{"conversationCode":"189-012","tapeNumber":189,"conversationNumber":12,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-189-012","startDateTime":"1972-05-17T14:33:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-05-17T14:43:00.000Z","startDate":"17-May-1972","startTime":"10:33 AM","endDate":"17-May-1972","endTime":"10:43 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Dent, Harry S.;","description":"On May 17, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Harry S. Dent met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 10:33 am to 10:43 am. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 189-012 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDHW","recordingDevice":"Camp David Hard Wire","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 189-12\n\nDate: May 17, 1972\nTime: 10:33 am - 10:43 am\nLocation: Camp David Hard Wire\n\nThe President talked with Harry S. Dent.\n\n     Connecticut\n         -Trip\n         -Support for Vietnam action\n\n     An unknown man\n          -The President’s view\n\n     Vietnam\n          -Vote in Congress\n               -Republican vote\n                     -Soviet summit\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 09/10/2019.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[189-012-w001]\n[Duration: 1m 47s]\n\n       1972 election\n              -Michigan primary\n                     -The President’s attempted May 16, 1972 telephone call to Harry S. Dent\n                     -George C. Wallace vote\n                            -Significance\n                            -Potential Michigan electoral victory by the President\n                            -Impact on Democratic Party\n              -George C. Wallace\n                     -Sympathy vote\n                     -Southern states\n                     -Texas\n                            -Possibility of getting on ballot\n                     -Michigan\n                            -Possibility of getting on ballot\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n     George C. Wallace\n          -The President’s view\n          -Dr. William M. Lukash's report\n                -Possible call by President\n          -President's call to Cornelia Wallace\n          -Possible visit by President\n                -Hubert H. Humphrey visit\n                      -The President’s view\n                -Telephone call\n                -Day and time\n                -Arrangements\n                      -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman\n                      -Day\n                      -Press coverage\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 09/11/2019.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[189-012-w002]\n[Duration: 3m 11s]\n\n     1972 election\n          -John N. Ashbrook\n                -The President’s opinion\n          -Democrats\n                -Nomination\n                      -Edward M. (“Ted”) Kennedy\n                           -John B. Connally's view\n                      -George C. Wallace\n                           -Michigan victory over Hubert H. Humphrey\n                           -The President’s reaction\n                      -Comparison to the President's 1968 campaign\n                -California primary\n                      -Importance\n\n                     -George S. McGovern\n                           -Momentum\n                -Hubert H. Humphrey\n                     -Potential deal with George C. Wallace\n                -George S. McGovern\n                     -Supporters\n                           -Loyalty\n                -George C. Wallace\n                -Edward M. (“Ted”) Kennedy\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n     Vietnam\n          -Blockade\n               -Henry A. Kissinger\n               -President's decision\n                     -The President’s view\n                     -John B. Connally\n                     -Melvin R. Laird\n                     -William P. Rogers\n                     -Necessity\n                     -Alternative\n               -South Vietnam and US troop morale\n          -Future of war\n               -The President’s view","filename":["189-012.mp3"],"tapeStart":"00:57:35","tapeEnd":"01:07:21","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Dent, Harry S."],"prevCode":"189-011","nextCode":"189-013","transcript":[{"start":1.45,"end":1.71,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":3.61,"end":5.91,"text":"Well, I, uh, did you have a good time up in Connecticut?"