Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate scandal and John W. Dean III

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Hello.

Yes, sir.

How are you getting along in your meeting?

Good.

The fellas are out writing some statements that we're going to get to Scott and at the other side.

I talked to Bob and he said that he and John both had made statements on ABC.

Right.

He thought it certainly would be useful if you'd give John a call.

John was going to try to reach you because he thought John's was in some length and would be very helpful.

Right.

I talked to John.

Oh, you did.

Yeah, right.

We're rolling along fine.

Good.

Incidentally, Holton, Mandel, Bumpers, Wallace, Ray of Iowa, and O'Callaghan of Nevada appeared on one of the news shows today.

Yeah.

Very positive.

Indicated that the people had confidence in the president.

They had confidence in their president.

Yeah.

You know, it was very up.

Yeah.

You know, one thing Bob had told me that was interesting that shows you how...

He lobs his stuff up.

You know, you hadn't told me that he had said something to the effect that telephone calls are recorded and all that sort of stuff.

First of all, my guess is that he would have a very, I don't know, I'm not concerned about calls, you know what I mean?

Right.

If he records a call, he records a call.

Right.

The second point is that

uh he talked about that easter call we made right and uh the inference that i talked about the fact that we were that uh when he said that i was kidding and i said we could raise it we never even discussed that that's right i was there well because you heard the conversation yeah you never mentioned anything about kidding well i never mentioned about even the money no that's right well that's what i meant but this shows you what you're uh what you're up against right although he's uh trying to do that i was a very it was a frankly just a

personal call right and if you remember and i said i know it's a tough time and then he raised the question of how he was going to plead right but he'd like to maybe talk to me about it later on he called you if i recall you said thanks for the call thanks for the call yeah you talk to bob you might tell him that you were there it's good to have a witness now right right

But doesn't that show you, though, what you're up against?

Right.

And we're here and talking about this and getting this thing moving.

Everyone agrees.

Everyone totally agrees that this is not something that we're going to, that we should get bogged down in and answering day-to-day charges that come in this fashion.

Bob, it's not that our rejoinder perhaps is a little too hard, but, you know, as a PR reaction teammate,

I have great confidence in Bob's judgment, but my view is it was just right.

It's playing just right.

I don't think we should get bogged down here.

And as you said earlier, in trying to rebuke these type stories, the way we're going to deal with this

and going on with the type thing that you talked to Haig about this weekend.

Yeah.

That's the way to deal with it.

I think so.

Every time something like this breaks, we have to go through the exercise.

Okay.

We have to sort our minds out.

We have to look at all the options.

One thing that Bob said he was doing himself, and I told him to manage it for you, he said that he is going to write a chronology of everything he knows and everything he thinks I know.

You know what I mean?

I don't want to write one, Ron, because I just don't want to, you know, I just haven't got the time to look it over, and I don't think it would be very useful to you.

No, sir.

I think for him, too, it would be useful, and so he's going to do that and furnish it to you.

Good.

Total chronology, like, for example, setting forth what the president didn't know about the 350, didn't know about the call to combat, you know, and all that.

Right, right, right.

And didn't know about the system.

just to say the whole CIA drill.

At least to follow up on it.

But getting back to this, do you think it would be useful for me to meet with all of you?

No, sir.

I think the most useful thing for you to do is enjoy the day up there, if I could be quite correct.

uh there's no need no sir to for you to get bogged down in this you know the reason i called it to your attention today is that it was on the front page of the paper and i think it's something you should be aware of it's being handled it's being dealt with and i think the way to do this

We're trying to get some outside third parties moving, which is what we're working on.

And I'm very pleased at the governor's comments today.

Which governors were they?

Holton, Mandel, Bumpers, Wallace Ray, and O'Callaghan of Nevada.

And they said what?

Well, they were on television.

Yeah, on Meet the Press or one of those.

I got a report on this.

I didn't see it personally, but they point...

They didn't guess on the president.

No, they said, you know, asked if they thought people still had confidence in the president.

They said, absolutely.

Said the people believe in the president.

The, you know, judicial system is proceeding.

