Conversation 168-030

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Well, yes, sir.

Well, I wanted to see how you were coming along on your first half of your analysis.

Well, we're moving along fine.

The general consensus here is that this doesn't move anything to the position where we were before, and it's not damaging at all.

Well, it's damaging beyond what's really been said.

It's an accusation against the president again, which, you know, sort of the erosion, I suppose, Ron.

Which we can't do much about.

But you are considering Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Colson, so forth and so on.

And Gurney Tower.

Yeah, I know.

But the people that can give it a lie to

I don't know.

As I like to point out, I was saying, well, we didn't see him 40 times.

We saw him 15 times.

We've agreed that we should definitely not.

If we could just find out, though, if somebody got the facts.

Yes, we do.

It was the 27th of February was the first time.

The 28th of February was the first day.

The 28th.

And that was with Dick Warren, right?

With Dick Warren.

And then there were meetings through March where discussions of... Till the 21st.

Till the 21st.

That's right.

And then there were four meetings after the 21st.

Wait a minute.

There was a meeting, two meetings on the 21st, one on the 22nd, one on the 15th of April, one on the 16th of April.

15th and 16th.

That's right.

One on the 22nd, I guess on the 22nd before he, when was that then?

The 22nd was, was that alone or with Haldeman and Haldeman?

March the 22nd was with Dean alone.

Also present part of the time was Haldeman and Haldeman.

Well, that's what I meant.

I think I was rather sure they'd been there part of the time at least, yeah.

And Mitchell part of the time.

Oh, yeah, that was the time that Mitchell had come down, but there again, at that point, they were still discussing how the hell to handle the privilege and all that crap, you know, appearances, getting a story out.

That's right.

Sure.

Where was that, the EOB, the 22nd?

That was in the EOB office, yes, sir.

How many meetings occurred before, between the 28th and...

Oh, well, the number, I guess, is irrelevant.

Between the 28th and the 21st, there were...

Some of them were very short.

11 meetings.

11 meetings, and then four after 15.

Right.

But you had a press conference on March the 2nd, and you had a press conference on the 15th of March.

That's right.

14th, 14th, right.

That was the period of the concentration on executive privilege, and that's what I thought.

I don't know what was that, but we were...

uh the executive privilege thing was on the second end he had the great testimony of the great testimony right good god there wasn't any talk about this other stuff right as i recall at that period you see what i mean that's right that's the irony the whole damn thing well i suppose the whole purpose here is on his part is to build up public uh in other words build up publicly uh sort of a

support for giving him immunity so he can tell the story.

Is that correct?

Well, that's what the Garment's analysis is.

It's probably the best of nothing like.

Well, basically, it's an effort to, part of the effort in his drive for immunity, and to, through the press, which he has not done yet in any sworn testimony, to build his case of not going to prison, really.

Which, of course, relates to the whole amenity question.

I think that's the general assessment of the motive.

But still, he's got a feeling that it's not the time to take him on.

That's right.

At this point, it's not the time to take him on.

Also, everyone agrees you want to take him on until you're ready to knock him out of the box.

That's right.

And also, everyone agrees that we should not quarrel at this point with the 40 versus 20.

the phone calls because that would allow him then to structure any testimony that he may give later around what we have said about those meetings and had it felt that that should be held until a later point.

Sure.

Look, he might also, he may get off the limb on that.

That's right.

You know what I mean?

He may testify that he saw me in January and February when he didn't, you see, except for February 28th.

The thinking at this point is to develop two strong statements.

motive uh to some degree at the process by the process i mean how these stories find themselves into the press and to have a third party uh issue those statements so third parties could be scott goldwater gurney tower those sites that's what we're working on at this time or agnew or agnew could be but agnew is uh

Agnew.

Right.

We had thought of Agnew.

Yeah.

Well, he should be assessed.

Don't overlook that.

Sure.

That's right.

He should not rule that out.

He's a lawyer and so forth and so on.

That may, yeah.

But that's where we are at this time in the assessment.

Now, the curious thing is, I was thinking of Dean's thing on the 21st when he mentioned the whole Bickman business and so forth.

When we met with Mitchell the next day, we didn't even discuss it.

When Mitchell and the whole group of us were meeting.

So even then, he was still playing a very curious game in this damn thing.

Right.

With Mitchell then, I don't know.

Maybe that was his intent, if I can figure out who he was playing with.

Well, there's probably a little of that involved in this, too.

Don't you think so?

Yeah.

Well, that's where we are at this time.

