On June 3, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at Camp David from 10:48 am to 11:07 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 168-028 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Well, good morning, sir.
Well, I was just, uh, I got, uh, uh, Bazaar, Ziegler, the boys working a little on this, uh, latest Dean thing.
What's your judgment on the thing?
I haven't seen it, Mr. President.
I, uh, I'm up in New York, and we had a, uh, wedding reception that we went to last night, and, uh, rehearsal dinner, rather, and I haven't even gotten the news.
Well, I'll tell you, I just, uh,
The important thing is that it's basically the typical kind of crap.
The New York Times and the Washington Post have a story from the Senate Committee investigators and from the U.S. prosecutor that Dean is claiming that he talked to the president 30 or 40 times between January and April and that the president was aware of some aspects of the cover-up in that period of time.
says he has no documentary evidence, but that he worked to that effect.
In other words, the White House, of course, our people put out a strong rebuke, not to Dean, but to them for doing it.
But, you know, it's really so difficult to handle this sort of a thing, Chuck, due to the fact that, goddammit, you know, the only one that can really answer it is me.
Of course, also, you can't prove the negative.
You've got the situation where someone could say, well,
I told the president this.
Well, the point is, we do have some facts that are of interest.
The first time that Dean ever saw me alone, he did see me alone, but he came in February, this was February the 27th, with Dick Moore.
And from February 27th until about March the 15th, when I had my press conference, the conversations were almost totally about executive privilege, you know.
Yep, that's right.
Do you remember?
We were quite sure it was the day that he put out that order.
That's right.
And John was working on that because he called to get buys by his son.
You remember the thing on that?
That's what that was all about.
It had nothing to do with his other stuff.
So what he, of course, I think is rather desperately trying to do is to pick up, is to sort of make himself the hero of the libs and attempting to expose the president as a liar and all that sort of thing.
But anyway, don't be downhearted about it.
No, don't you, sir.
But I think it makes it all the more imperative that I do the Howard Smith and I'm sure do an exclusive interview with the New York Times.
Are you?
Yeah.
When will you do that?
Tomorrow morning.
I've got to time them so that I don't take the wind out of the sails of one or the other.
But I hope to get them both out on Tuesday or
Yeah, the Senate committee has Sally Harmony as Lydia's secretary.
They're going to start this peeling of the onion.
They're going to start little things one after another.
So I think it's all the more important that those of us who can speak start doing it.
And particularly the Dean thing makes it all the more important.
What John Dean is doing, Mr. President, is an age-old gambit, but he is holding out.
all sorts of wild things in an effort to win himself either immunity or a deal.
And the prosecutors, I know, because we have been working with them very cooperatively, the prosecutors a couple of weeks ago told us they felt he hit them over the barrel.
And the more that he continued to put public pressure on them, the more that he did.
Well, you see, what happened to him, Chuck, was that he expected that that lockbox was going to get it for him.
And then that exploded when he found, you know, and he didn't know, I don't think he knew that that order had ever been carried into effect, you know?
That's right.
Don't you think that was a great disappointment to him?
But he really thought that was going to do it, don't you think?
Yep, I think he thought that would be enough to make everybody jump.
Yeah.
But we knocked that out of the box, so that's that.
Well, today's thing doesn't bother me, Mr. President, because...
Well, they play it big, but the papers do, apparently.
But I just can't be bothered about that.
No, you can't.
But it's really shocking.
And our day will come, though, Chuck, believe me, that time's in the post for them to, not to mention the network, but for them just to, in a totally irresponsible way, to say that here's a guy that they know is asking for immunity.
And they take leaks and so forth.
They say he is prepared to testify that he saw him.
And that the president was aware of something in this period.
Well, not for Christ's sakes.
I mean, suppose I was aware even.
The whole point is that we've indicated awareness as of March 21st in any event.
But all he is talking about is that when.
Well, not only when, but he said that he did.
And there was nothing in January, February.
I know nothing at all.
Well, not only that, but John Dean, of all people to believe, he was John Dean who had foreknowledge of the Watergate, which was until January.
John Dean had foreknowledge of the Watergate.
He's a barn Magruder to perjury.
Sure.
And he never told me that.
That's right.
He promised the defendants clemency.
He never told me that.
That's right.
You know what I mean?
Here was the fellow that was...
And, of course, it worked very closely with Gray and so forth and so on.
Well, all these things, all these things, here was the fellow that was really doing it all, Chuck, as far as the cover-up was concerned.
How the hell was he, how could he, and then why didn't he walk in on the 28th or 29th and say, so why did he wait until the 21st of March?
