On June 9, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:44 pm to 3:20 pm. The Camp David Study Desk taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 172-002 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Yeah.
Hello.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
Well, you had lunch with Scammon today, huh?
Yes, I did.
That's always a very stimulating experience.
He must be quite interested in what's happening, isn't he?
He's fascinated by it, and he's... Is he part of the clean-up McGovern-Clack?
No, he's part of the get-rid-of-McGovern-Clack, yes.
Does he think he can be cleaned up?
He thinks that McGovern is in an untenable position in terms of trying to clean himself up.
He said if he tries to clean himself up, he is going to turn out to be just any old politician to people.
And he's been so self-righteous and so moral about his purity, ideological purity and his
his great arrow business.
But on the other hand, as distinguished, you see, when a right-winger does that, he can't get away from it because the right will not be able to, you know, you've got to rather lose with principle.
But when a left-winger does it, he does get away with it because the left is interested in power.
And how do you analyze that?
Well, that's true.
There is a distinction.
But Scammon's point is that McGovern will lose either way, that he's absolutely stuck on the issues.
And
And if he tries to move, that he will lose his straight arrow image.
And you're right about the hard left and the hard right looking differently at the candidates in the middle.
McGovern, you see in that...
very revealing interview with the New York Times made that point, that his people are idealistic, but they also didn't want to do all this work for nothing.
Well, the Goldwater people would never say that.
That's right.
Never.
That's true.
That's the difference between the right and the left, which you ought to get a few columnists to write.
That's a good point, and we should get that one out.
The other difference, of course, is that McGovern always has one overriding issue, that the left will forgive him, according to Scam, and the left will forgive him anything.
Providing he is all out for quitting Vietnam no matter what.
And Scanlon feels that that's the one issue that he can always keep the left glued together with.
I see.
Which is an interesting point.
But he thinks he's in a very, very difficult spot.
He thinks that the forces in the Democratic Party are now really organizing against him.
That he does not have...
Does he think that Vietnam is, at this point, a plus issue for McGovern?
No, he thinks it's a plus issue for you.
Then why does he think it's an overriding... Well, it's an overriding issue to keep the Democrats together, but yet not a plus issue.
That's right.
Yeah, he thinks it's the one thing McGovern has that will permit him to move towards the Senate.
I see.
Uh-huh.
And that he can also...
Provided he doesn't give on that.
That's right.
Providing if he gives on that, he's all finished.
But that...
That is such a cardinal prime issue to the left and to all of his money people, he said, if you read that list of big contributors that was in the story last night.
Who are they?
I didn't see it.
Oh, it's quite an interesting list.
They're all the Henrys, the Willans, Stuart Mott, Pavletsky, the chairman of the Board of Xerox, Kimmelman.
He's almost a 100% Jew list.
I'll be damned.
Which Scammon made quite a point out of.
Scammon advises us, he said, take that article, it's called the Woonsocket Club, because Woonsocket is the hometown of George McGovern's wife, and you have to pay $25,000 to be admitted, and you get a special key, and you get invited to special things.
He said, take just that one article.
He said, and circulate it all over the country, because he said, that makes all of McGovern's talk about tax reform, and the little guy...
and just blows it all out the window.
He said, when you let middle America see that these rich Jews have to pay $25,000 to get into McGovern's inner circle, he said, that just will kill them.
That's absolutely devastating.
He said, get that article and just
black at the country.
It sure shows where our Jewish friends are, though, doesn't it?
I keep trying to tell him, Mitchell, there's no hay to be harvested there, but he doesn't agree.
No, and I don't agree on that either, Mr. President.
Scammon doesn't.
Scammon said it's been fascinating the way the Beverly Hills Jewish precincts went 10 to 1 from a government.
The very rich
very idealistic professionally liberal jews are from the government the rank and file however jews the middle class to whom israel is a very very big issue and who have become increasingly conservative he scam and believes you will gain enormously in that area and that humphrey did well and they will not buy the government they don't trust them they consider him
Scammon also gave me another very, I thought, a very good line.
He said, the thing you want to talk about with McGovern is that he is, deep in his heart, an honest man of conviction, but he's an isolationist.