But now, would it be useful, I was thinking if I could come down this afternoon and we can meet with the group, would that be useful?

I don't think so, Mr. President.

I don't think there's any need for that.

No, sir.

Now, don't be concerned about the time off and so forth, because I'm perfectly free to.

It would be useful to send you to sit down with the group and whack it around while we can do it.

But, you know, if there's any facts I can give you or...

Right.

I don't think so.

Let me raise this, and if we feel that way, then we can talk later this afternoon on that.

Then let me ask you, what is the purpose of planning?

When are you planning to meet?

You're going on with your meeting now?

Yes, sir.

Well, I could check with you around maybe, what is it now, 12 o'clock?

It's 12 now.

I'll give you a check around, shall we say, 1.30, 2 o'clock.

That would be perfect.

Yes, sir.

You would know.

Well, of course, the thing is that when you come down to it, Ron, just the main thing, get the facts on our side and know what the hell they are.

Right.

In other words, so that our own people are aware of the fact that there were no meetings until March.

Basically, we know that.

We know that.

It's completely documented.

First meeting on record.

there thank god we have one witness at least we had we had the dick moore there dick moore there were absolutely no discussion of this all that's right only about executive privilege and all that crap that's right that's right so what shows us that's what was on the plate at that time well it's true it's true i suppose that you know i unfortunately don't uh

don't make notes, you know, I mean, or keep a diary, but, and it's a basically, Dean and Ron and his meetings with me has distinguished, and Holden and Hurlingman, every time we sat in a meeting, they always sat and made notes, you know, because it makes for the fun.

He never made a note.

Now, he may, he probably was just relying on his memory on the thing, and it's probably very good, but my point is, I didn't see, so I haven't got any way of knowing what the hell he did discuss with us.

Right.

except my recollection is that it was about other things, or otherwise I'd have started raising hell around the place.

That's right.

I mean, that should be the case, you know.

And so that we, I just want to be sure that our own late May, March, our May 22nd statement is focused properly.

We got there, we put it in until March.

We didn't put it in until March 21st.

In the May 22nd statement, we said...

In March, yes, sir.

That's right.

So that's when I became aware of money being raised.

I was not aware of money being raised until March.

That's right.

Well, now that's correct.

Until the 21st.

No, as I told you, Ron, we didn't.

The 21st was the first time I was made aware by Dean and all of them was there for the last half a year at all.

And the fact that money was being raised for purposes of cover-up.

Well, yeah.

You see my point?

The part that I make is that as far as Hold'em 350 and Combox fundraising, those two things, it is possible.

I didn't know it in February.

I didn't know it in January.

But it is possible that he might have discussed it, say, around the 15th or 16th or 17th.

I don't know.

He just might have raised it, but that I have no recollection of.

But we can live with that, can't we?

Oh, sure.

Yes, I think so.

But we don't want to be, we don't want to be knocked down on the day of the deal that we said we didn't know anything until the 21st of March about any fundraising.

Right.

We're not in that position.

It's possible that we did.

I can assure you it wasn't before that.

Right.

See my point?

Mm-hmm.

Also, the group is aware of the fact that when Dean came to California, I was not present at the meeting.

Right.

They know that, do they?

Yes.

at that time did not even discuss the damn meeting with me.

So people forget we were doing other things at that time.

Let me discuss.

Do you remember, was that when you came in?

Is that when we went over the whole drill of having Miller and the rest set up a scheme where Holloman would go on out and meet the press?

Right.

There was discussion about that to get the whole story out.

Yeah.

Because you were in those meetings, do you remember any discussions of cover-up or anything like that?

None whatsoever.

Well, it seems to me we would have discussed this.

That's, uh, you know, I'll say my point.

That's right.

So, uh, the main thing is we just, uh, we had nothing to hide, Ron.

That's the point.

I don't want to be caught up on any goddamn dates.

Right.

I mean, it doesn't make it as simple as I learned in January, but my point is, I did, you see.

Right.

And as far as Dean is concerned, he didn't disclose a goddamn thing until March.

Mm-hmm.

and not his concern about the real thing until March 21st.

Okay.

Okay, wait.

I think we're moving.

We'll talk very well.

I'll get you a call around 1.30.

You say 2 o'clock?

1.30 or 2?

1.30 and determine whether I want to talk to Al, whether I should sit down and, you know, come down and have a little chat with all of you tonight.

Is Al there yet?

He'll be in in five minutes.

Yeah, yeah.

Poor guy.

Gosh, we're putting a hell of a burden on him.

No, he can take it.

