On July 22, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Tricia Nixon Cox, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 3:05 pm and 3:57 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 197-017 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
It was a very small wedding, I guess, wasn't it?
Which is actually a big wedding, small by some standards.
Very nice, thank you for having me there.
Well, we have pictures taken for Life Magazine and The Modern.
Not a very interesting country to watch.
Part of this is a young guy who covers, has a foreign accent and covers Russia.
I'm not sure that's good.
Well, it's an interesting thing.
He's a pretty unsympathetic character right now.
He is in a sense, in a sense, but I was following him the first two days before he met my father, but that was true.
But you notice when he won, the damn crowds all went.
He's like, I'm sorry, what did he do?
He's like Ted Williams.
He's like all of the great artists and so forth.
These sons and daughters have done something.
He's going to win.
They did.
Completely.
control and arrogance and all that apparently.
But he doesn't want the cameras.
He doesn't want the cameras and he wants money.
He comes from a very poor family with both parents dead.
But anyway, remarkable kid.
If he comes in, we're sure going to see him.
There'll probably be a whole lot more people that are going to like him or dislike him.
The other one who's for us who is exactly the opposite is Chris Everts, the
You know, the little tennis player.
I didn't know that.
She's old enough that she's only 16.
She'll be 18.
The question is whether she'll be 18 in time to vote.
She'll be 18 this year, but they're not sure whether she'll find out.
They picked it up somewhere, and she may do the Pledge of Allegiance in one session of the convention.
Okay.
She's for us.
And she is, you know, she just captured the world's imagination.
Is that right?
Well, she's cute, and she's apparently a good sport, as well as a star performer.
Yeah.
And she lost to that Guga Long, or whatever her name is.
She lost to Guga Long.
Yeah.
They're both very young.
Chris Devers will be a champion in sport.
Absolutely.
John Whitaker was talking this story.
I guess it was Ken Cole was talking to Mayor Rizzo.
And Rizzo said, I'm sitting here watching the tennis on TV.
He says, I never watch tennis on TV, but I'm watching this Googie Wong or whatever her name is.
And he said, she's an average, isn't she?
Ken said, yes, she is.
He said, yeah.
Well, I'm sitting here watching her at the tennis matches.
And he said, my wife thinks I'm watching the tennis ball, but I'm watching that average body, and that's a hell of a body.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I never watched tennis, but he came like that.
Oh, I have to tell you, I thought your advice to Ron was excellent.
On the inevitable debate challenge and so forth, to have a greater handle on it.
Right.
And knock it off right now.
Let's get it over with.
Also, I think we've got to set the pattern that you don't answer McGovern's blips, because he's going to be lobbing stuff at us all the time.
Sure.
I think the beauty of McGregor, the beauty of the McGregor operation, is you're going to just use him all the time.
Sure.
McGregor will respond.
McGovern has to.
He's got a challenge.
He's got to be able to do things and challenge each other and try to have conversations and so forth and so on.
I told him to check that to be sure.
I think that's right.
That's correct.
I knew Humphrey and Muskie had, but I wasn't sure what I'm going to have.
I think he did.
Whatever the case may be, they were all free, I think.
I think so, too.
I just, I found it going back on so much of our stuff, we didn't have any McGovern study.
The second point, the second point that I said the name was the second, that the differences between these two candidates are so great and so clear,
that no debate is needed to bring out such a good point.
And third, that, sure, the President, like I mentioned before, when he was not a candidate, suggested that there shouldn't be debates, but at this, but now, particularly with the international situation, there are very sensitive matters that are being discussed and debated about certain national issues.
Somebody ought to go out and say that, for God's sake, with McGovern's total irresponsibility and his running around talking to North Vietnamese, that the president would be out of his mind and would be jeopardizing national security to debate.
Oh, he even had this story in the Jack Ennis today, the headline, I know he supports McGovern.
I didn't see that.
Oh, he wants McGovern.
He wants McGovern.
Of course he wants McGovern.
Well, it's quite true he is irresponsible.
I agree with that.
We're going to have to be very, very careful for raising a son of affection.
Yeah, we can't treat him like you would treat an honorable guy.
I mean, Hubert Humphrey, you could be honest with him.
Well, you can't treat him that way for two reasons.
One, because of himself, and two, because of the people around him.
I mean, it would be like grieving Henry Wallace.
It really would.
Sure.
Tell me what your thoughts are.
Henry Wallace was...
You picked up a little cold in California.
No.
You've got to understand air conditioning.
As soon as they heat in the air conditioning thing, it's horrible.
I got a little too, but it's just...
I thought myself sneezing around.
I thought maybe it was some virus.
No, but anyway, on the debate thing, we're just going to start off and do it early.
And then say, well, we're going to have a debate period.
They let them squeal.
Let me say the basic reason for it, the real reason for it, I think, is that they've got to have your theory about money is true.
We would be giving them enormous time exposure.
It's just money.
Because see, the debates give him just what Overton was talking about.
Give him a chance to get on all three networks at once, again, which he had a big
convention, it won't have an end unless we give it time.
Which brings to mind the business of the press conferences.
Do we, are we, are we inevitably going to just
knowing about our own situation, are we going to bring him on to the three networks simultaneously by the press conference device?
I used to just, I know with this, I know having one this time at this period will not, it cannot.
It's like one right after the convention.
I wonder if you have a press conference then.
If you don't, it is inevitable to bring him in.
I think the way I would do that one accidentally is to
i would do that with a double thing too i think in order to get i think i would get
I think I would have one a week before, you know, to do that with just any questions they might.
But that's the few, just a lot of the few political things.
I'm not going to take any questions at all at this time, including political questions, without, you know, talking, you know, just so forth.
When we get on national television and so forth, I'm not going to take political questions on national television.
It's just free time.
I think we can do it.
That would set a basis for their not giving any cool time.
I'd say, I will not take partisan questions in a press conference because I think that's not a fair advantage, you know, or something like that.
At that point, after that, to the convention, whether in a televised press conference, if I would have taken partisan questions.
Otherwise, he has the same shot that I've got in saying, no, don't say no.
Well, at least we'll look at it.
That's to your advantage not to take the political questions anymore.
The political questions are not going to do us a damn bit of good on national television, mainly because they will be so antagonistic in terms of, well, what about Agne?
What about what this fellow said?
What about this dirty question and so forth?
And I'm just going to say, General, I'm going to miss the presidential press conference all the time.
I would just say I'm not going to have a political press conference where you can ask any questions you want.
This is one where, but, uh, when I, when I'm off, then I'll, I will announce that I'm going to do a press conference, a televised press conference, which will not be a, a political question, so ask it.
I'm just going to ask a question.
Is it possible visibility?
What is it?
Uh,
Of course, then the questioning would go very heavily to foreign policy questions.
If you get off the political stuff, then the stuff that they go on is the... Well, it usually does, but...
Donald Reagan has called, wants to talk to you and wants to find out with you the report on this trip.
And I don't see how you can avoid it.
Well, I'll have the appointment, but I haven't talked to him on the phone.
That's not necessary.
I think he probably is just assembling down.
He's back in California.
And I don't know what he called him.
He called the second hand.
So they told him to go away.
They told him to go away to Camp David.
And he's talked to Al Haig.
And he said the governor would like to talk to the president for a few minutes sometime this weekend if he has a chance.
And...
Also, in the next couple weeks, we'd like to see him.
He's going to be in California now, so that's not...
I think you have to.
We've just got to keep doing it.
What I'm trying to do is just get the hell back here.
It's important to see him do it once, but...
He is just really such a pretty bore when he reports a constriction.
I'll bet he is just because he's inscribed.
I can't have very much to say.
He doesn't know much to say.
He doesn't know much about it.
You know what I mean?
When he reports things, it's like they were the second coming.
But that's it.
Of course, I just don't know.
How the hell we got decided on constriction, I don't know.
All we saw was that it got bent and the grave element came.
Rayville started it, and then he wanted to take a picture.
I guess he expanded it, but I am partying around over there in Europe, just for any interest at all.
He's the one, Bob, that we just got to, looking to the future, that just cannot be a part of any of our future plans, because he's just too damn much of a...
I don't know how the hell we can curse a guy from California for being racist.
He said before, he won't make any difference.
Don't you think that his influence will be down a lot by the time we get down there?
I think it will.
Way down?
I think we just got to straight up like that.