He's a genuine isolationist in the tradition of Nye and Burdick and La Follette and all the others from that part of the country.
He's a new, you might even say, the new isolationism.
I mean, the isolation, surrender, defeat, and U.S. be second.
Yep.
He thinks he's got real problems on that issue with the Jews, and he thinks that with the rank-and-file Jews, not with the professional...
But he said the Beverly Hills Jews did go 10 to 1 for McGovern.
10 to 1.
But then he said if you go into the lower levels... Boyle Heights.
Yeah, you get down into the middle class Jews, and he said they were 2 to 1 for Humphrey, and he said they'll be 50-50 for Nixon.
Very interesting.
He's got an interesting thesis on the California election.
He thinks the fuel poll was absolutely right.
Oh, he does?
Yes, sir.
And, of course, Dick, you have to remember, is a very conservative Democrat, increasingly conservative.
Yeah, the more he sees it and governs it.
And the more he spends time with us, the more conservative he's getting.
He volunteered today to come in and be an informal consultant, and I had George Shultz join us for lunch because I wanted George to listen to his views on busing.
Yeah.
Because he's as intellectual as George is.
Sure.
But he's volunteered to help us.
But you have to remember that he, as conservative a Democrat as he is, he takes the point of view that you're going to make, even discounting his conservatism, that you're going to make enormous gains this year with traditional Democratic blocs if the economy...
just stays the way it is or if it's just neutralized as an issue he he feels that the catholic vote is going to swing he feels the middle class jewish vote is going to swing he feels that the ethnic vote is moving he gave quite an interesting analysis of it and he's he thinks we're in very very good condition at the moment on the uh field thing he uh he went through the whole analysis with field and he he recognizes field the left winger but he said
He said Thiel was right on target.
He said Humphrey, if he had had another week, would have won California.
He said the issues were coming through to people.
His interview showed that.
He's read the Yankelovich data, which was the second series of which was in the New York Times this morning.
And he said that he thinks Yankelovich is right on.
And he believes that Muskie was, I mean that McGovern was indeed somewhere between 15 and 20 points ahead of the week early.
God, that's a hell of a shift.
Well, he thinks that people suddenly realized.
They got scared.
And he believes that this is going to come through.
And he thinks that the Gallup poll today, he believes, by the way, the Gallup poll today is the reason that Muskie changed his mind.
Muskie last night had decided to endorse McGovern.
Do you really know that?
ABC said it, but did you know it?
Well, I know it only in this respect.
Lou Harris called me last night and he said, Chuck, I have a
absolutely flat out, he said.
This was about 8 o'clock.
And Lew has never missed one of these.
Yeah, I know.
He's got his own lines.
He's got his own lines into the Democratic Party.
And he said, it's definite.
Muskie's going for McCammon.
And Scammon said that he had gotten it last night from Wattenberg, that it was definite.
Wattenberg's with Humphrey, isn't he?
Wattenberg is with Jackson full-time, but he's now trying to help stop McGovern's drive.
I see.
All right, now, then what happened?
And then he thinks he read the Gallup poll this morning.
Another Gallup poll this morning was what?
Gallup poll this morning, which Scammon thinks was the most significant poll that Gallup has taken since 1968, says that of all Democrats and Independents, when you combine them,
The first choice for the Democratic nomination is George Wallace.
Jesus.
Isn't that incredible?
Among Democrats alone, it is Wallace 26, McGovern 25, Humphrey 26.
Among independents, it is Humphrey 11, McGovern 25, Wallace 36.
Independents?
Yes, sir.
Oh, I can't believe that.
I know.
Who are the independents?
I wonder.
Who are they?
Well, it's not, you know.
Wallace 36?
Isn't that extraordinary?
Well, that tells us something, doesn't it?
It sure does.
And he thinks this is what made... You think that's what scared Muskie?
Well, he thinks that Muskie figured that he had to get on the bandwagon last night, but then come today, when he realized that... You look at a poll like that, and you realize that...
He doesn't have the support of the rank and file in the party.
That's correct.
That all of a sudden he decided he'd better get off.
In fact, what he did, he lectured McGovern.
I got your report.
That was fascinating.
How is the press going to play it?
