{"conversationCode":"195-014","tapeNumber":195,"conversationNumber":14,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-195-014","startDateTime":"1972-06-29T17:33:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-06-29T17:43:00.000Z","startDate":"29-Jun-1972","startTime":"1:33 PM","endDate":"29-Jun-1972","endTime":"1:43 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.;","description":"On June 29, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 1:33 pm to 1:43 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 195-014 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDHW","recordingDevice":"Camp David Hard Wire","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 195-14\n\nDate: June 29, 1972\nTime: 1:33-1:43 pm\nLocation: Camp David Hard Wire\n\nThe President talked with John D. Ehrlichman.\n\n[See Conversation No. 135-8]","filename":["195-014-splice.mp3"],"tapeStart":"01:04:26","tapeEnd":"01:14:50","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ehrlichman, John D."],"prevCode":"195-013","nextCode":"195-015","tapeTranscriptFile":"195a.mp3","transcript":[{"start":3865.14,"end":3868.47,"text":"It's been marked up on us."},{"start":3868.73,"end":3871.36,"text":"I didn't know it well already."},{"start":3888.5,"end":3889.06,"text":"Hello, John."},{"start":3889.64,"end":3897.75,"text":"With regard to your suggestions with regard to people on the welfare rolls, it's come down in a way that is not too effective."},{"start":3898.43,"end":3905.73,"text":"It says the Ribicoff proposals would total 35 million people on the rolls, and the reform bill would total 97 million."},{"start":3906.76,"end":3909.94,"text":"My interest really isn't how many they would add."},{"start":3910.42,"end":3914.84,"text":"So is it basically, this is, that's the total, so you'd say they would, 23 million more"},{"start":3915.81,"end":3918.32,"text":"And the other would be 75 million more."},{"start":3918.45,"end":3924.54,"text":"Either way, okay, I get the point."},{"start":3926.24,"end":3928.08,"text":"And that's the way it operates."},{"start":3928.1,"end":3932.12,"text":"So there, the line that Rivercroft would have been 80 million was too high."},{"start":3937.71,"end":3940.03,"text":"I don't think percentages mean a hell of a lot to people."},{"start":3940.09,"end":3949.82,"text":"I think they like to hear, just think of, they like to think of individuals, just think, 50 million people are going to be put in the welfare rolls."},{"start":3949.86,"end":3951.14,"text":"What a hell of a note, you know."},{"start":3951.51,"end":3956.15,"text":"Rather than the number of, that we will be increased by 33 and a third percent."},{"start":3956.19,"end":3960.33,"text":"See, that's the stuff Henry always puts in, but it doesn't mean much to people."},{"start":3964.02,"end":3970.89,"text":"You say it cripples the number of people in the welfare role and for 23 million in the NFL."},{"start":3971.21,"end":3973.11,"text":"I got it fine."},{"start":3973.85,"end":3977.83,"text":"I got it."},{"start":3977.85,"end":3983.16,"text":"I got it fine."},{"start":3983.24,"end":3983.56,"text":"The."},{"start":3983.74,"end":3987.22,"text":"Oh, nothing further on the Social Security thing."},{"start":3987.3,"end":3988.24,"text":"It's about where it was."},{"start":3992.63,"end":4004.55,"text":"The answer that Buchanan has prepared and reads and still says that I'm not going to approve a 20% rise because it would mean an increase in everybody's values and taxes."},{"start":4004.57,"end":4008.18,"text":"Do we want to come down that hard?"},{"start":4008.42,"end":4009.9,"text":"Well, basically we shouldn't say that, should we?"},{"start":4009.94,"end":4011.12,"text":"I don't want to."},{"start":4012.34,"end":4030.74,"text":"keep it open because i just might have to sign the damn thing i'll just say i will not approve any rise and it's not financed i should point out however that if it's too high it's going to wipe out the gains and the tax increases oh i see i'm sorry"},{"start":4041.47,"end":4041.57,"text":"Okay."},{"start":4041.59,"end":4042.54,"text":"It's at the fucking upside, so, uh, uh, uh, uh."},{"start":4101.47,"end":4103.73,"text":"Oh, gun control."},{"start":4103.75,"end":4116.57,"text":"He says there's a clear discrepancy between what Treachery gave us on this and what Pearshot gave us."},{"start":4116.59,"end":4118.57,"text":"I don't know, because he's for it."},{"start":4118.65,"end":4119.65,"text":"He's not for it."},{"start":4119.69,"end":4121.16,"text":"They've got to be for gun control, John."},{"start":4121.18,"end":4124.8,"text":"I mean, I don't mean, I mean that you've got to have gun control."},{"start":4131.33,"end":4138,"text":"He began and said this is primarily a matter for state and local, not federal control."},{"start":4138.02,"end":4138.62,"text":"It never worked."},{"start":4138.64,"end":4141.36,"text":"The situation is different than I did."},{"start":4143.24,"end":4147.94,"text":"But don't you think we just ought to say that a bill which deals with the Saturday night specials is very important and so forth."