Nixon phone call with Haig on Watergate and John Dean

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Hello.

Yes, Mr. President.

Well, Albert, you're sorry to break up all your fun days.

No, sir.

I even played some tennis this morning, and we're humming along here in very good shape.

Good.

Well, it's starting to rain here, so I'm going to come back.

We'll be here on 4 o'clock if you need me for something.

Okay, sir.

I'm doing a little organization based on yesterday's thing, so we get everything lined up here.

Good.

And we can move on that as soon as we announce the sale.

And what do you think we'll hear from now?

Well, I'm going to call him tonight, so tongue-in-cheek.

As I say, I'm confident that it never would have gone as far as it did yesterday, and he had any intention of not, I see, doing that.

Well, we'll find out.

Yes, sir.

But I'm really quite confident.

Uh-huh.

And his attitude on the chopper truck back was, well...

and he said he couldn't do it, time to go back and try again.

That's right.

Make the announcement on Wednesday.

Yeah, Ron and the council people are working on some stuff for getting this word out on Watergate, and I'll go over that in a little bit.

Yeah, you know, it's a rather, it's one of those things we've got to expect, Al.

It's, you know, they're going to

try to crap on stuff once a week don't you think so yes and they well they've already started the pattern of late saturday afternoons to get the sunday press but uh i don't think people give a goddamn anymore they're not reading it and uh we shouldn't uh we shouldn't we shouldn't grace it by too much too much white house but that was the feeling that uh that i have a little bit you know you take uh

He could take the theme story, you know, and so forth.

Well, it's full of the usual.

So he saw the president a lot of times, and he said the president was aware of a cover-up in January, February, or March, and so forth.

So what?

What the hell does that prove?

He's a self-serving... Well, the point is, we have not denied that I was aware of a cover-up.

I mean, the point is, it's a matter of a question of a date, Dennis.

Exactly.

We know damn well the date is in March, but nevertheless...

the number of times he sees me of course he says 40 actually it was 20 or whatever it doesn't make any difference i wouldn't argue about that no it's not worth it it's just i wouldn't grace it with that exactly and there's a point about the way i said we could get the money for this and that the fight if i was investigating that i would get that point trying to find out what he was up to but anyway we uh i guess we just have to deal with these stories i think we get to we i mean

I'm the worst offender.

I tend to get more excited about it because I know what they're up to.

It's basically just a pattern to say, well, the president's lying or something like that.

I just don't know how much it gets through, Ron.

What do you think?

I think it's time for advocates to be out, the cabinet and other people taking this stuff on.

Not the White House.

All it does is focus more attention on what people are not paying any attention to anymore anyhow.

Yes, sir.

I read both the stories.

The New York Times was a little more balanced.

The Post was vicious.

But I thought our denial was right.

It was short and very strong.

But I don't think it pays any dividends to get out and give a detailed rebuttal from the White House.

The trouble is, if you start to do that, you're going to have to rebut.

Everybody that goes up there is going to have witness after witness with hearsay and all these things.

That's right, sir, and there's nothing new in this.

This was the initial charge.

It's what we were dealing with all along.

What their banners are doing is playing it like an accordion.

Copy of the charge that the president was aware of a cover-up.

Sure.

There's nothing new in that.

What they put it out is some big new revelation.

Well, Christ, we can't knee-jerk and grace that with...

I suppose what is new is basically that he was 18.

That's the hammer for this one.

Hopefully he's the one that they used before, too.

Well, it's very significant, even in these stories, which are about as tough as many you can deal with, that they make it very clear he hasn't got any evidence.

You know, he's just, this is his, I don't know, telephone conversations.

I doubt that, sir.

We would have seen it in the story, and it would have been out long ago.

They've decided they've got to do this job through public relations.

That's why he doesn't have any written evidence, I'm pretty sure.

No, I don't think so, Dr. Mayer.

All he's got is his word against all of us earlier than the president.

That's pretty tough, isn't it?

Right, sir.

You know, we've got a...

A new line on a very superb SEC guy, probably the best in the country.

Oh, really?

Called him Ralph Saul, who they wanted to have take over the New York Exchange, but he refused.

He's up with the Boston Bank.

He is absolutely the highest regarded man in the business.

Good.

And God damn, he surprised us.

He said he's interested.

Right.

So we're going to press that, and that would be a great appointment.

Sell it.

Yeah, we've done all these jobs.

We've been vacating.

That's right.

You think we can be ready with the FBI the Wednesday?

Oh, yes.

Good.

We're in good shape there.

He could be ready with the FBI and Peterson for sure.

Yes, that's for sure.

He could be ready with Hayes, right?

Yes, and I think in Hope Mill.

He knows he's pressing as hard as he can.

He understands the problem, and I've sort of over-guilded the idea that he should go with the group because it'll be a hell of a story if he goes.

A hell of a story.

It really will.

Well, then we got a good Thursday thing.

The economic package I bounced back today, I haven't seen it yet.

Well, it was a damn nine-page bleeding Schultz memo, and I finally called Simon and I said, God damn it, put this into two pages with an action program that the president can approve or disapprove.

He better be paid to recommend, not to go in there and do another torturous hand-wringing job.

What did Simon say?

He said, I agree with you.

He's very good.

So he's the... What is your...

I've got to really concentrate on that.

When do we have our meeting?

Four o'clock or something?

Yes, sir.

Tomorrow afternoon.

What's your judgment at the moment, Al?

I mean, goddammit, I frankly don't know what to do.

I mean, you know, all the politicians say freeze.

All the economists say don't freeze.

What's your judgment?