He doesn't want that, of course.
He wants to keep him around.
I hadn't thought of it, but if he makes the other call a doctor, then Finch might be governor.
Yeah.
I don't know why, but I still really would strongly do it.
I'm trying to say I'm sad.
So the governor mentioned just be a disaster as governor.
He won't be a good governor, but he thinks he can win for governor.
Build a party, and the outage is always .
And a senator can build a party.
A governor can do it more.
Jobs and so forth, but the thing is that, you know,
The bench in terms of administration would be a place that can do a magic ending of a budget.
You know, really, these budget decisions can be imagined in details.
Also, what he also now is is he promises a job to four different people and nobody knows who the hell it's going to be.
Justice Gilliam heard it yesterday.
How did we leave the Rollins?
see him because we don't want to get you don't want to sit down on this fundraising for candidates i don't think we left it anyway except that under no circumstance will i do it and i don't want to i don't want to hurt it but i don't want to get in i do not want to i just don't think we ought to have special funds for candidates this time
You see, what are Rollins and Evans talking about is that they want to set up this thing.
The operation.
I don't know who the hell's behind it.
Do you think Murray's in this thing somewhere?
Somebody's in there trying to pull it.
People recommending it are Mitchell, Dent, and Kompak.
Oh, sure.
And they have in mind a similar thing to 70, where we raise money for allocations to special senate governors, possibly some congressional campaign.
Yeah.
So the idea originated with Rollins and Evans.
And then they say that Sam's Dominic Wilson and the Republican Governors Association may object, which they will.
So they would do it as quietly as possible, objected to help the presidential race and win, strongly supported by President Campbell Hill and Bernie Sanders.
It just isn't going to work.
What we kind of came down on was that providing this kind of money was counterproductive and that we didn't
Oh, I'm against it.
Okay.
I'm against it if you can get it turned off.
In terms of the fact that there's just too damn many people with, you know, their hands in the till.
I mean, if you think, if you really think that you might pick up dirty senators who do what you're doing.
I don't.
I'm by this.
I think the ones that we're going to pick up will, just what Conner was saying, they'll raise their own money.
Okay.
And the ones that have to be fed, you know, hand fed this way are not going to work out anymore.
You know what they'll end up with, they'll end up like Carl Curtis, you know, I don't know what happens.
So I'm not kidding.
I'm certainly not kidding.
Henry Currents wants to make his annual report.
I don't see, do you have to do that or do you?
I think Henry should make it, tell him we ought to make it after the election.
After the election, so that, and closer to the time we make up the budget decisions, so that I can have it in mind.
In fact, I think you ought to start that with virtually every day, and pretty important there is, unless you think it's going to help us in the election.
These are all, you know, this just turns every year about this time.
He appears, January, July, he always wants to see the President.
So we run him by for a quick fending patent.
I know, I know, it's very, you know, what do you think it's worth?
No, I don't.
It is worth it.
It takes very much time, but he deals so damn badly, he doesn't get much time.
I think, you know, let's not make a capital case out of it, but of course, some of the bitch-eating figures, he works hard.
There's nothing.
No, I just think we ought to say that we're pushing all these reports.
And I can have a little more time to think about it right now.
We're so short.
News type things for this week.
We want to do it.
They have the big...
four top drug enforcement guys have their fiscal year end reports on drug enforcement results at home and abroad, which probably is a good thing for you to do because we've got good stories on all of them.
It's just to, you know, in for a couple minutes, get a picture, let them go out and read the press, and then it's Monday duty of writing.
Do it Monday.
Because they're right in town.
You can't run that fast and do it now.
Our drug thing I mentioned to you last night, the big poll, shows that we're scoring some points on the drug thing coming up soon.
You wanted to do the Secret Service reception with Watt.
Do you still want to do that?
Alright.
Do you want to try and do it this week?
Friday at 4 o'clock I've got a break on.
Is that set now?
Good.
After the golf, do you want to go over to that beach?
It is.
because that was the first, and then it was the first chance you had to go, and it's available.
You know, I didn't have to use it.
It's not in here.
It's too bad that I can't, I think I should go there first without Pat, so that I can look over the bandwagon and see if she'd like it.
Absolutely.
I could do that, and I could have just, I have a late dinner that night.
It's no fun to go to any of these places.
I'm sorry to call this a first, you know, I don't know whether they're ready, but that's all right.
All the mayor revenue sharing guys are being to testify this week.
Take a session with them for breakfast or something.
Well, let's not do that.
I think we've done the governor's time.
We've done revenue sharing.
We've done business.
We've done so many times revenue sharing.
Business.
New York, Nassau, Atlanta, Louisville.
There's Detroit and Berkley, Louisville, Haskell, Wilmington, Mayer, Milwaukee.
There's some things out here.
Holden, Seattle, Alexander, Syracuse, Martin, Norfolk.
Well, I wouldn't get how many people are there in Shaper, Beaumont, Moneta, San Jose, two, three, four, 14.
But why don't we just do them?
I have some of my own people this time.
I have them in the cabinet room.
Not breakfast with Kelly.
Don't you agree?
I think breakfast is all right.
You take less time.
What day is all this?
Tuesday.
Tuesday's the day they're here.
You have to do it.
Fine.
Tuesday's the first thing in the morning because they go to the good center for next week.
Fine.
You mean maybe they have to have records?
No, I think you can probably do it at 9 in that case.
At 9, and that gets cut off.
Yeah.
And you want to take a picture shot with the future farmers, state presidents?
50 state presidents.
We didn't last year.
It's a high school kid's picture.
That's all right.
You could bring it to the White House on Thursday.
You could do it after the press conference Thursday afternoon.
Just have them come into the Oval Office and shake hands with the cabinet members on it.
You say hi to them.
That's what you did last year.
Remember when they were on the tour and you just went in the cabinet room when they were at that part of their tour?
We can have Pat or Trisha do it.
I think this is one that's good for you, though.
Then we've got, on Friday, is the 50th anniversary of the U.S. Day Jury Recognition of the Baltic States.
You have never met with the Baltic representatives.
I can't?
Oh, hey, there's...
I wondered about that.
I guess if I fix the Russians right in the ass.
Exactly.
There's only any Australian left.
their support and gratitude to you for your accomplishments for the one percent declaration of gratitude for recognizing their countries as free and independent 50 years ago i appreciate the non-recognition of the incorporation of all these states by the ussr you mean hague approved that right straight up yeah that's what it says i couldn't believe it but i
But don't tell Henry that Hayden Cooper would be angry about it because it would just blow on him.
I just know that's wrong.
I know it's wrong.
How does that sound?
John Hanna has pleaded with, incidentally, that Hayden could receive it.
He could do that.
If he does it at that level, that's all right.
But even that has to be clear.
I just don't think I should do it.
Right.
Yeah, he says after 40 months he's reached a point where he has a need for a personal conversation.
He's a good man.
That's fine.
He has turned out to be a good man.
Oh, hell yes.
He stands up.
He's strong.
He's a breath.
Politically strong.
Sure.
So plan a half hour for that.
you know, the shirts they have on.
Secret Service want to hold it out until next week or something?
Or put it on later on?
You know, the better time to do that is after the two convictions.
You said temporary.
What do you think?
Getting it out in the summer.
I just want to do it as a courtesy to them.
Good.
I don't think it matters.
If you're going to do it, it's probably easier to get it out of the way now.
I have to worry about it.
Well, we could do it on Friday.
Maybe Thursday.
Thursday.
Thursday about 5 o'clock.
You can do the press conference in the morning on Thursday.
Or the afternoon at 3 o'clock.
He had something else with him.
That's all right.
Well, a few of your farmers, but that's just a couple of hours.
Or get Hannah in there.
Or a two-seater.
Fine, good.
I'll take a secret service then.
Be sure it's clear.
I've got to get her some cheese bread.
they want to have a meeting of the property review board this week
give their two-year report to you, which would be for the purpose of your legacy of parks program.
I think this is good for us to do.
We've turned over $98 million worth of federal property.
144 different pieces of property.
all key states including heavily texas california okay florida all right just so they make it brief new jersey they're talking about just a 10 minute thing so they can hand you the report and they use that as the okay that's the thing to go out and make a press pitch congressional guys are asking we've still got
72 incumbents that we haven't done pictures with.
We only have one more opportunity.