You know, I also, Bob had read me the Godfrey Sperling piece on how the press was really having a love affair with McGovern.
Which is exactly what Clausen had picked up from John Lindsay, who doesn't like McGovern.
Well, that certainly ought to be blasted, don't you think it can be?
Oh, I think it will.
You mean the...
The love affair between the two.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, I think...
I mean, the press has got to be really discredited there.
We'll have some fun with that one.
Yeah, with using their own words.
But anyway, how do you think they're going to play this?
How are the wires playing that musky speech?
The wires are playing it just exactly the way...
So far, just exactly the way I analyzed it, that he was lecturing him.
And...
refused to throw in his support because he didn't think that he could unify the party.
And no man can deliver a united party.
McGovern's got to unite himself.
As I look at these wires, there's nothing but...
In other words, he's telling McGovern, look, you've got to come to me, I won't come to you.
Precisely.
That's a good line.
That's exactly it.
What's the line I would take if I were in his position?
What's he got to lose?
Well, he's got nothing to lose.
I think Mitchell and I talked about this this morning.
Unless McGovern can get it without him, that's what he's got to lose, I suppose.
That is what he's got to lose, but then his theory is apparently that McGovern can't be elected president.
He can go down the tube.
Sure.
So what?
It doesn't make any difference to him.
Back him in heaven.
Does Scammon really think the Democrats are worried, then?
Oh, he thinks they're in a state of total disarray, and they're demoralized, and they don't quite know how to stop this guy, and they're scared to death of him, and the governors, to a man, are worried about him and worried about the impact he'll have in their state.
The only place they're not worried is in Minnesota or in Wisconsin.
Yeah.
And every place else in the country that Dick says that the traditional rank-and-file Democrats are very, very concerned.
Dick says that, of course, and Dick's a realist, he said, you know, you fellows, he said, I've asked about this election, and I always say that it's up for grabs, because he said any election's up for grabs.
That's right.
Especially, he said, the remarkable phenomenon of Richard Nixon is, as I said on the Today Show, that he was a minority president, and that he is a member of a minority party, and yet,
three-and-a-half years into his term in office.
He is much stronger today than he was when he was elected.
Now, that has to say that he's been doing some things, notwithstanding the war and some tough breaks on the economy, he's been doing some things.
He has to have been doing a lot of things right.
And he said, you fellows are going to win it if you don't lose it for yourselves, which is sort of a colorful way of telling us to stay hard on the social issue and don't be...
he really is one of the ablest guys I know.
Oh, I could tell when I met him.
The thing is, he's got the toughness of a labor leader and the brilliance of an intellectual.
Yes, and he can talk on any level and he's quick and he's got a
real feel for it he he just goes out into the country and talks to the folks well what does he think will happen does he think uh does he does he seriously think mcgovern could be stopped now no he thinks mcgovern will be nominated and that the democratic party will be in a shambles that labor but now wait wait a minute but he doesn't think he'll be nominated for the convention uh does he think that the uh he then what i'm getting at does muskie's move today
keep the race open to the convention in your opinion or not well i didn't really get into that but dick in my opinion it keeps it open only probably until or unless somebody else caves in other words my government right now can look at a hard 1300 votes and uh hard 13 or about 12 50 is it well anyways it depends on which couch you want to take he's got say 915 votes right now so that he
If he picks up 200 in New York and the various other state conventions and a few places where his people have infiltrated, let's say 1,250.
He's really only 250 votes shy at the most.
And almost any kind of a break could put him over.
So I think that today's move by Muskie gives impetus to the Stop McGovern campaign, and they'll work on it.
And the
From now on, he will have to fight for every delegate because he'll be fighting the combined.
I wonder if Meany will say anything before the convention.
Well, he may, Mr. President.
He's very, very worked up over the situation.
And he just might say something.
Now, he doesn't get back here, of course, until a week from Saturday.
I see.
That could have some effect.
But I think when he comes back and finds out what situation that the party is in...
He may.
If he thinks he can slow him down, all of his people are talking.
You know, every one of the AFL-CIO division heads are out speaking, and speaking pretty tough ANM and government stuff.
