{"conversationCode":"190-020","tapeNumber":190,"conversationNumber":20,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-190-020","startDateTime":"1972-05-17T12:44:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-05-17T13:50:00.000Z","startDate":"17-May-1972","startTime":"8:44 AM","endDate":"17-May-1972","endTime":"9:50 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Dobrynin, Anatoliy F.; Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On May 17, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Anatoliy F. Dobrynin, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 8:44 am to 9:50 am. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 190-020 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDHW","recordingDevice":"Camp David Hard Wire","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 190-20\n\nDate: May 18, 1972\nTime: 8:44-9:50 am\nLocation: Camp David Hard Wire\n\nThe President met with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin and Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n[Discontinuities appear in the original recording]\n\n       [Unintelligible]\n\nThe President, Dobrynin, and Kissinger left at 9:50 am.","filename":["190-020-splice.mp3"],"tapeStart":"01:24:42","tapeEnd":"01:54:23","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Dobrynin, Anatoliy F.","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"190-019","nextCode":"191-001","aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon met with Henry Kissinger and Soviet Ambassador Anatoliy Dobrynin to discuss the ongoing war in Vietnam. The primary focus of the conversation was Nixon's dissatisfaction with the effectiveness of U.S. propaganda efforts against North Vietnam, particularly concerning the bombing campaign and potential prisoner exchanges. Nixon directed Kissinger to pressure intelligence agencies, specifically the CIA under Richard Helms, to develop more aggressive and imaginative propaganda strategies, including the dissemination of disinformation and the announcement of increased B-52 deployments, to demoralize the enemy. Nixon also expressed a desire for new ideas on psychological warfare to be presented by Friday.","topics":["Vietnam War","Propaganda","Richard Nixon","Henry Kissinger","Anatoliy Dobrynin","Psychological Warfare","CIA","B-52 Bombers"],"generatedAt":"2026-10-27T14:56:35.869Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","propaganda","richard-nixon","henry-kissinger","anatoliy-dobrynin","psychological-warfare","cia","b-52-bombers"],"audioDurationSec":1784,"audioFiles":[{"file":"190-020-splice.mp3","bytes":28478643,"durationSec":1783.98,"bitrate":127708,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-10-27T08:04:59.436Z","originalFilename":["190a.mp3"],"spliceSource":{"spliceType":"bigtape","sourceFiles":["190a.mp3"],"cutStart":238.5,"cutEnd":2022.5,"adjustedStart":238.5,"adjustedEnd":2022.5,"boundaryMethod":"llm-alignment","confidence":"high","splicedAt":"2026-10-27T08:04:59.436Z"},"transcript":[{"start":238.5,"end":242.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Well, [crosstalk] what's the evening report? Anything?"},{"start":242.5,"end":252.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":252.5,"end":258.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"And then you're getting them [unintelligible] Kontum area hard too, huh?"},{"start":258.5,"end":265.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":265.5,"end":278.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Why doesn't he just put the whole 1200 on that place [unintelligible] That's where he is, if he thinks it's there. The intelligence [unintelligible] accurate. He doesn't feel that he can really really give that a wallop? If they know they're in places, he'd know where they are."},{"start":278.5,"end":279.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"Yeah."},{"start":279.5,"end":286.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":286.5,"end":288.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah, you've told me that. Yeah."},{"start":288.5,"end":292.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":292.5,"end":310.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"The one part, Al, that I, I'm going to write a memorandum on it, but I really wish follow-up. I, I just don't think that Helms's outfit and that means of course our own outfit, even our own, that we're, we're probably doing doing the maximum that we should in terms of of propaganda, I mean in North Vietnam and in South Vietnam with the enemy."},{"start":310.5,"end":328.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Now, are we are we doing anything like, for example, saying saying we've, pointing out that more B-52s are coming and \"Come on over. You're losing,\" you know. I mean, every kind of a thing, you know, that was common place in World War II. But did, Helms's outfit ever come up with anything? I remember I wrote a memo on it about a week ago."},{"start":328.5,"end":336.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Well, what are they Well, for Christ's sake, State doesn't know anything about that sort of thing."},{"start":336.5,"end":338.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":338.5,"end":340.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":340.5,"end":342.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":342.5,"end":359.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Right. Right. What are they playing? I mean, are they playing frankly, the dirty tricks game, you know. That's what you have to do, Al, if you know. It's you've got to mislead them. You don't tell them the truth. Tell them what is not true, scare the hell out of them."},{"start":359.5,"end":361.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":361.5,"end":373.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Point that should be made is to now make a major effort to get prisoners. Just say, \"Look, it's all over, and all mine has been [unintelligible] You'll be treated well.\" And you know, items"},{"start":373.5,"end":378.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Where did these people get killed? You mean killed up in the north?"},{"start":378.5,"end":381.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"start":381.5,"end":385.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"You mean a parked plane?"},{"start":385.5,"end":392.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah. Good. Good. Good."},{"start":392.5,"end":400.