},{"start":5.93,"end":14.88,"text":"Uh, that's the stuff, yeah."},{"start":16.32,"end":19.06,"text":"Yeah, they support, support what we did in Vietnam a little bit, yeah."},{"start":31.14,"end":32.4,"text":"What's the price of matter at this time?"},{"start":32.98,"end":34.1,"text":"He is out of his mind."},{"start":36.3,"end":36.68,"text":"They should."},{"start":37.16,"end":37.54,"text":"They should."},{"start":38.06,"end":44.7,"text":"Just before the president goes to Moscow, for any Republican, they could have gone fishing, but they should vote against him."},{"start":46.6,"end":53.23,"text":"Well, anyway, I tried to call you last night only to get the results from ahead now."},{"start":53.81,"end":58.35,"text":"But that Wallace thing was unbelievable, particularly in Michigan."},{"start":58.39,"end":60.25,"text":"Now that just shows you Michigan can be won."},{"start":61.52,"end":65.8,"text":"I mean, if we play it right, that shit's, that shit's right and I never cut it down."},{"start":65.82,"end":65.9,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":79.81,"end":82.43,"text":"Because of the sympathy and everything."},{"start":89.17,"end":89.25,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":98.67,"end":106.99,"text":"On the other hand, I would think, Harry, that he's going to have to make an awful tough decision with regard to..."},{"start":107.23,"end":116.08,"text":"He's missed quite a few states, hasn't he, in terms of, I don't know, I don't suppose many southern states, but it's awful hard for us, I understand, for him to get into Texas, for example."},{"start":116.18,"end":119.71,"text":"It's pretty hard for him to get on the ballot for Michigan, I think."},{"start":152.27,"end":154.75,"text":"Well, we can't tell about what's going to happen in this case."},{"start":154.79,"end":158.25,"text":"The poor devil has got a deal signed for him."},{"start":165.39,"end":169.77,"text":"Incidentally, the doctor tells me that he did not take a telephone call."},{"start":170.41,"end":171.13,"text":"I called his wife."},{"start":178.62,"end":179.96,"text":"Well, I think the call is better."},{"start":179.98,"end":184.52,"text":"I mean, if I go by, I mean, I thought Humphrey was way out of line to go rushing out to the hospital."},{"start":184.56,"end":187.26,"text":"That's what he said about it."},{"start":187.34,"end":199.01,"text":"Well, if I do that, you may go over."},{"start":200.25,"end":200.81,"text":"Go over to Friday."},{"start":200.83,"end":200.93,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":205.86,"end":206.06,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":209.18,"end":211.78,"text":"That would probably be better than calling on the phone."},{"start":212.1,"end":214.14,"text":"And I won't call it."},{"start":214.16,"end":214.28,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":214.32,"end":216.15,"text":"Yeah, talk to Holland about it later."},{"start":216.21,"end":219.21,"text":"See if he's worried something on Friday."},{"start":219.23,"end":225.73,"text":"Without telling a soul, I just go out there and I wouldn't tell the press or anything else."},{"start":225.75,"end":226.62,"text":"And then it'll get out."},{"start":227.35,"end":228.94,"text":"It's getting out, not publicizing it."},{"start":229.14,"end":230.08,"text":"That's the way I want to do it."},{"start":254.68,"end":257.46,"text":"Not helping Ashbrook much these days, is it?"},{"start":257.48,"end":257.56,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":257.58,"end":257.78,"text":"Oh, John."},{"start":257.8,"end":263.8,"text":"Too bad they didn't get the hell out."},{"start":264.98,"end":265.44,"text":"He ought to."},{"start":265.5,"end":268.13,"text":"I mean, he ought to unite, but he didn't look to."},{"start":268.19,"end":271.51,"text":"He's getting his ride."},{"start":274.13,"end":275.51,"text":"Sort of a pathetic character."},{"start":275.53,"end":275.63,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":278.23,"end":280.69,"text":"But looking at the Democratic side, who's going to get nominated here?"},{"start":280.97,"end":281.27,"text":"Teddy."},{"start":282.61,"end":284.01,"text":"Connelly still thinks it's going to be Teddy."},{"start":293.06,"end":297.11,"text":"Well, what surprised me is that he beat Humphrey, Michigan."},{"start":298.05,"end":298.51,"text":"Good God."},{"start":304.4,"end":304.68,"text":"Where?"},{"start":306.98,"end":307.28,"text":"Really?"