Barkin went out there to California in the closing days of the campaign, and according to Lovestone, Barkin has taken complete credit for holding Humphrey up and providing the money and the support.
Jay Lovestone did something for me today that he's never done.
He agreed to talk to some press people off the record and to tell them that in George Meany's opinion, in George Meany's view, that Labour will never support George McGovern.
Lovestone's doing it off the record, but he'll be quoted on background.
But he's never been able to shake loose long enough to do that.
One thing about this, this story will bounce around for a while because it's not because the press wants it, because it's the big news story in town.
In other words, it's no big story to have McGovern just go in like Flynn.
No.
Now the Stop McGovern movement, that'll go for a couple of weeks, I think.
Well, what you've got is now some suspense in it that would have been gone had Muskie made his...
If Muskie had thrown his support tent today, there would be no suspense left in the nomination at all.
Of course, to a certain extent, do we want suspense or not?
Yes, I think so, Mr. President.
I think because it'll get McGovern's point of view out.
Yeah, debating it, debating it.
They'll have to be speculating on is he coming far enough in to get the party behind him?
Can he get party unity?
Is he shifting his position?
I mean, the more speculation of that, the more people read that he's off on that path.
or from that tech.
You know, Scammon made an interesting point at lunch.
He said this Democratic governor of Nevada, O'Callaghan, he knows him quite well, wounded war veteran and decent guy and moderate Democrat.
He said he just won't even use McGovern's name.
He just goes blind over the amnesty issue.
And he said it's just violent on the amnesty issue.
Now, he said there's no way that O'Callaghan will support McGovern.
He said, I don't care.
He said,
If it means O'Callaghan losing his governorship, he just will not support him.
He said, you're going to find people like that all over the place who will come from unexpected places and for unexpected reasons that you're going to be able to pick up and start bringing them in.
And he said, I hope you've got a very active Democrat for Nixon operation going, because he said, there'll be a lot of them who will come over.
He said, even my partner, Wattenberg, he said, he's not going to go with McGovern.
You know, that poll is significant, Chuck.
That is a very significant poll, because it shows that despite his primary wins, he still is only a fourth of his own party.
That's correct.
I don't believe a fellow who is a fourth of his own party.
I doubt if he can be nominated.
I don't know.
I may be wrong about this, but...
I don't see how they can...
I agree, but you know, from 1250 to 1500 is quite a leap unless you, well, I don't know, maybe you're right.
There are a lot of uncommitteds and others.
They'll work on them hard now, and they've got some real pros.
They do, and you've got to remember that they're damn right they've got real pros.
You've got to remember also, Mr. President, that after the first ballot,
There'll be a lot of Wallace votes that are cast because the people are forced to cast for Wallace.
Oh, yeah.
He didn't pick him, huh?
A lot of them he didn't pick.
Uh-oh.
That'll do it.
Yeah.
I think we will find that in that second ballot, if he doesn't get it on the first, that he will pick up a very considerable amount of strength.
Yeah.
But this Gallup poll is very, very significant.
The combined total for Wallace of all Democrats and independents
Is what?
31%.
And what's the others?
And then if you combine the others, let's see, McGovern gets 26% and Humphrey 19%.
Now what, look at the Democrats alone.
Democrats alone, it is Humphrey 26%, McGovern 25%, Wallace 26%.
Independence, it's Humphrey 11%.
He does very badly.
McGovern 25% exactly is the same as the Democrats.
And Wallace, 36.
I'd like to know, if we could find out from the Gallup organization, who are the independents?
Is there any way we can find out?
Yes, sir.
I'd just like to know if it's a matter of interest.
That's not a private matter.
No, they'll give us that.
Are independents, are they ethnics?
You know what I mean?
It's a very interesting thing here.
Fascinating thing.
There are more independents than there are Republicans, you know, in the country, according to Gail.
Republicans are about 24, or independents around 30, Democrats around 45.
That's right.
Isn't that right?
That's exactly the break.
31 to 32 and 24 to 26, in that range.
I can find out the breakdown.
He shows here a total of 661 Democrats and 489 Democrats.
I meant what kinds of people.
That's what I really wonder about.
We've got to find out how we target in on those people.