That's right, to come in and say, look, I think we're in a real spot here, I think that
counts attorneys blackmailing us and so forth.
Well, why didn't he say so earlier?
Yes, sir.
I don't know.
He never said the payments earlier were blackmail or anything or payoff or hushed money or so forth and so on.
He never implied his money.
Well, that's the whole point, Mr. President.
He said the White House was clean.
He kept telling me that.
Sure.
He kept implying that Mitchell was the one that was involved.
You know what I mean?
That was our problem, Chuck.
We went over that with him over and over.
I did.
Exactly.
And I remember you saying to me many times, well, thank God this doesn't extend into the White House.
John Dean was in a
is in a very hypocritical position because he has to, to make his case, to make his bargain for immunity, he's got to put himself in the position where he, he has to try to lay as much off on you as he can.
The problem with doing that is that he was a participant full of knowledge, which he could have imparted to you at any time for 10 months and did not.
And not only did not to you, did not to me, I don't know what he did to,
to anyone else, but...
He didn't to anyone else.
But, my God, there's a man who has put himself in... You talk to him a lot, Chuck.
He never told you any of this stuff, did he?
Oh, my God, just the reverse.
Well, he never... Why are we saying the White House is not involved, and what do we do to help ourselves, and how do we protect, you know... Sure, let's keep it out of here.
Remember, they use the term, let's pull the wagons up around the White House, and all that sort of thing.
That's exactly right.
And every conversation I've had with you...
A couple of times, I got little glimmers of evidence.
And I've already told the U.S. Attorney this, I'd get little things that might indicate a problem.
And I would send them to Dean, and he would tell me, you know, forget it, don't do anything with it.
Was that right?
Yes, sir.
So he really was actively suppressing.
And of course, in hindsight, I realize now that I should have raised more ruckus than I did.
This was, of course, towards the end of last year.
rather major or consuming problem.
Oh, I couldn't pay any attention to all this.
Never.
That's another point that I'd like to make publicly is that I know how consuming it was for you to handle the Vietnam thing in the month of October.
November and December.
November, December.
And January.
And January.
All through those three or four months.
That's right.
You had no way that you could be sitting around having strategy sessions with people and now you cover up the damn wood again.
It's preposterous.
Shit, I do.
Utterly preposterous.
And even to have people express suspicions to you doesn't... Well, they didn't do it.
No, it doesn't do a damn thing.
Well, I'm talking about even in the case of Mitchell.
Huh?
Even in the case of Mitchell.
Oh, yeah.
Some of us who might have said, well, yeah, I know.
We think Mitchell must be involved.
It wasn't him.
He took a very proper position.
He's entitled to his rights as a person.
I just think that the...
The Post and the Times and the networks have been just thoroughly irresponsible in playing up, and this needs to be said, in playing up hearsay and innuendo.
The reason that I think I'll do the Times is that it's a way to cut the Post.
They've been the worst.
By far, by far, by far.
The order of magnitude is ten to one.
They've run with absolutely nothing.
That first story last Monday where they said that you might be called before a grand jury, that was made up.
There wasn't a single quote in that story.
In other words, there were quotes in that story, but no quote to that effect.
In other words, there were quotes to other things.
They just decided that was the day they wanted to blast out a banner headline that you might be, or Tuesday I guess it was, you might be go up before the grand jury, which of course is utterly ridiculous.
But that's the way they have handled it.
I hope to hell we get our day back at them, because they... Yeah, well, we will.
Just lay in the bushes.
One way or another, we have the damn post on the run.
I know, I know, but listen, don't worry.
These things have been flowed, Chuck.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Well, I think the major thing, Mr. President, I think... Why do you think they're running the Dean's stuff right now?
I wonder, possibly, they rather felt they were, we were sort of, you know, we were...
They weren't doing very well last week, Chuck, actually.
Oh, that's right.
I was out doing some fairly important foreign policy business and so forth.
And people were getting a little sick of the hearings.
And I think they thought they needed a little pickup.
What do you think?
Exactly right.
And I think they also felt that they were beginning to be subject to a lot of public criticism for not coming directly to the issues.
Plus the fact that they're on a week to
very explosive.
So they're working on the tidbit theory.
Bring up a little one now, bring up a little one.
It's the steady erosion that goes on.
When they lay this stuff out piece by piece, that's the objection to the urban areas.
That's the objection to the way the reporting has been right from the beginning.
And of course when they run something that's disproven, that denial never catches up.
So they create a cumulative impact.
I think they picked this one right now because they did have a bad week last week.
They had a bad week, yeah, a very bad week.