I think we probably do, but I sure think we ought to say this is the last shot.
Except one session, and that's it.
We'll pick a time.
We'll make it all.
You know, we just can't go on and on and on.
I see your phone call.
That satellite thing we talked about.
If we're going to do it, it would be Wednesday, but it's taking a couple minutes, which I think is no problem, I guess.
This is your office.
There's no foreign policy value.
Birch is going to be at the ceremony, and Henry says that as long as Birch is there, he doesn't see how or, you know, what point there is the President doing it, that he would defer to the political commentations, pointing out that since you did the same for the Arabs, you justify this to balance, as she has.
And she's made a big thing of wanting to work closely with you.
I don't know if she's asked for it or not.
Girls Nation, we're not going to be right.
We don't want to do that.
Let's do it if you don't want to address the Attorney General's conference on crime reduction.
No sir.
I see nothing in that.
I think that's not the place to make the crime speech.
What do you think?
There's a crime right there at this point.
I'm dying to do it.
Well, who's going to do it?
Well, I don't know.
It's at the Great Hall of the Department of Justice.
300 chiefs and sheriffs from around the country.
That's what it is.
It could be a noontime deal.
You can do it on Friday.
It's a way to make the television.
If you want to do it.
They're doing a day-long seminar.
Somebody just get me out.
Sure.
I don't want to read anything.
I'll keep going.
I'm just reading.
Okay.
Okay.
Mr. Thomas is asking to see you.
Perhaps what he considers another move almost as dramatic and important as your timely big injury.
Would you like to bring Dr. Peel along?
I think someone else on the... No.
I'm straight-out going to ask your name.
I just can't do it.
It's probably something to do with... Do you have a board policy that you really ought to talk to Mr. Thomas?
Mr. Thomas?
You get in a bad spot if you listen to Samuel McCollis.
He's an older man now.
He's an older garrulous, and now he's more garrulous than ever.
I just don't want to get into what he's all about right now.
I'll listen to Burgess.
Has Henry asked you about seeing Sir Alec Hinn in September?
No, but I would do it.
He's going to be here to attend the opening of the U.N. General Assembly.
You're going to get this with some others.
I will.
September 25th and 30th.
That's a good thing to do a few of those, though, because it's something to do with the other candidates.
I would do him in any event.
That probably would be a good question.
He'll definitely do it.
I think he knows it.
I'm so anxious.
Are you there?
Well, I think it's important.
I'm going to do it for breakfast next week.
Okay.
I do it for breakfast on Friday.
That's what I mean, this coming week.
Yeah.
Friday of this week, or I can do it on Monday or Tuesday.
Okay.
It covers the range of what we've tried to get down to.
While we're trying to cover some of these, you know, with a minor thing of your time to make some, get some news out of it, or stuff that isn't of overriding importance.
I was going to cut that out.
It's unusual.
I know.
They all need support.
It only makes a very good point.
His point is that the, uh, inevitably, you see, as the gap narrows, this one has to narrow some.
And as it narrows, the important thing to do is to have the
to be in a position as it narrows as we see it or sense it in Maryland.
So he comes around, of course, to the idea that we're doing our best, of course,
I had to think they put it whenever we wanted it.
And I told him on the first week of October, it was a little later than that.
I don't think of any other kind of things.
I do it also in terms of our campaign.
I think in terms of our, in terms of our, what do we call our, motorcade.
big, you know, big public claim kind of thing.
Maybe that that should be delayed a little bit.
I'm calling this as a justice, I'm thinking on those terms.
I took, I think you're talking about not building the Chicago Motor Team, and I was exactly right.
Not building, it's too damn dirty.
You know, I think you lose the effect and you pile two stories on top of each other, or three, but thinking ahead to the future, I think we want to figure out that that border chain business line will be held until about the, you know what I mean, not in terms of, well, we will not think in our own minds when all the campaign begins.
let's just wait, that's when the campaign will be meeting up, and then have one hell of a motorcade in Chicago, maybe in New York, we might even do New York by that time, and so forth.
That's right.
In Chicago, Westchester, maybe spend a day in Los Angeles, you know, rough as it is.
We might even go down that damn peninsula.
So,
One of the things we have to do is to be constantly, in this period of August and September, is to keep running until they are able to count.
He's done.
Well, he's got one more to go, but we told him a while back to cover the 50, so he would have done it.
Just so he could say it, just as you have.
The way it came out today, he said he was going to campaign in 50 states.
No, did he?
I didn't hear about it.
He can do it.
He can do it, but he's got to get going now.
Now he can count the district, and I get rid of Alaska, which is one of the problems.
Connelly made the point that then I, that I raised the goal, but I then, I came back on it and said to my brother, I'm not going to let go.
I don't want to play ball.
I think that it would be very, very good public relations.
He appeared to be good.
He just didn't give me chances.
I think it's going to be hard to tell this morning, and it moved on the wire.
Before this big announcement and all that, he was out on the White House tennis court playing tennis with Rod Diver and
Two big tennis pros or something.
It just kind of sounded sort of funny.
Here he is supposed to be getting ready to leave on this big trip.
He was playing tennis this morning.
He postponed the start of his trip until 2 o'clock.
I don't know for what reason, except he did tennis game.
I don't know.
It doesn't give the impression of a serious man.
I don't have to give that impression very much.
Most people are quite aware of it.
As we start talking, this is very important.
Unfortunately, that's what bothers me is he didn't understand the point of why not.
He made the argument he understood.
Unfortunately, he said he hadn't.
He knew it was counter to what you were saying, but he didn't understand why.
But it's such good things that need to be said.
I argue all that, but then again, the thing we've got to do is be firmer and more direct with it than we've been.
We've been too nice, we've done too much of sort of suggesting and saying, well, don't you think?
I think we've just got to say, look, this is what you've got to do.
Because remember, he said, well, no, I'm a team player.
I'll do what I'm told.
He's got to be told.
He's got to be told.
And I think he will do what he's got to do.
I think his going to the stage is all right.
He's got plenty of time.
His idea of chartering a plane is a darn good idea.
Excellent.
Excellent.
be better planning, better for him.
Well, he can land up in smaller cities, smaller airports, which is a good idea.
And for him, airport rallies and some of that kind of thing is bad.
If he's going to do the 50 states, he's got to do some of them as prop stops.
And if he does prop stops, he should do them in small cities, not big cities.
You don't want a prop stop in Los Angeles, but you can sure do an effective prop stop in San Bernardino.
Or San Bernardino.
That's right.
Ontario airport.
You can get a hell of a crowd at Ontario.
Get a hell of a crowd at Orange County airport.
You can do a pretty good, instead of a motorcade, a prop stop in California.
Hello?
Is Tricia there, please?
Hello?
Hi.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Well, of course.
We were glad to go.
Well, it was a pretty wedding, and you looked beautiful, and I was so glad that you were able to do it for Julia.
Yeah.
You're darn right, you're darn right.
Well, it went well for the reception.
We're good.
Good, good.
We're good, that's fine.
You'll have a great time there.
Right.
Oh, oh, that'll be nice.
Right, right.
Where did you have the reception?
Oh, yeah.
That's good.
That's good.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah, that was a nice group.
Good.
Oh, that was great.
That's good.
Okay.
Well, I'm glad you got it.
Don't go outside today.
It's too damn hot.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Okay, bye, bye.
Well, we've been working on this for a long time.
We need to get some power in those people who work for us.
Oh, I can have that working.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
All right.
We can get...
some good stuff put together, then I think I've just got to sit down with him.
What do you and I do with the school and stuff?
He has to do it, because when you do it with him, he calls in about 30 staff members, and then they debate everything.
Oh, yeah.
He has a Secret Service guy that sits in on his schedule planning.
I think I'll just ask him if I just couldn't sit down with him and go over this stuff.
And then we'll turn it over to the people who can go on.
Just so we get some general information.
Because it gets into these, God, 70.
Bryce Harlow, of course, was traveling with us, and he said, I don't know if you've got Bryce in a meeting, automatically add 20 minutes to the point of discussion.
Correct.
And the Secret Service guy would say, well, no, there's a junior college within 100 miles of here.
Can you do that?
You had some goddamn good advice yesterday, if you'll remember.
I wrote it all up.
I made notes on it, and I did it in very rough note form.
And then I just called him and said, I said, I have some rough notes for the meeting, if it'd be of any help to you.