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"[unintelligible] the reverses in the south on the battlefield. You see, they think"},{"start":400.5,"end":402.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":402.5,"end":419.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Just indicate indicate, if you just tell Helms to indicate the president has ordered doubling the number of B-50 B-52s, that they're on the way. Let's put that out, that the, the number is Now, we have 100. The president has ordered another 100 to come in from Europe. Put that out."},{"start":419.5,"end":422.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":422.5,"end":442.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Think up Why, I just, I, I just want them to have some imagination, Al. I don't, we, we don't do anything that, you know, in NSC group. And, and that's one place we've been terribly weak throughout this whole, piece of war. On the propaganda side, just because it's in too many hands. Christ, State doesn't understand it, do they? They're pure"},{"start":442.5,"end":444.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":444.5,"end":461.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"and all that, that's just crap. This is war. Remember George Creel in World War I? You know, even had silly OSS stuff in World War II, at times. But what, my point is, I really feel that this is a time now to if, if the, if propaganda, I mean if the tide of battle is turning, that's the time we're pouring in the propaganda. Don't you think so?"},{"start":461.5,"end":463.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":463.5,"end":467.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh."},{"start":467.5,"end":470.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":470.5,"end":472.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Ho Chi Minh's birthday?"},{"start":472.5,"end":474.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":474.5,"end":481.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Well, our guys are, are, the Americans are certainly alert to that now, the Armed Forces."},{"start":481.5,"end":482.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":482.5,"end":498.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah, but the other thing it seemed to me, remember you told me about that they just, just do one thing, why don't we do one thing? You know that C-1, what was it, C-5A they knocked out?"},{"start":498.5,"end":500.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":500.5,"end":505.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Did they have you know that plane you said they was carrying that much ammunition, killed seven guys, yeah."},{"start":505.5,"end":517.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not just put 20 B-52s in that general area there. I mean, wouldn't that be I mean, just just so the goddamn, they pulled this sort of thing they're going to get hit. Or has that been done?"},{"start":517.5,"end":522.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"You know, I, I really feel when they What was that, a, a rocket attack, or"},{"start":522.5,"end":524.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":524.5,"end":530.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah, yeah, but aim aims at hitting that area around there, I mean, if it's under fire."},{"start":530.5,"end":531.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":531.5,"end":535.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Sure, we're doing everything we can."},{"start":535.5,"end":553.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Just keep repeat the fire. Tell them on the propaganda side, just tell them that I'm, I if you could pass this word that I'm disappointed that I haven't had any ideas from Helms' outfit and not from the other outfit. And I want to see some by, I really want to see some Friday noon before I leave. What the hell are their new ideas on the propaganda front? Can you do that? Tell them I expect something, and I don't want a long paper and I don't want a long report."},{"start":553.5,"end":567.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"What new things are they suggest doing at this time, having in mind the fact that the tide of battle may be changing, and, and, and that we want to really pour terror into the hearts of the enemy? And, can you?"},{"start":567.5,"end":569.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":569.5,"end":585.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah. I want some new ideas. Just say now, and tell them to work all night. I expect them to. They can do that. Can you do that? Not routine business, you know, like the guys are out there, poor guys in that plane, seven of them dead. Let these bastards that we have here work overnight for a change. You know, tumble off their ass and think up something, you know?"},{"start":585.5,"end":590.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":590.5,"end":592.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Yeah. Good."},{"start":592.5,"end":596.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":596.5,"end":600.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Apparently, Moorer's done a good job on this."},{"start":600.5,"end":603.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"Absent? That's a good move. Okay, I'll thank you."},{"start":603.5,"end":606.5,"speaker":"Kissinger","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":606.5,"end":615.5,"speaker":"Nixon","text":"See Mr. Stewart Alsop, uh and he's a columnist in Washington, D.C. The White House operator has his number."},{"start":1846.8,"end":1847.8,"speaker":"Unknown","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":1878.8,"end":1892.8,"speaker":"Unknown","text":"[unintelligible]"},{"start":1983.8,"end":1984.8,"speaker":"Unknown","text":"Very good."}],"transcriptBoundary":{"start":5082,"end":6863,"startMethod":"llm-alignment","endMethod":"llm-alignment"},"transcriptConfidence":"medium","transcriptSource":"audio-llm","transcriptCreatedAt":"2026-10-27T14:39:50.529Z","transcriptModel":"google/gemini-3.8-flash","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/190-020-splice.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/190-020","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/190/conversation-190-020","catalogNaId":648452976,"catalogUrl":"https://catalog.archives.gov/id/648452976","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}