The president has the confidence of the people and is carrying on with the work of the, you know, country.

It was all upbeat, you know.

Well, I think, actually, that you have a situation here where the...

The dean, the dean employee, basically, every weekend, he's got a clever fellow working with him, lobs out another story, you know what I mean?

And it's all part of a deal to try to get him, get himself filled up for the immunity.

That's right.

But at the present time, he's now damn near lobbed out about what he can get, you know what I mean?

That's right.

And the only other thing he can squeal about is that

that I wouldn't have Byer, Haldeman, and Ehrlichman when I wanted him resigned, because he confessed that was a fight.

That's right.

Eh, what the hell.

He could say, I suppose, that I was trying to cover up for Haldeman and Ehrlichman, right?

Which is somewhat true.

Well, he could say anything.

For example, when I wouldn't let them go.

And, uh, the, uh,

the kind of crap that you're going to get.

And that I didn't.

But that statement with regard to immunity, it was one thing in the Easter call which he did mention.

He says, I know how that came about.

In other words, he knows very well that Ehrlichman insisted on that.

And so what's wrong with that?

Not a damn thing.

I mean, I should have made you think you're getting immunity.

I suppose this will rattle around a while this week.

Well, I don't know that this will rattle around too much.

I mean, you know, the fact is that we do have to, as you have often said, hang in tough on this thing.

I think you have men around you who are hanging in tough, and it's that type of

allow ourselves to become consumed with the story that runs here, you know, and I think we'll run.

The way to do it this week, if we move with these, you know, the Paris thing and the other announcements, we may have something on the economy, depending on what we decide tomorrow.

It's that posture.

We'll move right ahead with those.

So we've got the Paris thing this year.

We'll have some announcements.

and see with regard to the staff, which I hope Laird will top them.

Maybe by that time we may have the FBI guy, which will be pretty good, too.

Yes, sir.

So we'll get up, and then I think we'll go to Orlando on Friday.

Yes, sir.

Just go ahead and do the goddamn business in the country, Ron.

That's right.

And at the appropriate time, then, if it ever comes, and we can crack this in one fell swoop.

We'll hit it in the press conference.

Right.

And then move on.

We can tend you to move, is what I mean.

Yeah.

Actually, if you go back to the whole period, Ron, of this, to April 15th, I was just looking over my own calendar here.

God has been busy as hell.

We've been doing an awful lot of stuff.

That's right.

basically sort of breaking through this whole media thing with the fact that we are doing that.

The idea of the country, the administration being paralyzed and sort of in foxholes and so forth is really, basically it's one of those media stories to a certain extent, isn't it?

And the fact that we haven't been out in press conferences is true, but every week we've been doing something where

We haven't missed a week, Ross.

It's not been a period when we've been in a shell hole.

Don't you agree?

I agree.

But nevertheless, we've got to do more.

And we can't, as I said, we have to be alert on all of this.

Charles Wright coming in is going to be a big help.

Yes, sir.

But we can't spend all of our time thinking about this damn thing.

Well, basically, we have to realize that the guy that really can embarrass the president or raise any question on him is Dean.

The guys that can answer that, basically, are all of us, really.

That's right.

And to a less extent, Colt.

And Moore, to a degree.

Moore knows a little.

At the right time.

Yeah, he knows.

That's right.

He wasn't there much.

But he talked to Dean a great deal.

That's right.

And thought of him.

You have talked to him more.

You've kept him in on the drive.

Oh, yeah.

What's his advice?

Anything we're doing?

His point of view is to not commit ourselves too quickly.

See, if we commit ourselves against Dean too quickly, then he can calculate what he says and what he says under oath.

That's right.

Based upon our responses to him.

I agree.

Well served.

committed and don't, uh, uh, because basically, uh, you build also, uh, build him up.

He's already built up considerably, but let's, uh, let's let him continue to swing out there and, uh, I mean, get his, get his whole case up before he starts to, to do it publicly.

Yep.

For the committee.

Okay, well, I, well, I just talked to John and

I haven't talked to Bob yet, but I will.

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate scandal and John W. Dean III

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 3, 1973

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