He said, yeah, right.
I appreciate it.
So I sent him a note.
So he's, and I, you know, hit the specific points, all the things that you, I did, you covered.
Good.
So he's got to kind of look back on it, because he wasn't making any notes, and I just figured it was worth getting it all down.
No, it's all there.
Well, I'd like to have to play back to them.
So when we get into a discussion on something, you just say, well, remember, talk to the president.
You made the point there.
I had one other on this.
Bill Brock wants to bring Johnny Cash in just to say hello.
I'm wondering if he'll be in town to testify on drugs.
It's another, but we can assist a five-minute hand check.
Yes.
He's one of our good ones.
Oh, yes.
On a general basis, do you want to consider addressing the American Health Congress in Chicago on August 7th?
August 7th?
No.
I don't want to speak to the person who went to Chicago as a national.
I don't want to make a speech on health at that point, no.
I wouldn't think so.
No.
No.
I've got a damn thing to say about that that I can make any puns on.
It's a loser at this point.
The other pitch is you can call attention to your health program.
Hit Congress for not moving the program.
Take credit for reducing the inflation rate by half in medical care prices.
I like the U.S.-Russian health agreement.
Not that the nursing home plan has been fulfilled.
It's a big, big deal, but it's obviously big.
You only get 5,000 people.
It's only about 5,000 people.
But I just don't like the forum.
It's hospital and nursing home representatives, so it's not really medical.
No, no, I don't want it.
I don't want it.
I don't want it.
Lay back.
come on strong in the end.
It's all that's left of him.
Goddamn it, there's quite a bunch of guys that can't do it.
He's got to get out there and carry the battle to us.
He's got to go every goddamn day.
He's got to go all out.
Everything.
I don't see how he can lay back.
I got to say, I'm going down to the colony.
I had a...
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I hope he laughed at it.
Wasn't that something?
And then I read Brayden's column.
Brayden, which, what's your time, what's the government really like?
Yeah.
And what's the first, the British and the First Lady, what do you think he would have given to something that, at least to Mrs. Johnson, and of course, had it better known than any of them?
No, anyway.
Eleanor Roosevelt, and we've mentioned a Jackie Kennedy.
That's right.
But that's, it's really, you know, the,
They're, they're total, total, man, there's nothing.
But those people, see the Brayton car and the Fridgey car don't run anywhere, so it doesn't really matter much.
Right.
Except what's not, it's just sick and a goddamn thing.
But the point is, if they really want to become a mechanic car, they have to figure it out.
Or somebody, if you notice the Brayton thing where he said that,
George McGovern was so brave and so pained when Hubert took him on, and he's never said an unkind word about Hubert.
What in the name of God does he think McGovern said after the Calabino?
Remember those, what he called them?
He called them, I don't know, it was a steal, it was dirty politics, remember that?
Good Lord, what in the Christ does he call that?
Fell all apart.
I think that it's worth sort of thanking him.
Totally.
Just a blatant lie.
I don't know.
You know, Brayton, I didn't tell him a lie, but Brayton won't bother him to death.
I'm not going to post.
I should bother him to death.
Oh, well.
Brayton is such a complete government apologist.
Yeah.
I don't know what to think of this.
Well, Brayden was in total control.
Oh, it was kind of fascinating.
The way he translated the... See, Henry's been to all those Brayden supper parties.
The standing side.
Yeah.
The way Henry put it one way and Brayden put it the other.
The positive twist.
Yeah, he's standing on...
Somewhat apart, observing.
Observing.
Not part of the crowd.
He said he stands over there and everybody has to come over
pay their respects to them.
I only mention that because I do believe that that level of confidence is just pouring that stuff out.
Well, you know, the stories, I mean, the news magazines and so forth, it's a pretty, you always get a candidate to build up at this point.
I mean, you've got to get a lead.
Biographical tribe, yeah.
But this stuff is so sick of them.
The ideal man to be a part of on a cool ship.
Unflappable.
Yeah, unflappable.
He fell all apart.
Stamping his feet and everything else, and he had one setback.
Yeah.
Well, I think though that it's not only that, but I think that you've got that, the McCrory client, and the whole sort of establishment press side involved.
They're his greatest allies now.
McGorry's thing was a mixed bag last night.
It was a strange column.
The fact that you read it, that column, and you're convinced she's subject.
It wasn't a pure pro-McGovern thing at all.
She got very much the other way for a while.
And then she kind of wandered.
She does that.
She sort of wanders around.
And you're never quite sure what it is she's trying to say.
I don't even remember what it was, but she had a couple pretty good and bad ones on it.
She had another strong pro-government conclusion.
They should start referring, I guess, to the more of the effect that that will have on sort of the columnists and the establishment and the TV people across the country.
That looks pretty good.
You know, I think Wallace is just not well.
Just by God doesn't feel like doing it.
Well, I think he honestly doesn't want it.
Well, I can guarantee you that.
He doesn't want both Gallup and Harris coming down hard on that point.
Well, did we poll, did we poll, did I poll the three-way?
Yeah.
Let me have it right here.
Sure.
I'd like to see that on our show, see it there.
Thank you.
Our two-way was 54-27.
And our three-way is 42-25.
21 or 42?
25.
We lose 12 points.
He loses two.
He loses two.
Our shows are even more important.
Wallace gets 21.
And he picks up 12 from us, 2 from him, and 7 from Dr. Seidner.
No, wait a minute, that's not right.
Yep, 7 from underside.
See that is right, that's correct.
It's 56-37, and then 46-32.
Wallace gets 18 on Gallops, and there he picks up 10 from us, 5 from Montgomery.
Well, we had that Harris one.
One was 5535.
No, that's this one.
That was 453116.
Wait a minute.
The one Colson got the Bullen Cola on last night was 55315.
Well, it may still be, but we have, I don't have the date on it, but we have a 55-35 yards pole.
And it was in early July.
July 1st to 4th, I think, something like that.
1st to 6th was 55-35, right?
It was 55-35-10.
It may have been later.
And with all that has been printed in... Yeah, I think it has.
With Wallace it's 45-31.
So it's the same as Gallup.
Wallace gets 10 from Hummus.
Gallup is taken after the election and Harris is taken before.
But it gets the same figures.
A year ago, we polled Nixon and McGovern in April of 71.
That was 56-28.
That's $54.27.
$54.27.
$54.27.
$54.27.
The loss didn't take as much from us.
The loss only got $15.
We ended up $49.24 instead of $42.25.
The loss didn't take as much away from us a year ago as it does now.
Our wall is bigger than anybody does.
We get a 21 and nobody else gets more than 18.
We get a lot more when there's 100, too.
Much higher when there's 100.
I don't know why, because we usually don't.
On a telephone call, I don't really get one.
Our trial needs have been not, well, we haven't done any for a while, so.
We haven't done any against McGovern.
See, we quit doing McGovern.
We had him in in April of last year, and we quit doing him.
He's got another one that says the same thing.
There's no change.
Maybe we want to release this.
Agree or disagree on the issue of questions?
Not as an ORC release, but maybe as someone putting it out, someone saying it.
in speech or something.
Maybe we don't, maybe we don't want the government, I don't think so, to have it all over here.
He's gotta be pulling that himself.
I wouldn't put it on.
Just so we know.
I wonder if we should tell some of our people that
Not on the specific poll data, but that we've got some.
We've been given some poll stuff that shows that he runs 2 to 1 anti on virtually all those.
Yeah.
And which one?
Particularly the way to state the question on defense.
That's the whole point is how that's done.
Well, it runs 4 to 1 against him on busing on a national basis.
Everybody says busing is not a national issue.
Well, it's probably not a national concern, but you sure can't lose anything like a national heartburn.
All of our early groups of people, you know, felt that busing was a bad issue.
It is a bad issue.
It may not be a useful issue in a lot of areas, but when it's put to people, they're against it.
Seventy-four percent.
Eighteen-four.
The defense budget is better than 3-1 against.
But that's when you put it in relation to Soviet Union.
You see how Gallup did not do it.
Question.
If you go to people and say, would you like us to cut the defense budget, they're going to say yes.
Sure.
That's like going to say, would you like us to get out of the war in Vietnam?
They'd say yes.
Gallup used to ask that question.
Gallup used to do it.
You'd better withdraw all American forces by the 1st of January.
Right.
Then everybody closes.