Because obviously the thing that's striking to me is that so many say they're for Wallace.
That's right.
I wonder who they are.
I wonder if a lot of them aren't Southerners.
I wonder if more of those independents are loaded into the South.
I don't know.
I thought they were all in the North.
Oh, no, they'd be a lot in the South, Mr. President.
Maybe so.
Now, if Gallup does it the way he normally does, it'll be an across-the-board demographic distribution.
But you probably will find it in the South.
A very high percentage of the independents.
In the South, the independents were all for Wallace, I would say.
I would imagine that'll be, or a very large percentage of them will be.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there are, of course, a lot of states where they're... That might turn the national average over, but that's a tremendous thing to have 36% for Wallace.
Those are votes we're going to get.
That's right.
I mean, when I see we're going to get them, we're going to get two to one.
Better than 2 to 1, really, this year, I think.
Particularly when we get the issue loaded down.
Well, that's right.
If you really start nailing the issues that Wallace has done well, I'm the only one that a government can hurt us on as tax reform.
He can demagogue that issue a bit.
The lifeboat prices, food prices, things like that.
Well, that'll be back with us, according to Ehrlichman, this summer.
Well, we're doing some very hard work on that, too.
I know.
Meat imports, we're going to kick that up.
and we'll just jawbone meat import and that sort of thing.
Well, I talked to Schultz today.
As soon as we change the meat imports, which I think we should do, and John has a paper for you on that, as soon as we do that, I've persuaded Schultz that he should call in all the retailers and say, now look, fellas, we are taking the quotas off, and that is dangerous for us in some of the cattle states, but we're doing it because we're going to keep those prices down on you bastards.
It's better to do your practice.
That's right.
And you keep the prices down, because if they go up now, it's not the fault of the cattlemen.
It's your fault.
That's right.
That's right.
And Schultz said he would do that within the next two or three weeks after we announced the import decision.
So I think the, and I'll give, by the way, it wasn't in your option paper, but I've persuaded the cattlemen to agree to let us lift the import.
They will not fight it.
But they should.
They're doing so well.
They're not going to fight it.
They've agreed that as long as we agree after the election, we'll
program and being of course which is all they care about but we've got to otherwise they realize that their choice they're going to get a mcgovern and he'll sink them well they'll confiscate everything that they own i talked to their president yesterday and i said look we we want to lift the quotas for the rest of this year and he said well i've known him for four years and he said chuck if you tell me that's important to realize the president will support you as long as we get him back after the election because we're scared of death of the government so now that and he said even our democrats are
But I think that's the one issue that we have to look at.
The only issue, Mr. President, that I can see that I'm really worried about, that we may have to be prepared to do some very hard things just to not let that damn thing start creeping up.
Because Scammon made this point.
He said it's not the CPI.
He said the House wife doesn't.
She comes home on Friday night, and she spent $3 more than her budget, and she doesn't know how to tell her husband, and so they sit around the kitchen table and bitch at high food prices.
And he said it's irrational, but he said this is the one volatile issue.
He, by the way, subscribes to the Robinson theory, the Claude Robinson theory, that 90 or 95 percent have made up their minds.
By May, they may not know they've made up their minds, but
They're sort of leaning pretty hard.
And he said they are subconsciously, they've made up their minds.
And he feels that even the media doesn't change that.
How did he feel, or did you get into it, about the general effect of the two summits, the combination of the two, or did you get into that?
We did.
And Dick asked me off the record, he said, how do you see the campaign?
I said, well, we're going to go very hard on the president being the great peacemaker and
Dick said, that's your suit.
He said, my book says that elections aren't decided that way, but he said, that's the way I would run the campaign.
And he said, then on a lower level, just hit away at, don't get, he said, don't you guys do it, get other people to do it, but hit away at McGovern on his weaknesses.
But play the foreign policy side hard, because the president's image is tremendously strong in that area.
No, he thinks we're, he thinks that we're just doing magnificently well on that issue.
And of course, Dick is a hawk.
And he feels quite strongly that we should make the point about the isolationism of government.
He thinks it will scare people.
And use the phrase, he said, in his heart.
In his heart, he's an isolationist.
