Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 172-004
Date: Friday, June 9, 1972 at 4:55 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Mitchell, John N.
Recording device: Camp David Study Desk
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/172-004
National Archives Catalog: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/417174861 (NAID 417174861)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:01] Well, it looks like your muskie thing sort of played out rather interestingly, didn't it?
[0:07] It did indeed.
[0:08] That's the first thing he's done right in the whole campaign.
[0:11] Do you think some of the people you were talking to got to him?
[0:14] Yes, they did.
[0:15] Because I got a report earlier, you know, from Colson around just before noon, he said that
[0:26] Media were predicting, ABC apparently predicted he was going to leave.
[0:30] Well, not only that, but as of yesterday, he had that position and was going to move that way.
[0:37] That's what I mean.
[0:38] They predicted he was going to endorse that move.
[0:42] leave his candidacy and endorse the other fellow.
[0:44] That's correct, and he left a lot of people flat-footed, too.
[0:47] Why do you think he did it?
[0:48] What were the things that motivated him, in your opinion?
[0:51] Being talked to by certain segments of the party who have really gone on a stop-McGovern operation.
[0:58] They're really scared, aren't they, John?
[0:59] They're scared, and they're, you know, Muskie's not the smartest guy in the world, but he's certainly vain enough to take that little carrot they held out of the deadlock
[1:12] Maybe you're the man.
[1:13] You had to save the party again.
[1:16] Particularly after a fellow has gone down that long road.
[1:19] You remember even Romney had those delusions right to the last.
[1:23] After you've gone through it, you always figure out maybe something will hit me.
[1:26] That's undoubtedly the case.
[1:28] In addition to that, really what...
[1:33] got to him was perhaps not the people we've been talking to so much, but they're talking to some of his people out in the field, particularly that Illinois delegation.
[1:42] Oh, yeah, they're his delegates.
[1:45] They're his delegates, and they're pretty strong, and they, of course, threw in some names like Bailey and so forth and so on.
[1:54] Turned the guy right around, apparently, in the middle of the night.
[1:58] His statement was, it seemed to me,
[2:01] very good from the standpoint of making the point that needs to be made that he felt that McGovern was extreme, don't you think?
[2:07] Yeah.
[2:09] That was factored into it as one of the things that he could do to help the cause.
[2:14] He's been on the other side of that.
[2:16] Yeah, as a matter of fact, I'd say, who the hell is calling the kettle black, you know?
[2:23] But here he is telling McGovern, now look here, you're too liberal.
[2:27] I know, but this is part of the stop strategy.
[2:32] I mean, they're all going to say that, huh?
[2:34] Yeah, very much so.
[2:36] Well, I suppose the net result of it, though, John, is that McGovern will move over and clean himself up, huh?
[2:42] Well, he will obviously try, and I think...
[2:48] The media will try to help him, of course.
[2:49] The media will try to help him, but the more he tries to move in that direction, the more between now and the convention, if it's still viable, and I think it will be, that they're going to have to repeat and reiterate.
[3:01] So this is just great.
[3:04] Repeat and reiterate.
[3:05] The fact that he has these extreme positions and he can't be getting off them.
[3:11] So this is just fine.
[3:14] It means that we don't have to do it.
[3:17] Yeah, this is much better.
[3:21] What do you think this must make Kennedy thinking about at the moment?
[3:29] He probably would be delighted in this because it will keep his options open.
[3:36] The quicker and faster McGovern got to the point of nomination, of course, his options were being closed out.
[3:43] That's right.
[3:45] Except I haven't seen any indications or even have heard any rumblings that he's moving overtly, and I don't know whether or not he can be effective moving covertly.
[3:57] Yeah.
[3:58] The question that he's now going to probably have come up against him is the demand of the McGovern people that he endorse him.
[4:05] Don't you think so?
[4:06] Yes, yes.
[4:08] If they get to the point where they think that they can't make it without him, they're going to push awful hard on that.
[4:15] Yeah, yeah.
[4:17] Because that would make the difference for the uncommitted.
[4:19] Mm-hmm.
[4:21] Yes, it would, but of course it also puts Kennedy in a hell of a spot.
[4:27] He's either got to indicate that he's still interested or else he's got to back this group that is pushing McGovern, and of course they're his constituency.
[4:37] They sure are.
[4:38] They sure are.
[4:41] But it's a lovely party.
[4:42] It changes by the hour.
[4:44] Another interesting thing that's
[4:49] Scott McGovern movement, unfortunately George Meany is over in Europe, but we've got some people calling him.
[4:58] He's probably ready to say something, but he's not here.
[5:01] He should be.
[5:04] Because he can't stand the fellow.
[5:07] That's correct, and he's sort of been avoiding the—invading the issue, but all
[5:15] His support, his Meany supporters in some of these movements and political cohorts outside of it are pushing on Meany to join this stop McGovern thing.
[5:30] You know, if they'd have started this a week ago, Humphrey would have beaten him in California.
[5:36] Yep.
[5:36] And that would have stopped him.
[5:38] Yes, it would.
[5:40] But now, I think it's too late.
[5:43] Don't you?
[5:43] Well, it probably is.
[5:46] I would agree with that.
[5:46] I think he'll get the nomination.
[5:48] But the better thing is, from our point of view, he's going to get cut up in the process, and the party's going to get cut up.
[5:54] Yeah.
[5:58] I suppose the way he'll try to heal himself is to talk to some of these people and then have a nice, clean platform.
[6:05] Would that be your guess?
[6:07] Oh, he's going to try.