You'd say yes if you put it... You'd say if you'd be able to withdraw American forces, if it means taking the country over the communists, they'd say no.
That's the difference.
You have to put it in what the hell it means.
Amnesty, he's wrong three and a half to one.
Marijuana, he's wrong three to one.
Almost.
He's covered.
He's standing on both of those.
A thousand dollars a year is wrong almost five to one.
That's extreme.
But that's unfair.
If he did not withdraw, he's wrong two to one.
How did you put that question?
It was a little dirty.
We should withdraw all our troops from Indochina immediately and then take on faith that the North Vietnamese will release our POWs.
That's what he said.
Well, that is his position.
Sure it is.
Well, I've just hit it pretty hard on that, that he can't say he would have the PFWs back in 90 days, because it isn't up to him to decide that.
They're left-handed.
But, yeah, they've all... That's one that he just hasn't bounced.
Thank you.
You start with that one.
All right, that's fine.
Yeah, what I meant, I think it's pretty hard to re-appraise a move very far away from that.
Somebody fuzzes if I say, well, but, you know, we have to work out something.
And then he said, if they don't release the POWs, I'd send troops back in.
Now there is a really stupid move.
Take them all out on faith, and then if they don't do it, you're going to start the war over again.
How would you get back in?
That's the point.
Wow.
Practical military aspects of that are beyond comprehension.
Are you going to come in?
Yeah.
Whose invitation is going to kick you out?
So he's going to come in and attack that whole damn country?
Boy.
Well, he wouldn't go back in.
It's the fact that I heard he looks at the O.W.
and says it's too bad.
We pulled out and they turned over, saw the O.W.
and they probably went back to the O.W.
and said they had no reason to keep him anymore.
So he figures that.
I'm concerned about the median thing.
But our old people, in the meantime, will be having a drum fire setting the other thing on fire.
They can get hurt.
I've been here a dozen.
It's getting out now.
Like, one thing, too, you've got a few of your figures, and we've got a, an awful lot of people, if you take a, well, a lot of people have heard, have made up their mind, you know, and they're going to change that.
That's one thing that does happen.
I have a feeling that you could, that's, we can't, let's just set it with the, you know,
Oh, Henry, we were looking over what was the schedule on this year, and I am wondering about it.
I have a reaction to the negative on it.
The people representing the three oldest countries, republics,
want to come in.
My own view is that, uh, let's just send the Russians right up the wall.
50th anniversary.
Well, what I thought I just had asked you, sir.
But I think if I do, I think it's just that there's dysfunctional in front of the Russians.
Particularly with the Lithuanians having just had a hell of a fight.
I don't, I think we can do them without the city.
All right.
Fine, fine.
Well, we've got bigger games to play.
Bigger games to play.
We'll play them.
Good.
Good, good.
One other thing I wanted to tell you, if you felt, I mean, I didn't know what you were going to do, but if you wanted, you're welcome to come to Camp David.
You know, it's cooler up here.
It's much nicer.
It's much nicer if you want to come.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
Bye, Henry.
Okay.
Thank you.
Quite a guy.
He sure is.
Did you get the vice president thing on time, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
.
.
.
.
.
Eddie Kennedy, of course, would be there to pick up the pieces, but if McGovern were to be bad enough, he wouldn't have a hell of a lot to pick up.
I said, what we really got to do is to take a look at the two parties on the verge and see whether the Democratic Party could be saved, you know, so far, whether the better room is to see the other.
I mean, I, he got the implications, too, because I really, really feel this way.
If the race, if Conway decided to stay a Democrat,
and rest of his party from the goddamn government.
And Percy will not be able to get public advice for a company.
Because I don't have any questions.
And Percy won't be able to get public advice for a company.
I don't know.
Unless you back him.
I don't know either day.
There's no question.
There ought to be eight guys that you're sitting here trying to decide which one of these would be a little bit better than the other seven.
No, Senators.
Come on.
You saw Wilson's list of people out there.
You know, I mean, not Wilson's, but the board's list of people are absolutely Wilson.
God Almighty.
We just don't know anything.
You're trying to able young guys in the House.
Yeah.
who I hope will rise up in the House, and they don't look now like they're presidents, but maybe one or two of them might be in the Senate.
In the Senate, maybe you've got Brock.
Brock.
Baker.
Baker has the stuff, but he just doesn't have the character I'm afraid of.
Brock Lex, the student.
Excuse me.
could fall into it.
Brock is a guy that could be a vice president and then build something.
But he wouldn't be a good president.
Very good president, I don't think.
All those Atlantic guys, the guys that look like they have service of mystique and all, is that they don't have any steel behind them.
Light runs out.
And I think Steiger and Fry
Kemp and some of the rest of those like that in the house are good men.
They look good and they are articulate and they think well.
They're sound.
They do have some charisma and all that, but none of them has really the drive to be in it.
That's the astonishing thing, that there isn't a guy in that whole place that's really pushing you.
You know, curiously enough, the group that we have, we have one of the ablest guys.
McGregor, if he develops administrative ability, could go a hell of a long way.
He's a very, very attractive guy.
He's got a lot of money, an enormous drive, and ambition, and intelligence.
I would discount him as Attorney General.
Why go on?
Not at all.
That's what he wants.
To be a pretty big camera officer.
Basically, he's a team player.
A loyalist.
And that's why he's the captain.
said he had a two-hour session with Romney today.
Which, as he put it, is not his ideal way of spending a Saturday morning.
And the upshot of that is that Romney wants to resign now or stay until March of next year.
He's perfectly happy to do either one, but feels that
to launch this big crusade of his.
He's got to do it.
He can't just leave with the herd in the fall after the election, before the inauguration.
He's either got to go now on his own, or he's got to ride through the changeover and then go as soon as it's over.
And he's also got his housing program or whatever it is that he's got to hang through into this opening of the next session of Congress or something.
I said, I asked John if he thought he was making a pitch to stay on, and John said, no, he's absolutely convinced he's not.
But that he is making a pitch not to just go out with the crowd, that he wants to stand out, be smart enough to let me go.
Well, he knows he's going to go.
He has no question about that.
But he doesn't want to look like he's dumped.
And John says you get, he said, don't know, but I mean, you know, he wants to try.
John's view is that he's sitting on top of this housing scheme to stop all of it.
We need you all to sit on top of it.
And as the potential scapegoat of it, he doesn't sit on top of it.
And what is the housing scheme?
I don't know.
There's something all screwed up.
I don't think there's anything we've done wrong with this.
Well, they can commit to marches and make all that much difference.
What would you do though?
He could do that, but we'd have to appoint as an undersecretary.
We'd have to have a chance to get a good guy in a tandem and to work on the budget.
But we're not going to.
We're not going to have Romney.
I can't have Romney screwing up the housing budget account.
You've got to put it this way.
You can do it, provided that we do the right thing.
John made the point that it's not so much the Romney question, but that at some point we ought to be thinking about
how you do work the transition, whether you ask, you know, you try to move everybody out within the week after the election, or whether you try to, no, but you can get them all out and replace before the inauguration, and it seems to me that's what you want to do.
Well, your new cabinet has to be done before the inauguration, that's true.
And John said the same is true of the White House staff and some of your, you know, key agency people.
This is just the cabinet, it's the sub-cabinet.
your own staff and all that, that we ought to have a plan as to what we do.
If I can only get anybody spending much time thinking about that, that's my problem.
It seems to me we've got plenty of time to work that out.
We're not going to lose anything by not having it worked out before the election.
What we need to do is to just tackle it immediately after the election and then go on and all out basically.
We've done it before.
Look, if we could do it right after the election, we didn't know our ass in verse 68, and set up a whole cabinet, we can sure do it now.
And we had no facilities then.
No facilities.
Now we know exactly how to operate the thing, and we just do it.
And we've got things in place.
If we can't get something changed now, or if we can't get a new secretary for something, we don't really care.
And you can let her run without a secretary for a while.
The guy can leave, or you can ask the guy to stay home until March or June or something.
We would love to start working on that area, but I just don't think that's good.
I would tell John there should be no work done on the goddamn transition and all that stuff.
Also, that's bad for politics.
very, very bad to be thinking about after the election.
And I never did like that even before.
Either way, that's dewey-eyed.
Well, the other thing is Frank Lincoln now is writing Rose, and he wants to start working with us on preparation of transition books and all that sort of thing.