In my opinion, I think it was... And I don't think this is going to change it, Mr. President.
I think that Dean is not considered that close.
I can honestly say that all the hours that I sat in your office, I never saw Dean come in once.
Hell no.
Well, look, let me... We know we've got the figures on that, and that's what kills them, is that
He saw me before February the 27th.
He saw me only twice, once five minutes when we signed the will, and the one 15th of October, September, when he came in to report on the fact that they had indicted the seven burglars.
That was all.
That was the only time.
We never had another conversation.
I never saw him once.
Right.
Well, of course, you have to keep in mind also that his own credibility has been badly impaired in a number of ways.
Well, you remember Pat Gray said that he lied in one of the FBI interviews.
Yeah.
Which, in fact, he did, but that doesn't go under the fact that the public... Yeah, and then I defended the area member.
Well, he did lie, as a matter of fact.
Yeah.
But it was a damaging shot to the Jack Anderson column, which got very extensive publicity that John Cena had been fired out of his former law firm because of shady practices.
Yeah.
unethical practice.
Most of the press that has been written about Dean is that he's sort of a nice-looking young playboy, immature.
And the point that Ziegler makes, I think, is pretty good.
I don't think that the thing to do is to make Dean, however, a target at this point.
The point being that not because of how he will react, but because
the lips that might seize upon him as their hero.
Oh, God, that's right.
See, they might say, you know, just like they seized on McCord.
That's right.
And they might want to say, no, Dean is the only man, and all this gaggle of his has the courage to tell the truth, and they build him up like hell.
Ron is absolutely right on that.
At this point in time, we don't want to let them build anybody up.
They can't.
That's it.
The bottom line of that is that they can't do it.
You don't think so?
No.
You can't build it up?
Oh, hell no.
I cut them down into pieces.
Evidence that, I mean, it's apparent to me now, from what I know, it wasn't at the time that he was suppressing information.
Oh, hell no.
That's McCord's problem.
They had McCord build up beautifully for a couple of days until my boss came along and did it.
just cut the ground out from under him on his motives.
And that's just what people suspect.
The way to cut Dean down is to cut him down on the fact that he said this in order to get immunity.
He said what, sir?
That he said what he is.
He is making wild charges in order to get immunity.
Oh, sure.
Oh, yeah.
And why did he wait 10 months?
And if the man really wants to see justice done, why doesn't he just come forward and tell his own story?
Stop trying to play games where he
If he really thinks he has something important to say, come say it.
Right.
There are those who are not to, we can't be self-righteous about it, but there are those who are perfectly prepared to lay out the facts.
Who take the consequences.
But they're going to be judged openly.
That's right.
Whatever they are.
That's right.
I don't intend to, when I do leave this week, I really don't intend to take anyone on.
I think it's important, however, that the principal trust be from someone who was in daily contact with you.
To be able to say, I had the kind of a relationship where if the man had known anything, he would have told me.
In fact, quite the contrary was the case.
In any discussions that we ever had, it was perfectly obvious to me that he
He knew nothing of the Watergate advance and knew nothing of the activities that had subsequently been reported.
Absolutely clear.
And once he found, got into it, he was totally, his only interest was in getting to the bottom of it.
That's right.
That's right.
Not covering it after that on the 21st of May.
Not covering it.
And that, well, that can be it.
Well, anyway, I wish you well.
Well, don't worry about this Dean story because he'll,
He is the one fellow who will...
When I say worry about it, we have to fight him every day, you see, because he can't allow the stuff to build up at both the Times and the Post.
I don't read the goddamn things, but Ziegler gives me a real report on it.
They both give it a big play today.
Well, we'll knock that down on the question.
I mean, not knock him, but knock down the motives of that.
I really think, Mr. President, it is a reflection.
You think it might be there?
Yep, I do.
Really do.
Because they're running this one, I don't know, maybe a little early.
I would think they'd save this for a little later, wouldn't you, if they thought they were... Yeah, but I think they needed something.
The thing was beginning to get pretty ridiculous to an awful lot of people.
I know you think maybe only our friends think that way, but that's... You think... Maybe some others.
I was convinced that the person's out to get you.
Boy, they're bored.
And they're interested in other things.
The law enforcement, of course, even taking it at its worst, all Dean is saying is that in the early part of the year, the president was aware of attempts to cover it up.
Well, what the hell?
He's taking it at its worst.
I mean, we know that's not true, but what is the average person going to think of that?
They're going to say, well, yeah, then the whole thing blew up and he fired everybody.
That's the point.
Okay.
We'll give them some help this week.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir.