{"conversationCode":"197-012","tapeNumber":197,"conversationNumber":12,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-197-012","startDateTime":"1972-07-22T18:37:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-07-22T18:44:00.000Z","startDate":"22-Jul-1972","startTime":"2:37 PM","endDate":"22-Jul-1972","endTime":"2:44 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.;","description":"On July 22, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 2:37 pm to 2:44 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 197-012 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"CDHW","recordingDevice":"Camp David Hard Wire","latitudeEstimated":39.648333,"longitudeEstimated":-77.465,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 197-012\n\nDate: July 22, 1972\nTime: 2:37 pm - 2:44 pm\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\nLocation: Camp David Hard Wire\n\nThe President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.\n\n[See Conversation No. 136-9]","filename":["197-012.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L."],"prevCode":"197-011","nextCode":"197-013","transcript":[{"start":0.03,"end":15.83,"text":"So, how did the, how did he exit?"},{"start":15.85,"end":17.01,"text":"You see if he has an alarm?"},{"start":17.03,"end":22.6,"text":"12 minutes?"},{"start":22.62,"end":22.9,"text":"That's enough."},{"start":22.92,"end":23.68,"text":"Why don't you, why don't you call him?"},{"start":23.7,"end":24.12,"text":"He don't have it yet."},{"start":24.14,"end":24.32,"text":"Call him."},{"start":24.34,"end":24.52,"text":"Oh, fine."},{"start":24.54,"end":24.82,"text":"He didn't say."},{"start":27.3,"end":44.34,"text":"That's rather good that you're stating that."},{"start":44.36,"end":44.68,"text":"That gives me..."},{"start":44.7,"end":47.64,"text":"He may not in any event."},{"start":47.66,"end":51.2,"text":"You can get that out when he makes his speeches now."},{"start":51.23,"end":51.79,"text":"We'll be watching closely."},{"start":51.81,"end":52.77,"text":"I think it's handled all right."},{"start":53.23,"end":54.71,"text":"Your thing went right well."},{"start":57.68,"end":78.38,"text":"Right."},{"start":78.4,"end":78.52,"text":"Right."},{"start":78.54,"end":78.66,"text":"Right."},{"start":78.68,"end":78.8,"text":"Right."},{"start":78.82,"end":78.94,"text":"Right."},{"start":78.96,"end":79.08,"text":"Right."},{"start":83.46,"end":113.11,"text":"I think McGregor also might say the issues, the gulf between these two are so great, the differences between these two are so great that they don't need a debate to bring them out."},{"start":113.82,"end":136.07,"text":"How's that sound to you?"},{"start":136.09,"end":136.43,"text":"They're so clear."},{"start":136.45,"end":138.23,"text":"They're so clear on defense, on the other ground, on domestic policy, on economic policy."},{"start":138.25,"end":138.59,"text":"They're so great."},{"start":138.61,"end":139.17,"text":"They need a great turnabout."},{"start":139.19,"end":139.73,"text":"It's certainly interesting."},{"start":139.75,"end":143.22,"text":"The country, particularly at this time, very important negotiations are taking place involving matters of very great parts of the nation and which cannot be discussed today."},{"start":143.65,"end":153.88,"text":"should not be discussed in the debate forum."},{"start":153.9,"end":161.99,"text":"You ought to say that for the nation's interest to not be served."},{"start":162.01,"end":162.87,"text":"I think it's good for him to just crack it."},{"start":162.89,"end":168.6,"text":"I think we may as well get the debate thing out of the way now, and if they ought to suspend 315, let him squeal about anything."},{"start":168.62,"end":171.18,"text":"Of course, having a debate would concern me a bit, because this guy doesn't have any, he doesn't have any flair at all."},{"start":174.33,"end":190.11,"text":"I'm giving him a lot of free time."},{"start":190.13,"end":195.29,"text":"Well, it isn't just a prestige."},{"start":195.31,"end":195.99,"text":"I don't want to give him all that."},{"start":196.01,"end":196.85,"text":"I just want to give him all that coverage."},{"start":196.88,"end":197.35,"text":"You know, on prime time."},{"start":197.38,"end":198,"text":"Let him get his own prime time."},{"start":198.02,"end":198.88,"text":"But I think that's a very good thing to do."},{"start":198.9,"end":199.34,"text":"Very good thing to do."},{"start":199.36,"end":199.7,"text":"You can save him."},{"start":199.72,"end":199.82,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":199.84,"end":200.14,"text":"He's totally..."},{"start":200.42,"end":203.21,"text":"He's totally wrong about that."},{"start":203.23,"end":210.56,"text":"And then they asked more about the fact that the president wasn't supported."},{"start":210.58,"end":214.58,"text":"He said, well, the president was then a candidate."},{"start":214.6,"end":215.28,"text":"But then he was on the other side."},{"start":215.3,"end":216.28,"text":"Now having served in the presidency and so forth."},{"start":216.31,"end":220.09,"text":"But particularly at this time, there's no time to have this."},{"start":220.11,"end":224.78,"text":"And also because the differences are so great between the two candidates."},{"start":224.8,"end":225.16,"text":"I think that's it."},{"start":225.18,"end":229.16,"text":"Look, the differences between these two candidates are so clear and so great"},{"start":229.62,"end":249.42,"text":"and that no debate is necessary to point them up to the American people."},{"start":249.44,"end":252.51,"text":"The issues will be fully discussed, but that no debate is necessary to point up those sentences."},{"start":252.53,"end":254.47,"text":"And also, a second point, a debate would not serve the national interest."},{"start":254.49,"end":259.33,"text":"That's pastoral, and particularly at a time, as is the present time, when international developments are of a very, very high sensitivity."},{"start":259.7,"end":275.25,"text":"are going on which the President cannot and should not discuss in a debate."},{"start":275.27,"end":277.66,"text":"And the matters in which, of course, the opposition candidate will be briefed on which cannot be discussed in a debate."},{"start":277.68,"end":277.78,"text":"Okay?"},{"start":277.8,"end":278.12,"text":"All right, good."},{"start":278.14,"end":278.34,"text":"Thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald L. Ziegler discuss strategies for avoiding a presidential debate with the Democratic opposition. Nixon emphasizes the need to frame the refusal by highlighting the stark policy differences between candidates and arguing that sensitive, ongoing international negotiations make a public debate contrary to the national interest. They agree on a communication plan to present these arguments to the press, aimed at denying the opponent prime-time exposure.","topics":["Presidential debates","1972 election","Public relations strategy","National security","Campaign communication"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T10:05:30.746Z"},"topicSlugs":["presidential-debates","1972-election","public-relations-strategy","national-security","campaign-communication"],"audioDurationSec":281,"audioFiles":[{"file":"197-012.mp3","bytes":11263791,"durationSec":281.46,"bitrate":320158,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:35.863Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:43:02.501Z","transcriptGapSeconds":157,"transcriptGapShare":0.56,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/197-012.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/197-012","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/197/conversation-197-012","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}