So that if...
There is a change, and the administration will have as orderly a transition as the last one.
To what?
To the others?
Yeah.
What a crazy bastard.
What the hell's he thinking?
I just can't conceive of our lifting one finger to be ready for an orderly transition.
As soon as you do that, the word will be out.
We have to do a goddamn lot of the transition.
Absolutely.
This is the election now with the transition.
We have to realize.
Johnson, he argues Johnson did that, but Johnson knew he had to do it because he was going to have a transition.
It wasn't either to Humphrey or to you.
We had to go on the assumption that it was going to be a transition.
That is so stupid.
I never even heard of it.
Just wait a minute.
But tell John, I want all of that talk cashiered right away.
There's no transition talk.
Nothing.
And nobody's to work on it.
Nobody's to think about it.
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
What we do is that day after the election, you call a cabinet in, or we figure out the way we do it, but we just say we'd like everybody to resign.
All of us, the staff, everybody else.
Get the word out, and they're all to submit their resignations at the president's pleasure.
effective, upon acceptance.
What we could do is to have the fellow, have Roger sort of take the lead on that and say, I think that's what we all ought to do.
Well, let him do it on that.
Let me do it on the staff.
Then we just start with the green slate.
Run through.
Then you go back and ask the people you want to stay.
Well, can you imagine if we start out to the departments?
See, he wants the departments to make up those books now.
Now that, you could argue, you're going to do because you're going to get a new secretary in there.
But I still think the psychology of that, starting to do that, is absurd.
Of course, Lincoln is thinking only in the routine terms of what he wants to do.
Screw it.
We're not going to even listen to it.
Now, there'll be that damned outfit, you know, with brickings they always wear to Trump.
They ain't going to cut you this time.
I wouldn't have those bastards around ever again.
You know?
There's that issue.
Yeah.
Hey.
Oh, sir.
In the first place, there can't be an orderly transition from you to McGovern.
If you should, there's no such thing as an orderly transition because you're going on, the country will be turning 180 degrees.
That's right.
And the government won't want money.
It's quite true what you're saying, that this is the greatest single choice in a century.
No question about it.
No question about it.
And for that reason, too, that there's no need to debate.
Right.
What the hell?
What the hell is your debate?
The issues are clear.
No need to...
There's nothing to debate on them because you don't...
It is no matter of disagreement on means, but agreement on ends.
It's a matter of going two different directions.
And that you can't debate.
That's like debating religion.
You can't debate religion.
We have a different religion.
It's a matter of faith.
It's a very good point.
It's a matter of what you believe.
You notice an interesting thing in that little piece.
Yeah, that was interesting.
He became disenchanted, disaffected with the rigidity of the Methodist minister.
Just so that no, it doesn't cancel, it just makes it cancel.
Well, you never know.
I'll tell you one thing, though, looking at this election, thank God that Kennedy is still in that ticket.
He can't help it without a question about five months in the polls right now.
Don't you agree?
And it would have helped him a lot more behind the scenes than the polls would indicate.
Or he wouldn't have had everybody left deserted.
You'd have the Southerners deserved, but you wouldn't have had the Northerners.
All those Catholics would have stayed with it.
We would have still, possible exception if that's it, we still would have struck the sound.
We would still hold the sound, it's not like we had a hell of a fight.
But you know, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois.
What does New York show now in our polls?
We finally get that.
What does New York show in our polls?
No, we didn't.
We were supposed to have it in the art house.
But it was Pennsylvania.
We've got Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, California, Michigan.
We have all the key states except one other.
There was one other in Wisconsin.
New Jersey.
Maybe New Jersey.
What are we going to do with regard to this poll?
The purpose of this, if I understand, was to take it before the convention for some reason.
See how much the convention did or something.
No.
The purpose, they set up a polling plant way back last year that called for a major national poll in January.
one in June, or whenever it was, June.
It was just before the, one in January, the debates, one in June, to make major trends and to set the base, the pre-convention base, and then one in September, I think it was early September, that we get back quickly.
And then they're set up for telephone follow-up in the key states.
And each of these polls is an individual state poll, and they can break it down by details in that state.
And that's what they're working on.
And just to give them some guidance now.
Because a lot of that stuff isn't going to change a lot.
I'm not sure.
I think it's like right after Labor Day or maybe right before.
But I think it's right after.
How long?
I guess they'd have a back in time for the final month of the campaign.
And then they have the telephone updating them to see if it stays valid or not.
I'm not sure what the better thing here is for the ORC.
Let's be damn sure we poll the major states.
Poll nationally, of course, now.
But what I'm getting at, Bob, is that we've got to know what the hell is going on.
I want to mar up the date in that moment.
The polls have just kind of pulled us too much of a line.
Three weeks have just taken.
That's right.
And that's a hell of a long time.
So I'm not sure it's that valuable.
Well, it is as far as just the trial teams are concerned.
Where it is is in the breakdowns, because you've got enough stuff that you can look at what's shifting, where people are moving, whether there's a trend or whether there's a blip.
But at least we've got to know, forgetting where the people are shifting.
We've got to know what's happening in these states.
See, they use it for the stuff like where to send a direct mail, what areas to work on precinct stuff.
And they can relay it all to their computerized list.
What are we going to do about getting
We've got this poll now.
We've taken this.
Our poll, this little poll, tells us anything except that it confirms what we would have thought, which is that it helps with the issues.
It gives us a little idea that McGovern, as we would think, is in a bad shape on those positions he's got.
We've got him at home.
That confirms that strategy.
Those are bad positions for him.
Therefore, we've got to make sure he's on them.
That's correct.
It also confirms that he didn't gain anything out of this convention.
Gallivan Harris also took the sack.
And that is a tough thing for him.
He lost one opportunity to gain, that's for sure.
That's right.
He lost one opportunity to gain.
Humphrey didn't gain anything either.
Yeah, a little.
A little.
Even though after his convention, Humphrey had a reason for not gaining, which is his convention.
But my point is, though, that Humphrey, even that even, nevertheless, did gain a little.
Gained a little, yeah.
Gained a little because the big gain, I hadn't realized, was after our convention.
We were way out there then.
And Humphrey picked up a little, not much, I think it was much.
And frankly, it really kept on going.
Your convention really set you up.
It was when it confirmed that you were back and for real.
And your acceptance speech put you back on a pedestal that you weren't on.
And the health primaries didn't put you on that.
But it reached, well, what the acceptance did, Bob, was to reach over the media to the people.
And that, it was like a televised speech or press conference.
That's exactly what that damn thing did.
And we really had nothing else in the campaign that did that.
It reached over the heads of the people.
Correct?
Sure.
Well, on a national basis, on a massive basis, I don't know.
But, you know, we, I mean, well, you're right.
We tried to get a little bit of television stuff.
But we have to realize, we all know, we all know, we had our local line of talk on it, but their audiences weren't going to be at any number.
And we also remember that otherwise we were doing speeches, we were doing speeches, the radio talks didn't reach many people, you know what I mean?
And we were doing speeches, and they were getting chopped up in the news when motorcades, you see what I mean?
Now, what we want to do, if this is going to be an issue campaign,
is to find ways to get to that damn television audience.
That's why if we can use, if we can use that televised, I don't know, televised press conference, I don't know whether that's, you can't tell, they may get so militant, but at the time, it may be a loser.
Well, I'm not so sure, and I also, if this is an issue campaign, and if we're right on the issues, then I'm not so sure you don't want to even let McGovern get equal to him.
Except you're going to use it to get well.
So that's the problem.
Well, the reason that I don't want him to get equal confidence is that if he gets well, I think, and I may be wrong, but I think he, in other words, people say he's cool.
He's reasonable.
He gets well.
See?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And well, anything that elevates him to presidential level is bad for us.
I was horrified.
The Secret Service, I assumed, or maybe the Defense Department, when he returned from the Miami Convention, they landed him at Andrews Air Force Base.
And that's a hell of a goddamn thing.
They never let me land there.
Of course not.
And we instantly, through the Secret Service, because I figured that's where the difference is.
is not to use Air Force Base facilities.
He's not the president of the United States.
He's a senator and a candidate.
But he was in a chartered plane.
Yeah, but honey at Andrews?
What's the Christ they need?
The Secret Service, in their protective deal, has the right to request Defense Department facilities for security reasons.
But that's a lot of bullshit.