And he said you'll scare a hell of a lot of thoughtful people away from him with that.
He, of course, he also thinks the fundraising thing of the government is a big point of vulnerability.
That's a good point.
I would say in his heart, he's an isolationist.
In his heart, he's a socialist.
That's right.
I'd use that, too.
In his heart, he's an isolationist.
In his heart, he's a socialist.
An honest one?
A sincere one or a dedicated one?
A dedicated one, rather than, I think honest gives him too much and sincere gives him too much.
But I said he's just a dedicated socialist.
He's a believing, he's a true believer.
Well, I must say the Muskie thing was a surprise to me because after talking to you last night and reading the papers this morning and hearing about the ABC broadcast, I just thought it was a foregone conclusion.
Something happened there.
Mitchell had told me that there were some lines in there because Mitchell said that some of the labor guys were hitting Muskie very, very hard.
Oh, yes, and Lovestone told me that.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, Mitchell and I made some calls yesterday afternoon to get some friends who would put some pressure on him.
I don't know whether...
whether it did any good, but there's something to it.
Scammon may be right.
He may have read that poll this morning and said, Jesus, this guy's never going to be president.
Why get on his bandwagon?
I wonder if he thinks, too, that by waiting around that lightning still might strike him, you know.
Well, I'm sure that's in there.
I'm sure that he feels that he could be the...
I think that he certainly can't believe that Humphrey could get it.
So they've got to come to him.
But now what does this do with Teddy?
That's the other concern we have to have.
Does this mean that the stop McGovern thing may end with Teddy sweeping in to arrest the Democratic Party?
If they stop him, that's right.
They're going to really put the pressure on Teddy, aren't they?
Yeah, this would put enormous pressures on Teddy.
It's interesting, Mr. President, yesterday Lou Harris told me that Muskie was getting out and Noel Cook told me that some of the people on the Hill were
telling him without any question, scamming, that he got it from Wattenberg.
So I'm sure he was going to do it.
And I'm sure he changed his mind.
I'm positive that he was ready to just say, oh, to hell with it, and get on the bandwagon and hope for something.
But I'm sure that it was turned around.
And maybe that Yankelovich thing in the New York Times this morning, that was absolutely devastating.
40% of McGovern's voters are going to vote for you in the fall.
I mean, it was Humphrey's voters.
That was a...
very, very significant defection of Democrats.
In fact, if Yankelovich's figures today are correct, as Gammon pointed out, we're way ahead in California.
And as I say, Dick happens to believe that Yankelovich is correct and that Field was about right.
which I didn't do anything to disabuse Dick of because Dick goes on television all the time.
NBC has a contract with him, and he gives speeches, and I'd like people to know that.
I mean, I'd rather have the line coming out that McGovern's extremism was exposed in California, and that's what caused the shift.
Don Rogers continues to report to me every day on labor people who are calling and coming with us now that they see the McGovern thing.
building we just picked up, and it's in the papers.
Don did this one.
The leader of the DOD labor forces in Connecticut, Sonny Metz, who's in the International Operating Engineers Union.
He used to work for Rogers, and Rogers lined him up this week.
And Hartford Courant has a big front page piece, union leaders back Nixon.
And Metz announces that he will support President Nixon, no matter whom the Democrats nominate as their presidential candidate.
We have to be Americans first and Unionists second.
For years, Matsu was in Brookfield as a close advisor to the late U.S.
Senator Thomas J. Dodd.
He's really been the leader of the Dodd labor forces.
And Don just says, these fellows work in Connecticut, and you're going to get a very large share of the Connecticut labor bill.
And I think that Don was able to force him out in the open on the McGovern issue.
He said that was the thing that just starts to scare these guys.
Boy, that's something.
What do you think Teddy is thinking about right now?
Well, I imagine he's watching this with a good deal of apprehension because... You don't think he wants to do it?
No, I'm sure he does not want to do it.
I'm just positive of that.
He knows the pressure will come on him.
He knows the pressure will come on enormously, and in fact, Muskie's move today could make Kennedy push a little bit harder to... Get McGovern?
Get McGovern.