[6:08] Sure he's going to try.
[6:09] But we've got to keep him hanging right on that other... That's it.
[6:13] And, you know, Muskie took a hell of a step today in saying what he did about this fellow.
[6:19] You mean in saying he had... That he was taking extreme positions.
[6:25] Yeah.
[6:25] Yeah.
[6:26] God, coming from Muskie, I almost...
[6:28] I couldn't believe it.
[6:29] Quite a step.
[6:30] So, of course, that was a very interesting poll this morning, too, that
[6:38] the Gallup.
[6:50] When it shows that among Democrats, he's only 25% right now.
[6:54] That's correct.
[6:56] And that Wallace leads them.
[6:57] Wallace leads them among independents.
[6:59] Fascinating.
[7:02] You begin to wonder about these polls at times, too.
[7:06] Even the ones that we don't control.
[7:07] Listen, let me tell you, I don't believe a damn one of them.
[7:10] Do you?
[7:11] No, frankly.
[7:13] Because the only ones to believe are your own, that you take to yourself.
[7:18] Then you can, you know, worry about the...
[7:22] Excuse me.
[7:25] Well, even those, I think sometimes things move so fast that you have to put your judgment on top of it.
[7:32] You bet your life, because they can get out of date.
[7:35] That's very true.
[7:36] Well, anyway, it's quite a week.
[7:38] Well, it's not going to be the last one.
[7:41] These movements will be... We've got how many weeks?
[7:46] Three weeks?
[7:47] Four weeks before the convention?
[7:49] Four weeks.
[7:51] And they'll be exciting weeks, I assure you.
[7:54] And if we can just keep building this fire and keep enlisting more people, which we are... To the extent, John, that you can...
[8:05] Really sign them up.
[8:06] That's what really counts, of course.
[8:07] I mean, now, if you can get some... As I said in that memorandum to you, that keeping Connolly's point, that the door is open, you know, and that we don't let our Republicans keep these new Democrats.
[8:22] Oh, don't worry about that.
[8:24] I know that.
[8:24] Don't worry about that.
[8:25] The problem, the way you'd have a problem like that is in a state like Texas, of course.
[8:29] Well, you know what I did in Texas, don't you?
[8:32] I got Eric Johnson to head the committee there.
[8:34] The best man you could have.
[8:35] And, of course, he can bring them all in, and, of course, there'll be more Democrats than Republicans.
[8:40] Right.
[8:40] We've kept that situation open down there so that we can move in that direction at the right time.
[8:46] Not only there, but most of the South.
[8:48] Georgia.
[8:49] Yeah, things like that.
[8:50] And then, of course,
[8:52] Another real problem area like that is California where we have to, that's virtually necessary to have a democratic organization there.
[9:00] Well, we've got some of them moving already, and I'm going to be out there a week from now.
[9:06] Right.
[9:07] I'm meeting with some of them, by the way.
[9:09] The Democrats?
[9:09] The Democrats, yeah.
[9:11] There, I think having a, they'll argue about it, but having a, I think both nationally and in states.
[9:18] Yep.
[9:19] the Democrats for Nixon deal is a good one, or your, of course, another line is to just make it Californians, avoid the Republicans, but the Democrats are the independents.
[9:33] As you know, we don't use the word Republicans.
[9:35] Yeah, I know that.
[9:36] I know, but I meant thinking of things to hang statements on.
[9:39] Well, as you mentioned the other day, there's a lot of people who don't want to get in bed with the,
[9:46] Republicans or even the independents, they'd like to stay as Democrats in functions as Democrats for Richard Nixon, and we would like that vehicle.
[9:53] I suppose it's got that.
[9:57] It'll be a hot time because, well, you know, really, when you consider this fellow governor, as I was saying earlier today, you know, they ought to be worried about him because with a muskie, despite what he said, and with a Humphrey,
[10:13] I mean, while we wouldn't think much of having them in the office, they are both considered to be rather reasonable men.
[10:21] That's true.
[10:22] You know, that they're sort of, Hubert is happy and Big Ed is a little bit slow, but he's not a nut.
[10:27] But people, I think, consider this fellow to be a damn fanatic.
[10:31] Don't you think so?
[10:31] Not only that, but look at the people around him.
[10:35] How would you like John Kenneth Galbraith running your economy?
[10:39] Which will probably be the case.
[10:41] Yeah.
[10:43] And Ho Chi Minh's grandson, probably, is for Australia State.
[10:50] That's what is beginning to frighten people.
[10:54] You know what might be interesting is to have show up at the next McGovern rally just some veteran with a white flag.
[11:04] Just a veteran, not a Republican.
[11:07] Remember, Mel, that Laird statement that if you bought that, we'd better buy some white flags.
[11:12] Yeah, that's the other billion dollars to add to the budget.
[11:17] We have a Corps that takes care of those things.
[11:20] It just might be just a white flag.
[11:24] He says, I'm the local VFW man.
[11:29] As a matter of fact, I think we can get the real thing in the VFW and the Legion to do that.
[11:37] That's what I mean.
[11:38] I mean the real thing.
[11:39] Sure.
[11:40] Because they're all with us on that issue.
[11:41] Yep.
[11:43] Very good thought.
[11:44] Well, have some thought.
[11:47] I have your ambassador to NATO here to say hello to you.
[11:51] Oh, well, if you're my ambassador.
[11:53] I will indeed.
[11:55] Okay.
[11:55] And if you've got any more bright ideas like that, I'd like to have them.
[11:58] All right.
[12:00] Thanks.