They had the right when you were the candidate, too, four years ago.
Yeah, and they never landed you there.
Well, and they killed a candidate just before I ran.
They had the shot.
You know what I mean?
I remember people were goddamn scared in the Bobby Kennedy thing.
But that doesn't make any difference.
I mean, he just doesn't...
They can land at the page terminal.
They can park his plane out at the end of the ramp, but they're worried about security stuff and get him off into a car.
But they should not land...
They are treating him exactly as I was treated.
Just as we're treating him that way on the...
of the briefing.
And just be damn tough on that score.
Absolutely.
Because there's no points to be gained from giving him that.
All that does is give him a little prestige of using Andrews Air Force Base and all that.
But he shouldn't get any.
No other senator comes in to Andrews.
Of course not.
Your service, so-called, and the...
They love to order up all that stuff.
They'll order everything they can get.
But they're not going to do it, Tom.
Incidentally, that's one thing we're going to change.
Who the hell's head?
Rowley?
He's not bad, but he's just not in it.
We can change him, Captain.
Yeah, we should.
The problem is we have not had an idea who we wanted to put in.
I think that really is the man.
Bobby is helpful.
He doesn't look like it, but we have a guy who really is.
We've been running some tests and it's worked out.
Also, Pac-5s.
The other kind of a villain.
And boy, he is, he tracks.
He's the one guy in all this investigative area that we've been able to trust.
And he's done what we've told him to do.
In fact, Gray hasn't stood up.
We have to change there.
I think you've got to change climbing instead.
I don't think he's stood up.
He wasn't changed anyways.
I remember he said he can't afford to stay, and I think we'll just say that I went and bought blood and died for him, and he's been recognized and so forth.
He may have a jury general, which helps his
Income, income, $100,000 a year, $200,000 a year.
He's a very unimpressive guy, but he's not as dumb as he looks.
He's slow.
They really are.
Taylor wants to leave, which is good.
He's a nice guy.
He's very quick.
How do you know something's gone wrong with him since his kid died?
Anything to do with the Watergate thing that you have?
I don't know yet about Howell and Magruder, but they asked him about it.
The lawyers said that he did extremely well.
There's no problem.
We don't have the interrogation report, but the lawyers said he did extremely well.
Is he going before the Grand Jury?
I don't think so, no.
What the hell is the Grand Jury going to do then?
They're going to keep, keep, keep, keep investigating.
Is that the only point it looks like they're going to go?
As far as I'm concerned, that's the best of both worlds, what they're doing.
They're going to go after the election.
When they can, that's great.
or just get them indicted now and get them out, but I'm not really sure that's the best answer.
That's the best answer if you accept as inevitable that you're going to get indictments and that you have to get them before the election.
Yeah.
But better yet, it's to have nothing happen.
Well, there's a reasonable chance that ain't nothing happening.
Just let it go.
Dean is talking a little.
He's talking about this.
It's nice to hear.
Is there argument in me, and my person, and to Mitchell, and the two lawyers, and Peterson, and Justice, and Greg, yeah.
If you feel that the Bureau, we ought to put a Bureau of Man in here somewhere.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Oh, it's Greg Feldman that's pushing him, or is that his name?
Feldman.
Feldman.
Yeah.
He's pushing him.
He's trying to be our boy, obviously.
Well, he is our boy.
You know, I want him as our boy.
I don't want to screw around on that score.
But you see, if you take him out of the Bureau, it's very hard for anybody to miss him.
We ought to throw some tests and probably we could put some real sticky wickers to him and see how he bounces.
It's what they've been doing with Bob.
Yeah.
surprised me.
I didn't, I didn't, well, Bob's just any great straight and simple.
Where the hell does he work?
I've never seen him around.
He's, he's in the headquarters of the Secret Service.
He's the deputy director or something like that.
He's not on it.
Yeah.
Is he ahead of Duncan?
Oh, yeah.
He's over in Florida.
Way ahead of Duncan.
He's just fine on our detail.
He's just awful sticky, but he does what
He's told, you know what I mean?
You know, he's straight and he looks good.
And he's quicker than I do than Taylor.
Taylor, I think, is awfully slow.
Now, Bill will cooperate.
Bill is... Well, basically, Bill is political.
He's dominant.
He wants to win.
I think most of them are.
They want to screw the other side.
I don't suppose there's any way we...
We've got a new line, but McGovern can't do their secret service.
No, we don't.
We can't obviously try.
We sure ought to try, but I don't know how to do it.
We've got several of our... We've got some potentials.
Including the head of the Z-tank.
But to my knowledge, we're not using them.
And I'm not so sure we should.
If we got caught at that, that would hold them.
I just meant if somebody volunteered, you know, they sometimes volunteer.
Yeah.
If somebody volunteered.
Although I don't think about they're going to have that, that's going to be, it is Mike Kennedy.
No, I don't know.
I think he's fully capable of any,
You mean any of that?
Yeah.
And he's studied under the Kennedys.
So he knows.
Well, I think O'Brien is too.
Yeah, but I don't think O'Brien is a...
They're having a big strategy meeting this weekend in South Dakota with the Kennedy.
He's back in South Dakota.
Kennedy is, yeah.
Yeah.
That Westwood, Dane, and a bunch of other people, plus the black, you know, what's his name, Fonroy, the delegate.
District?
Yeah.
A bunch of other people like that have all gone out for the strategy meeting, but Larry O'Brien hasn't been asked.
The campaign chairman isn't going to be there.
They can put that out.
Yeah.
Well, they didn't put out that he wasn't going to be there, but somebody checked and found out he wasn't going to be there.
And then...
I guess Jean Westwood did say something about how she was going after O'Brien, wasn't she?
She made another crack.
She said the old pros or the old Pauls in the Democratic Party can talk to Larry O'Brien if they want to, but they're going to have to get used to George McGovern.
That surprises me.
I thought he had this deal with Hughes and some of these other things.
Those things never seem to pan out.
O'Brien is a hell of an intelligent man.
He handled that convention goddamn well.
Yeah, he did.
If I had watched that convention and I were a businessman, I'd hire him in a minute.
God, when I think of the partners in our law firm, he's head and shoulders above half of them.
Yeah.
You know, really.
Yeah.
He's a top shrewd.
I don't see how he gets his national visibility money.
That he couldn't get a... That's a funny thing.
At the very worst, he could get one of those $150,000 a year jobs as head of the Air Transport Association or, you know...
Sloppy money that I know he wouldn't raise it.
In setting up the budget and so forth, is Colson aware of the fact that companies should be paid...
No, he's got to be paid.
You know what I mean?
Conley is very sensitive about money.
He said he lost a hell of a lot of money.
I don't know that he'll want to be paid.
Well, he ought to have.
He's got a cash problem.
We've got to take care of all of his expenses.
And they are.
And you're setting him up a very nice suite.
But shouldn't they just give a, so that he doesn't have to make up expense accounts or so forth?
I think it's better, I think it's better to give him a, shall we call it this way, just a non-accountable expense account.
What do you think?
You know, a fellow like Conway's going to have to tell him to charge all of his alcohol, right?
Well, what I mean is,
all of his eating and everything.
We should just take care of his family expenses and everything.
You see what I mean?
And call it campaign expenses.
Because it's hard to separate the two.
The county's gonna give his time and you see he isn't the kind that's gonna ask.
And Colson should just insist.
Tell him that I insist.
Yeah, be done.
I should agree.
And then he could just say, well my expenses are being taken care of.
But I want it done in a very healthy way.
Very healthy way.
There's ways it can be done.
And I'm saying there's so much to handle in the campaign.
Just say expenses of the general.
And I'm, oh, sure, there's no problem.
Well, I mean, reporting and so forth.
Extending, penalizing.
We've all done that, gentlemen.
It is really something that we have to be changing.
We have to be changing.
It must be hard for them too.
Sure it is, except they don't have the money, so they don't have the problems.
They must be a bunch of goddamn lousy fanatics.
You know, really.
We can talk to them.
The Goldwater people are bad enough now.
It's not to have no doubts.
You know, the Birchers and the others who were with them rode awful hard.
They rode hard.
You remember them.
You remember them in California.
They didn't want any of the bar people around.
These people, it's power.
These people are worse.
Yeah, you remember the Cold War people wouldn't let our people in to help in scheduling or they didn't have any advancement or didn't know anything about any of that stuff since before.
