, do you think this is him making the move or these are the prosecutors?
I think it's Dean making the move.
And what do you think he's up to, trying to get his clemency, I mean, his immunity?
I think trying to get the thing, partially on the part of the objective is to get a city, I would assume, but also to try and get this thing so distorted in the public presses that it could never really be sorted out, you see.
Well, of course, the problem with this thing is, Ron, is that, God damn it, this is a direct assault on the president's honesty.
God damn it.
That's correct, sir.
This is what we said.
It's a straight-out political fight.
And that's exactly the way we're going to approach it.
I mean, you can... Garment has no doubt that that is the right thing to do, too.
He thinks that's what you've got to do now, because...
Look, I'm telling the truth in this goddamn thing.
You know what I mean?
The thing is, since that is the case, we're up against a very tough situation where how the hell do you defend about outright distortion just like this?
But go on and fill the me in and I'm starting to let you go because I see it's 1025 right now.
Right.
Well, I mean, basically the only thing to fill you in on is that...
He says that he met with you a hundred times.
According to sources, either from the South Committee or the prosecution, that Dean met on at least 35 to 40 occasions between January and April.
And in the course of those discussions, Dean draws a conclusion that you had some awareness of the cover-up.
But he has no documentation to prove this other than his recollection.
And that's really basically the rest of the story that goes on through the same hole.
I wonder why they say he has no documentation.
Well, he really hasn't, has he?
That's right.
The story then is being guarded a little.
Is that the purpose of it?
They don't go out as far as that?
Wow.
And on the basis of that, he says that I had somewhat awareness of the...
Well, I did.
Of course I had awareness of the goddamn cover-up from March 21st on.
You're damn right.
March 21st on.
But from up until March 21st, he never indicated that it was a cover-up.
Mr. President, I'm convinced also that even after March 21st,
We are not...
I wasn't sure.
We did not feel that Dean was culpable.
I did not feel based on what Dean was saying.
And I don't...
The dilemma we face in this is that... We kept defending him.
No, that's not the dilemma.
The dilemma is that...
We were operating, you were operating, on a limited scope of knowledge in all of this.
And here Dean was putting everything in the context of his culpability, which ran over 10 months previous to that.
And therefore, everything he said or that was said to him, he put in a different context than certainly you did.
He never referred.
He never referred up during all these discussions that we had.
He never referred to anybody at the White House being guilty of anything.
Including himself.
Until March 21st.
Then he started raising a fight.
That they might be.
You know what I mean?
Wait a minute.
Let me be more accurate.
He expressed a fear, but he didn't reveal to me all the things he'd done.
The subordination of Percocet, the promise of clemency.
All the rest, he didn't reveal any of that, you see.
He was only indicating, well, that because of the fact that the, there he was indicating that the money thing was what was worrying him, you know?
And as I told you, the March 21st time was when he told about, you know, the threat of a blackmail.
And that was what set me off, frankly.
I said, we just can't go down this road.
As I told you, he said, you know,
It's wrong.
It costs an enormous amount.
You'd have to have clemency.
You can't have clemency.
Period.
So he knows damn well what the truth is there.
But there's also the possibility that he is, you know, distorting for the suit of his own purposes.
Sure.
And in order to get his immunity.
Because he knows that the prosecutors, that's what they want to get the president.
What does Len think about it all?
What does he say?
What does he think we ought to say?
Len's in a fighting mood.
Len wants to, as a matter of fact, if there's anyone we have to hold down, it's Len.
Yeah.
What's the Bazaard thing?
Bazaard feels that this might be the time.
We just call their hand.
Who's we, Ron?
Well, the White House and those who speak.
Who's going to be at your meeting today?
Len.
uh bizarre yourself and myself and then we're going to kick it around and then get haig and yeah yeah don't don't don't he's got so much on his mind what we'd like to do is sit down and review the record review uh our thinking on it and then talk to al bringing him in as an outside point of view and then we'll be ready to
to assess where we go.
Now, looking at it from our standpoint, at its best, we've got to realize that first we have categorical, as you know, we checked with Haldeman, and I checked with Haldeman, and he checked with Ehrlichman.
There are assertions that Haldeman did not tell me about the .350.
Ehrlichman did not tell me about the Kambach thing.
You understand?
Right.
So, therefore, you bring that up into the period of the Dean thing.
That's the first time the whole damn thing came up.
The other thing is that in terms of this thing, we do know that in March, we started to be first set to ask Dean, you know, to, well, let's get this damn thing out, you know, right?
And he went to Camp David and didn't.
And then I gradually slipped Ehrlichman into it.
We were both having him built.
But my whole point was I couldn't do anything based on simply, after all this period of time, based simply on...
assertions that, well, Bittman might be doing this and that.
We had to find out what the hell the score was.
And I continued to conduct it.
And finally, Ehrlichman, as a matter of fact, as I told you before, Ehrlichman and Magruder came to the wire about the same time, April 14th.
And Ehrlichman, as you know, has given his notes to the U.S. attorney, pardon me, to the grand jury.
due to the fact that I had authorized him to give it to the Attorney General.
Well, I don't know.
I suppose in a sense, Ron, we've just got to figure that this is just another round in the battle.
It may be, too, that you've got this thing running.
It occurred to me just now that they must have sensed what we sensed last week, that the thing would start turning more in our direction.
And they needed a, they needed a pump, don't you think, to pump up things.
Could the well-being be what this is about?
Could be.
But also it may be the beginning of their all-out assault and so forth.
But I think, God, maybe we just got to get some of, I wonder if we don't have to get some of our people out saying something, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, and others on that.
Will you consider that?
Absolutely.
Haldeman, Ehrlichman, and Colson, you know, for example, they can pop.
this thing they were there and uh just give the goddamn facts you know what i mean right just to have them deny the thing because uh one denies the other okay what time would you uh have any uh any uh should i give you a call about an hour and see what happens give us about two two and a half hours here so we can talk early and the main thing this president is that
As you said earlier, this is, you know, just another blippant battle.
It's nothing for you to... Well, it's nothing we expected, but it's... Don't let this impinge on your day.
I mean, you get some rest there after this summit meeting and so forth.
Well, I don't need the rest.
Well, but you do.
I mean, need to...
But the point is that it certainly is a...
It's good to have all of you working on it, but sometimes, you know, it...
It really does show you the problem we've got with this goddamn press working in conspiracy with the committee and with the prosecutors, isn't it?
Well, I think we have an easier battle going against the irresponsibility on the part of the committee and the prosecutors, although the press battle is a later one.
I'm referring to the prosecutors in that.
I mean, in other words, take on the prosecutors in Irvin.
They're leaking this stuff out.
Right.
But be sure to consider whether or not a gurney or somebody else can... Well, that's the other thing we have to consider, whether, I don't know, maybe get a tower out front on this thing.
well.