},{"start":4148.02,"end":4151.63,"text":"It's a matter of, if they are locked, they're important."},{"start":4151.69,"end":4157.23,"text":"It's a matter of, I feel we ought to outlaw them."},{"start":4157.25,"end":4157.67,"text":"Don't you think so?"},{"start":4161.45,"end":4165.87,"text":"Did the opinion apply to everything?"},{"start":4191.16,"end":4191.92,"text":"I better have it checked."},{"start":4191.94,"end":4193.36,"text":"I mean, well, I'll have it checked here."},{"start":4193.9,"end":4198,"text":"You see, the problem is there that I am just curious as to what I'm going to do."},{"start":4199.82,"end":4202.3,"text":"I guess if the Supreme Court does it, we have to..."},{"start":4202.96,"end":4214.91,"text":"There are four appointees to Senate, and if the Supreme Court does it, we have to accept it, but... What's your opinion?"},{"start":4214.93,"end":4216.05,"text":"Don't you think you have to accept it?"},{"start":4224.48,"end":4225.4,"text":"I think we should."},{"start":4226.48,"end":4226.72,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":4226.74,"end":4230.28,"text":"I don't think they're going to."},{"start":4230.3,"end":4237.28,"text":"I think August 7th, I'm going to comment on that if I have a chance to study the decision."},{"start":4237.3,"end":4237.5,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":4237.52,"end":4244.08,"text":"The House added $100 million to our $100 million supplemental."},{"start":4244.12,"end":4244.86,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":4244.98,"end":4250.43,"text":"Scott, the Senate was added $200 million."},{"start":4250.45,"end":4252.03,"text":"I'm not worried about that."},{"start":4252.05,"end":4252.45,"text":"If you would."},{"start":4265.14,"end":4265.48,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":4265.49,"end":4267.35,"text":"Well, would Broomfield handle Detroit?"},{"start":4267.38,"end":4275.26,"text":"Wait a minute, wait a minute."},{"start":4275.46,"end":4277.56,"text":"I thought, I understand."},{"start":4277.94,"end":4279.8,"text":"Does Broomfield go further than 803?"},{"start":4282.12,"end":4283.38,"text":"Well, it's already in there."},{"start":4284.14,"end":4285.18,"text":"We've already signed it then."},{"start":4286.03,"end":4288.4,"text":"Well, then what's this all about?"},{"start":4292.3,"end":4293.32,"text":"And so he's withdrawn it."},{"start":4296,"end":4297.8,"text":"Oh, Christ."},{"start":4298.06,"end":4301.42,"text":"Oh, I just have to say that I think we need the moratorium to stick with that."},{"start":4301.54,"end":4303.87,"text":"Is that right?"},{"start":4304.17,"end":4304.67,"text":"That's right."},{"start":4304.79,"end":4305.53,"text":"That's right."},{"start":4306.43,"end":4306.65,"text":"Fine."},{"start":4306.67,"end":4306.85,"text":"Fine."},{"start":4306.87,"end":4307.07,"text":"Fine."},{"start":4307.17,"end":4307.55,"text":"All right."},{"start":4307.59,"end":4309.19,"text":"You're having a good time out there, I hope."},{"start":4311.07,"end":4311.41,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":4312.23,"end":4312.37,"text":"Good."},{"start":4312.41,"end":4312.53,"text":"Great."},{"start":4313.13,"end":4313.49,"text":"Great."}],"transcriptBoundary":{"start":3866,"end":4490,"startMethod":"llm-alignment","endMethod":"llm-alignment"},"transcriptConfidence":"high","transcriptSource":"bigtape","originalFilename":["195a.mp3"],"spliceSource":{"spliceType":"bigtape","sourceFiles":["195a.mp3"],"cutStart":3864.5,"cutEnd":4491.5,"adjustedStart":3864.5,"adjustedEnd":4491.5,"boundaryMethod":"llm-alignment","confidence":"high","splicedAt":"2026-09-18T14:10:24.150Z"},"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and John Ehrlichman discuss communication strategies regarding welfare reform and the political messaging of Social Security increases. They also deliberate on administrative stances toward gun control, specifically the regulation of Saturday night specials, and debate the management of supplemental legislative funding. The conversation concludes with Nixon reaffirming his position on maintaining a moratorium on certain spending issues.","topics":["Welfare Reform","Social Security","Gun Control","Saturday Night Specials","Legislative Strategy","Budget Policy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T10:00:47.607Z"},"topicSlugs":["welfare-reform","social-security","gun-control","saturday-night-specials","legislative-strategy","budget-policy"],"audioDurationSec":627,"audioFiles":[{"file":"195-014-splice.mp3","bytes":10009713,"durationSec":627.02,"bitrate":127712,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T14:10:24.150Z","transcriptPrev":{"segments":70,"replacedAt":"2026-09-18T08:55:43.557Z"},"audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/195-014-splice.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/195-014","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/195/conversation-195-014","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}