Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 197 › Conversation 197-012

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Presidential debates and 1972 election

Saturday, July 22, 1972 · 2:37 PM–2:44 PM ET · Camp David Hard Wire · 5 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation197-012 on Tape 197StartSaturday, July 22, 1972 at 2:37 PMEndSaturday, July 22, 1972 at 2:44 PMRecording deviceCamp David Hard WireSourceNixon Library record for 197-012 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald L. Ziegler discuss strategies for avoiding a presidential debate with the Democratic opposition. Nixon emphasizes the need to frame the refusal by highlighting the stark policy differences between candidates and arguing that sensitive, ongoing international negotiations make a public debate contrary to the national interest. They agree on a communication plan to present these arguments to the press, aimed at denying the opponent prime-time exposure.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript is incomplete. The transcription skipped stretches of speech — roughly 3 minutes of this recording (about 56% of it) is represented by only a few words. Listen to the audio rather than relying on the text below; a corrected transcript is queued.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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So, how did the, how did he exit?
You see if he has an alarm?
12 minutes?
That's enough.
Why don't you, why don't you call him?
He don't have it yet.
Call him.
Oh, fine.
He didn't say.
That's rather good that you're stating that.
That gives me...
He may not in any event.
You can get that out when he makes his speeches now.
We'll be watching closely.
I think it's handled all right.
Your thing went right well.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
I think McGregor also might say the issues, the gulf between these two are so great, the differences between these two are so great that they don't need a debate to bring them out.
How's that sound to you?
They're so clear.
They're so clear on defense, on the other ground, on domestic policy, on economic policy.
They're so great.
They need a great turnabout.
It's certainly interesting.
The country, particularly at this time, very important negotiations are taking place involving matters of very great parts of the nation and which cannot be discussed today.
should not be discussed in the debate forum.
You ought to say that for the nation's interest to not be served.
I think it's good for him to just crack it.
I think we may as well get the debate thing out of the way now, and if they ought to suspend 315, let him squeal about anything.
Of course, having a debate would concern me a bit, because this guy doesn't have any, he doesn't have any flair at all.
I'm giving him a lot of free time.
Well, it isn't just a prestige.
I don't want to give him all that.
I just want to give him all that coverage.
You know, on prime time.
Let him get his own prime time.
But I think that's a very good thing to do.
Very good thing to do.
You can save him.
Yeah.
He's totally...
He's totally wrong about that.
And then they asked more about the fact that the president wasn't supported.
He said, well, the president was then a candidate.
But then he was on the other side.
Now having served in the presidency and so forth.
But particularly at this time, there's no time to have this.
And also because the differences are so great between the two candidates.
I think that's it.
Look, the differences between these two candidates are so clear and so great
and that no debate is necessary to point them up to the American people.
The issues will be fully discussed, but that no debate is necessary to point up those sentences.
And also, a second point, a debate would not serve the national interest.
That's pastoral, and particularly at a time, as is the present time, when international developments are of a very, very high sensitivity.
are going on which the President cannot and should not discuss in a debate.
And the matters in which, of course, the opposition candidate will be briefed on which cannot be discussed in a debate.
Okay?
All right, good.
Thank you.

NARA Description

On July 22, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 2:37 pm to 2:44 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 197-012 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 197-012

Date: July 22, 1972
Time: 2:37 pm - 2:44 pm

       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542

Location: Camp David Hard Wire

The President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.

[See Conversation No. 136-9]

Also recorded on July 22, 1972

  • 136-008 2:31 PM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:31 pm and 2:37 pm.
  • 197-011 2:31 PM · 4 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:31 pm and 2:37 pm.
  • 136-009 2:37 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:37 pm to 2:44 pm.
  • 136-010 2:44 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:44 pm and 2:46 pm.
  • 197-013 2:44 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:44 pm and 2:46 pm.
  • 136-011 2:46 PM · 38 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:46 pm to 2:47 pm.
  • 197-014 2:46 PM · 39 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 2:46 pm to 2:47 pm.
  • 136-012 2:47 PM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:47 pm and 3:57 pm.

All 29 conversations from July 22, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 197-012, July 22, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/197-012 (accessed October 12, 2026).