},{"start":322.81,"end":346.88,"text":"yeah yeah just like we did in 68 yeah well i think the real test is california if he could if he could win that damn thing i don't it might be impossible to stop me what do you think"},{"start":365.63,"end":371,"text":"Harry, how could Hubert make a deal with Wallace after what he said about him?"},{"start":371.36,"end":373.19,"text":"What do you think?"},{"start":394.26,"end":398.16,"text":"The McGovern people may want to stick with McGovern."},{"start":398.2,"end":422.37,"text":"They really feel that way, don't they?"},{"start":422.39,"end":422.81,"text":"On Wallace's."},{"start":424.25,"end":426.95,"text":"I mean, you think it worries him."},{"start":426.97,"end":439.92,"text":"You think it worries him."},{"start":439.94,"end":444.22,"text":"I imagine what the other reasons are."},{"start":444.3,"end":445.54,"text":"Well, anyway, it's not Bell, is it?"},{"start":445.84,"end":448.9,"text":"Well, I'll tell you the best decision, I'll just tell an old Kissinger."},{"start":449.32,"end":449.8,"text":"I said, you know,"},{"start":450.99,"end":453.83,"text":"It was the toughest decision any president's made since World War II."},{"start":454.59,"end":458.45,"text":"But it's certainly, in my opinion, the best one I've made was that Vietnam."},{"start":459.17,"end":462.22,"text":"However it comes out, it's the right thing to do."},{"start":462.32,"end":474.06,"text":"And you know, we had no, as I'm sure you know, except for just among us, except for Meg Connolly, we had no strong support."},{"start":475.63,"end":477.93,"text":"But I would say the others all have gone around beautifully."},{"start":477.97,"end":479.81,"text":"Larry Rogers has done great since we've done it."},{"start":479.83,"end":480.43,"text":"But you know what I mean?"},{"start":481.46,"end":482.81,"text":"But we had to do it."},{"start":483.07,"end":486.15,"text":"And I mean, some people say, well, will it work?"},{"start":486.69,"end":491.07,"text":"And the point is, I'm damn sure nothing else would have worked."},{"start":491.11,"end":495.6,"text":"And we've now got these people where it's changed the morale of the South Vietnamese."},{"start":495.68,"end":497.78,"text":"It's helped the morale of our own forces out there."},{"start":498.32,"end":501.3,"text":"And I think it's helped the morale of all the people of this country."},{"start":501.32,"end":501.84,"text":"What do you think?"},{"start":524.89,"end":525.71,"text":"I heard that one."},{"start":528.34,"end":530.1,"text":"Good, good, good, good."},{"start":530.12,"end":532.02,"text":"All right."},{"start":534.06,"end":534.32,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":535.54,"end":536.16,"text":"Well, one thing."},{"start":536.18,"end":541.1,"text":"Well, there's still going to be some battles won and lost in Vietnam."},{"start":541.12,"end":547.85,"text":"I don't think it's going to make that much difference now because they know that we've thrown down the gauntlet."},{"start":547.87,"end":550.15,"text":"These bastards are either going to play or that's it."},{"start":551.53,"end":552.49,"text":"We'll try."},{"start":553.89,"end":554.19,"text":"We'll try."},{"start":554.21,"end":554.41,"text":"We'll try."},{"start":554.43,"end":554.57,"text":"OK, Eric."},{"start":555.23,"end":555.43,"text":"Bye."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Harry S. Dent discussed the political implications of the 1972 Democratic primary, specifically focusing on George Wallace’s unexpected success in Michigan and the potential for a GOP electoral victory. The two also addressed the logistics of a private presidential visit to Wallace following his recent injury, with Nixon expressing a desire to avoid press coverage. Finally, the President defended his recent decision to implement a naval blockade in Vietnam, asserting that it was a necessary and correct strategic move to bolster both South Vietnamese and American morale.","topics":["1972 Presidential Election","George Wallace","Vietnam War","Democratic Primaries","White House Public Relations"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T09:47:57.954Z"},"topicSlugs":["1972-presidential-election","george-wallace","vietnam-war","democratic-primaries","white-house-public-relations"],"audioDurationSec":557,"audioFiles":[{"file":"189-012.mp3","bytes":22287464,"durationSec":557.05,"bitrate":320078,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:33.323Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/189-012.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/189-012","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/189/conversation-189-012","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}