Yeah, he's tough.

He's taken Henry for four years.

He can take you.

But is the group working well together, Bazaar and Len?

Right.

What is their...

I would think of taking Bazaar.

Isn't he outraged by this kind of goddamn conduct, too?

Oh, sure he is.

So is Len.

I know Len has, but Len is a loyalist, basically.

Sure he is, too.

He's a new man.

But how does Brett feel about it as a lawyer?

You know, I mean, it seems to me just unconscionable, this kind of crap.

You know, we got, I mean, the justice, the tax on the president to move the major papers of the country.

Of course, we have to remember they were two of us, two of the opponents in the election.

That's right.

No, everyone feels that way about the process.

It's just making sure that we restrain whatever recommendations we make to you.

to make sure that whatever we do, it is absolutely to our, not only short-term, but long-range advantage.

Yeah, I understand.

The 18th of this month is the day that the committee then can get the, isn't that true?

The 18th of June?

After the immunity period passes, I believe that.

30 days, yeah.

I believe that is the one point that is unique.

Is it certain that he will then appear or not?

I'm not sure.

I'll have to check that.

I don't know if it's certain that he will appear on that date or not.

I don't believe it is.

What I meant is, is it certain that he will take that immunity?

That's the point, I suppose.

Or does he have to?

Does he have no choice?

You see what I'm getting at?

Right.

I'll have to ask Buzzard about that.

Yeah.

So that we know, because the prosecutors have still not made their decision on his immunity, too, you might ask.

All right.

Of course, the way I feel about the damn thing at this point, Ron, is it Christ, whether they give him immunity or not.

I don't think it matters.

It's the one half a dozen others, don't you?

I don't think it matters.

Because he's going to talk you away.

Huh?

It doesn't matter now.

Yeah.

And he's going to get out there, and then you just have that much more of a gut bite.

But I remember what you used to say throughout, that John Dean was discredited, and it would seem that, I remember you said that.

Right, I think everyone here agrees with that.

But the point is that you don't think we can start the discrediting process yet.

No, we talked about that.

If we begin an attack from here or begin to attack him too hard, then people can start putting their arms around him and say, this is our boy, and then you've got to build him up into a symbol.

Now he's basically, in my opinion, but in a larger sense because he's close in, like McCord.

McCord became the darling of the boys and then

Oh, it's destroyed him.

Right.

Now the point is that this fellow, don't you think they're building him up now?

Let me ask you that.

This is one thing I'd like you to consider.

Looking at the press generally, well, let's look at the Post and the Times numbers, are they building Dean up as an honest man?

No, I think... Or are they handling him...

I don't think the Post or Times are building Dean as an honest man.

I think they're somewhat skeptical of him at both the Post and the Times, and I think that's...

to a great extent reflected in the stories.

But, you know, they are not building them up.

And why in the hell would they take the front page of both papers wrong, as you were pointing out, and say that John Dean is prepared to testify that the president was aware of a cover-up in January, February, and March?

That's part of the environment.

That's part of the, you know, objective of not only the people who are leaking it, but

part of the drive on the part of the two newspapers.

But we don't, at this point, I think, gain by attacking the papers.

Oh, I think your motive... Don't attack the papers.

You see, that's a bad hole anyway, because we went through that in a period before, and then they won.

So let's let them, if they prove to be wrong, that there will come a time.

But not the papers.

Let's let them, let's let others take them on.

It's felt here, generally, Fred feels this

that the stories were not leaked by the committee or by the prosecutors, but by Dean's lawyer.

Well, they think so.

I wonder why he thinks that.

I'm curious.

By Dean's lawyer.

Which fits all right.

That it's an effort to get immunity and an effort to clutter things up to the degree that he wouldn't have to go to jail.

But it's her...

It is your view that the story is not that big.

I don't see your point on that.

No, it's a big story, of course, but the denial is running well.

And when I say that, it's not that the story is not big.

It's more that the story does not create an impression any deeper than what we were up against then.

as a result of previous stories.

In other words, the previous stories were indicating that the president was aware, too.

How much did he know and all that?

That's correct.

This, I suppose, gets documentation.

Not documentation, but testimony on it.

It's questionable how much that does.

For example, in some of the stories, like the New York Times, it says Mr. Dean has been openly using the press in his effort for himself, giving personal interviews to news magazines and some newspapers and even appearing on the CBS.

and openly using them.

I wonder why they would say that.

Well, I guess to express some skepticism about his notice.

Well, I'll give you a call.

Okay.

Good luck.