Now, a Kennedy man, of course, I don't know whether Mitchell told you this, or McGregor, but Dwayne Andreas called yesterday to say that Mike Feldman, who used to be here in the White House, is a Kennedy man, went into Larry O'Brien this week and said, move over, we're coming to take over.
I heard that, yeah, Mitchell told me.
And that may be part of the sign that they're, I don't know whether Mike is really with McGovern or not,
I don't think Teddy wants this.
I really don't.
And I just don't think he thinks the cards are right or that he would win this year.
His best bet is to see McGovern go out there and get beaten and then Teddy take over the party, especially if he gets beaten badly, I think he will.
Well, it would be very interesting to see what all the pundits say tonight on their television thing about Muskie.
They're going to have a little egg on their face.
Take the ABC.
Oh, boy.
They're going to have a little crow to eat again.
They've really been eating quite a bit.
What the ABC guy will have to do is just have to say we were wrong or that he changed his mind, one of the two.
i think that's right i think he would i think he would have to say that that he changed his mind overnight he'll have to take that line yeah jim buckley gave us a great plug yesterday i heard yes yeah i thought that was excellent what rockefeller's doing in new york he's really going to work getting those people together oh you know when you have javits one day and buckley the next
And Buckley's statement was a marvelous one.
I sent a draft letter in to you to send him because I think he wanted to.
Oh, of course.
I called him and he told him you had noted it and how happy you were about it.
All right.
I'll do it.
I'll find the time to call him as well at a later time, you know.
Right.
The letter now and then a call later he'll appreciate.
I think that would be an excellent idea.
All right.
POW wives have been sured up after McGovern.
You may have noticed that in the news summary this morning.
Oh, is that?
No, I didn't see that.
Oh, boy, they...
I don't have it right here in front of me.
They really took off after him.
They said any man who says that you should leave the prisoners behind and bring the troops home isn't fit to be president.
They run the Today Show, and they just...
The four of them, the gals, one of them, that Hanson gal who was in the CU, who's really good, she took McCloskey on the day before, and she took...
McGovern on very hard yesterday.
Oh, on that line, Scammon thinks that the prisoner issue really hurt McGovern.
He thinks that almost as much as defense spending.
That really makes people very uneasy when...
He says, I'd bring everybody home and then leave it to their good faith.
Yeah, then get the prisoners.
Which, you know, their world opinion will bring the prisoners home.
Dole is today taking that marvelous line that you gave me yesterday, just...
fabulous that he doesn't have to go to Hanoi to... That's Henry's line, actually.
Was it, isn't it?
Yeah.
Well, he said, you know, he could do it by telegram or send him a...
He's got a very cute little statement here that I think will get picked up for the night.
Invite Madam Ben to the White House.
Yeah.
Have dinner with all the demonstrators.
Senator McGovern says he'll entertain there.
That's right.
We can...
What's the world opinion?
We've been working on it for five years, and what have they done?
We haven't even got a list of them yet.
That's right.
Now, sir, it's a weak read.
Mitchell has reservations, Mr. President.
He may have mentioned this to you, of continuing to play the news out of the Pentagon on how successful the bombing is.
It played very, very well yesterday.
We got a hell of a lot of good coverage.
What do you think?
Well, he's a little afraid that it may keep the war issue too much out of the front eye.
He may be right at this point.
It could be.
We've got the news across, and just let it set for a while.
Well, it's been, up to this point, it has been extremely effective.
I really think the public has the feeling we're winning the war, and I think they like it.
Well, these things can go in surges, though.
I'd let it rest a little while.
Well, we can sure pull back on it easily enough, because we've been prodding them every day to get it out.
They had just a wealth of it yesterday they got out, which is...
Maybe John has a point.
I don't know.
It could be that you can overplay that, although thus far I think it's been very effective.
I was delighted to see Schmitz get beaten out there.
Yeah, that was a good one.
That was a damn good one.
That's a straight-out, that's a butcher against a Nixon man in a very conservative district, and that's a very good sign to the conservatives now to shape up
Well, and Schmitz's opponent made that the issue.
He made the fact that Schmitz had endorsed Ashbrook the one issue.
His opponent just campaigned solidly for you, and that did it.
That was a good one.
That was a damn good one.
Well, okay, Chuck.