The general feeling is to stick with status quo, but with a very strong packaging and merchandising effort.

For example, I think, and some measures which are shorter freeze, but which are a little more strenuous, and which you personally can start talking about.

I think the speech on Friday, for example, in Florida should have a strong economic impact.

background to it.

It may be difficult to do that because of the outdoors, isn't it?

It may, but I think that's the kind of thing we have to do is to bring you into this because actually the economy is in pretty damn good shape.

Well, I can make a radio talk on it.

That's one thing, you know.

Yes, sir.

We could get a hell of a play.

And, you know, if we could get... We don't have to do it, basically, in a live audience.

We

and we get an enormous play out of a radio and we get all the newspapers that way.

That's right.

And if we get a good, really powerful SEC guy that's going to pick up the market and the community up there and give them a whole shot in the arm, there's no question about that.

So the whole Dean thing didn't concern you quite as much as the other stuff?

No, it didn't, sir.

I think people don't give a damn anymore.

And I think they're sick of it.

And I think they read it all as self-serving crap at this point.

No, I don't, firstly.

We just have to learn to ride with these folks.

You've got to ride with them.

You've got to know that if they get two shots at it, they say it now, and then he'll say it again when he goes to the Senate.

So we've just got to learn to ride them through.

That's right, and that's the time to take it on, if at all, anyhow.

Now, Ron was, last night, he and Garber were talking about taking a big offensive.

I don't think so.

I think it would be a mistake.

We've got too much good coming at us.

Well, the point is, about the offensive, is that, Al, is that you don't want to take the offensive until they've shot all their guns.

Exactly.

I just feel myself that you've got to let them run their damn course.

I think it's fine, however, for Haldeman and Ehrlichman to say things.

That's great, don't you think?

Yes, because they may have.

They've started to, you know.

And Colson will say something.

That's all right.

That's fine.

But the White House should not get into it now.

And the more the players do it, the better the whole panorama.

It's just an interlocking mass of confusion and charges and countercharges, but not the president.

Is Renan down there yet?

No, sir.

Oh, good.

Well, I'm glad you had a little tennis and so forth.

I'm glad you're keeping your morale.

I just don't see how you do it.

Oh, God, I'm fine with this kind of crap.

I must say, we're getting a little thicker skin if they'd hit us with this, say, about the 10th of May.

It would have really knocked us over, wouldn't it?

That's right.

Don't you think so?

It would have been very bad, John.

And, you know, if he'd come out with that on top of those Mimcons that he had sent without an answer, we'd have been in bad shape.

So I think we've played it just right.

Actually, we do have an answer out there.

We've said, by God, I was not aware of a cover-up.

That's right.

And I did not, of course, participate in one.

And, you know, we'll get a lot of nitpicking, but now it's the extremists that are doing it.

The good guys have shut up.

What do you think some of them have done?

Yes, sir.

You know, you get a Percy who's popping off and you get one of these left-wing Benz, he'll start screaming.

But the fight's beginning within the committees.

It's now a little partisan line.

We're just in a hell of a lot better shape.

And we can afford to ride these things without getting all exercised each time.

Yeah.

It's calculated.

There's no question.

Are you sure on their part it is?

Yes, sir.

They're trying to hit it every week, keep the story going.

There's also another one off of us, trying to knock us over.

Well, it's just not going to happen now, and I think we're all convinced of that.

We've got to get some of our own people shored up a little bit, and that comes from continuing accomplishments.

That's the best thing.

Well, they've got to think that we're here to stay.

That's the only way to get it.

That's right.

I don't want to get down to it.

The real thing is that if they think they're going to be around, people will say, well, God damn, we better not get out too far.

That's right, isn't it?

And that's why this week's announcements, you know, are just going to be great.

You see, for example, one of the reasons that none of our people would speak, some of our people wouldn't speak up when our enemies were hitting us so hard after April 30th, you know, that bothered God enough, is that

They really thought, seriously, they might knock us over, knock me over.

I know they really, I think a lot of them thought there might be a resignation or impeachment or some damn thing.

Well, they were in a state of shock, and that wasn't discounted by some of them.

But I think that we're well past that.

We've come quite a way since there, don't you think?

Oh, absolutely.

There's no one that hasn't.

In fact, as good a bellwether as you can find is Henry.

Henry's just, he's solid now.

He said, God damn, we've passed.

past it.

He's elated.

It's a deep, deep kind of thing to worry about because it's being in the Times and Twitter.

No, I talked to him today.

People are not paying attention anymore to this stuff.

They don't care about this anymore.

They really don't.

They want to get on with the business.

I talked to Herb last night.

Herb Kline?

Yes.

He's been speaking all over.

He said, God damn it.

The only thing people care about is the economy.

That's the thing we've got to take on.

Watergate is a very minor aspect of it.

Because they've turned that Watergate thing on to a lack of confidence in the economy or uncertainty.

So that's the next order of business.

To take that one on.

That, of course, gets back to what we can do well if we don't

You see, unless you do the more drastic thing, you don't really get satisfied.

Well, I'm not sure we shouldn't do the more drastic thing.

I'll tell you, I'm on the verge of going the other way on that.

Even if it was theologically the wrong thing to do and set us back, we're dealing with today and today's environment.

And we can manage that.

the setback later on, six months from now.

Right.

But right now, we've got, we could take a little boost.

That's right.

Well, that's the tone I think we've got to set tomorrow, and I know Connolly will be thinking that way.

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

Fine, Mr. Pryor.

Nixon phone call with Haig on Watergate and John Dean

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 3, 1973

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