Didn't want anybody except one or two.
My point is, that's bullshit, of course.
He should be paid by the government.
Absolutely.
These are non-political.
And even in political events, we are public figures.
That's right.
Huh?
Absolutely.
Has there ever been any question raised on that?
No.
Nobody but Claire Crawford has raised a question.
That was that article I ran a month ago that had that all upset then.
Okay.
I just wanted to... She asked a question about CODIS, and I said, well, don't worry about that.
But he's paid by the government, too?
I said he'd be paid, but the question is, all campaign expenditures are paid for, otherwise the CODIS should be paid by the government.
After all, there's nothing to stop that at all.
We're doing nothing illegal.
Compared to what Johnson and Humphrey and all those people did, we just lean over backwards.
I think we're too far.
I guess it's good.
Well, I know we do.
I know you do.
We'll put on all these things.
Not letting hashed people do anything political.
But non-hashed people are perfectly free to do political work.
And the law specifically permits them to.
That's right.
And that's part of it.
Sure thing.
I'm paid by the government.
Chuck Colson's paid by the government.
Of course.
You asked, as I got close to that, that he was the guy who launched that, that Krypton strikes thing.
Unfortunately, he, after the session, before the session with the Teamsters, he called Hudson and said, we have to, you have to get to Pacwood and get it low key.
Because we, and he's got to hold up on it for a few days.
So Hudson did.
That was okay.
Then after the meeting with the Teamsters, in your place, on my behalf.
I called Hudson that night and said, you've got to get to Packwood and tell him to kill it completely.
So Hudson sent Silverman and said to Packwood to kill it completely.
So that's what happened.
He was over-zealous.
He was in a cross-wire situation.
He was over-zealous.
I talked to George Schultz about it myself, to be sure.
I didn't take it from George.
I said, I can't do that.
I asked George, and George said, yes, he says this provision is one that really has to be done.
And I can't get it through.
That was correct.
We can't get it through.
And he said, I think we should withdraw, and we should draw back and try to work something else out.
And I said, fine, go ahead.
But what the hell did Colson do that for?
Apparently, he read your comments to the teamsters.
He knew beforehand what the teamsters wanted.
And then he knew, you know, set it up.
And you said earlier, I said, we're looking into it.
I said, we're looking into it.
I said, you're not always looking into it.
We're looking into it.
That's all I told the teachers.
On the basis of that, the chair said, well, now we've got the teachers and we've got to turn it on.
So it was, in Hodgson's mind, it was a clear deal.
He was told by Colson to make the deal.
He took Colson on the other side.
So he did.
We don't want to get you hung up, get you countered with labor for no reason.
So we want you to, we'll let you off the hook and you will go.
I'm trying to read for him.
George Shultz was going to go up to see him.
I don't know whether he heard him.
I'm trying to call him again.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
I'm trying to talk to him.
You've got to watch it, Coles.
You've got to watch it, Chuck, all the time.
You've got to watch it.
You've got to watch it in another way with him.
He's likely to take something and ram too hard on it, but you don't have to ram hard, you know what I mean?
That's right.
And on this one, there was no need to do that.
The team didn't expect us to do anything that way.
They just didn't want, you know, at this point, they just didn't want the bad thing.
There are other ways.
Just like we're doing it.
Well, that's right.
Now what the hell?
Well, that's where the early one is a damn good operator.
He can handle it.
He is awfully good at opposing things and getting them mixed up and keeping them mixed up.
And Chuck is not.
Chuck is a sledgehammer.
Right.
Drive ahead of time.
Which is great.
I mean, he's done a great job.
He did good.
Well, we just have to.
It's one of those things that happens.
Hudson was not keen on the thing anyway.
He was not for the location.
So he was delighted because Jones told me that Hudson felt that it was also that we had to do something.
Right.
So Hudson was not doing something he didn't want to do.
No.
It was something he wanted.
Sure, Hudson.
Just on Hodgson's question or something like that.
Even being told by Colson to turn it off.
It could have been done.
Hodgson could have had a little bit more confidence.
Why do you think he did it?
I don't know.
Turn could be... Hodgson may have read Colson as being, you know, get it up there and get it turned off tonight.
Don't let Packwood go out tomorrow and say anything about his four crippling strikes.
There's no hope now, though.
And they were pushing for it apparently.
There was some maneuvering going on.
There again, Colson couldn't talk to him until Carl Augustine wanted him found.
He said, there's no way that a vote could come up without Mansfield putting the goddamn thing on the schedule.
Mansfield would never put that on the schedule because he's a railroad man.
But Chuck overworked.
See, he probably didn't want any word to get out to the teachers.
In fact, what they're still pushing that there's something.
In fact, what he was doing there.
Reagan is a very good speaker and very persuasive and so forth.
But after you've known him a while, he's a bore.
You agree?
Absolutely.
He is a bore.
I swear to God.
Oh, he is.
He drove me nuts when I was down in California because he won all that university stuff.
It's the same kind of thing.
He had his standard things.
He said them over and over.
He might really be doing him a favor, though, in the point where he had an ambassador undead, right?
He could be governor.
Yeah.
He could handle it.
Yeah.
Bob doesn't think so.
I think Radcliffe's a lot smarter than Bob realizes.
Right.
He's a lot tougher.
He is tougher.
He's running.
He is over-smart.
But he's not dumb.
Ed's got a perfectly adequate... Have you ever... You didn't consider Warren very bright.
Warren wasn't bright, but he was considered to be a very good governor.
Well, Pat Brown was bright at all.
No, Reineke is a pretty good operator.
He moves hard.
He knows what he's doing.
He thinks things out.
He's not dumb at all.
Bob worries about the polls.
From a practical basis, he's probably smarter than Bob.
From a theoretical basis, he's trying.
Bob worries about the polls between him and Cranston.
They're going to show him way behind Cranston.
But God damn it, he can beat Cranston.
If we beat McGovern, he can beat Cranston.
That's what I think.
Because Cranston is a McGovern guy.
And we can build Bob up.
That's one word, that's great.
We'd be doing a good thing if you could get Bob into the Senate.
Once he's in, he'd never get out.
They'd never, nobody would be here.
Ever.
Once he was an incumbent.
Senator, 50, if you put 20 years in there, he'd love it.
24 years.
He'd love it.
You know, then it doesn't make you the run of Senate officers.
Then a hard-working senator is going to run their office.
They don't have to.
Just get a good AA.
Get a good AA that answers the mail.
And Bob would be great at that.
Bob Maneuver on the floor.
He'd be out there putting things together.
He's great at putting things together, you know, conspiracies and pitfalls.
And Bob could move pretty fast.
He would have a chance of becoming majority leader.
I'm sorry, sir.
You know, he could because he's the only one who's got 71.
And Griffin is basically, he may be leader, but he's so pedantic that I don't think he's applauding that he's much for a leader.
Baker's in some ways got a flaw, I don't know why.
But you know, there aren't many there.
Percy will want to be leader, but he can never get the lefts and the rights.
He's furious at a man so selfish as that.
He feels he's entitled to it.
I mean, of course he had never done anything for anybody else that was different, but he has.
Did he get to see Packwood or not?
Did he try?
I don't know.
It was not limited to the teachers, you know.
Mainly discussed it with, very definitely with Schultz.
So Schultz was, sometime before that, he was serving at one of those early meetings.
Right.
And so Schultz said he talked about the thing with being an example.
He felt that music worked something out.
Careful on things like that.
One thing we've done on the colony that's very important.
Yeah.
I think he's got the right relationship with Conley.
But he must keep watching.
Because Chuck gets a bit in his teeth.
We've got to pull him out of it.
The key thing is to get him out of it in the first place.
We don't want him there on a continuing basis.
We need him for his own project.
Get him out of there so that
Conley's got George Christian.
And Colson Cruz would get out and just beat names over it.
That's right.
And not run it.
And beat names over it.
Christian could stay out there.
The ideal thing would be for Christian to set it up and try to get out of it pretty much after this weekend.
Push hard and get him out of it fast.
Yeah.
That was the whole basis just for the week or two that
The way you put it, Chuck, is that we just need to get back in there.
We've got to develop this strategy.
We've got to govern.
And right now, for example, you see, take on a matter of the Hamlin and the Wallace thing.
That's a very elegant matter, but knowing Connelly's sensitivities, if we kept battling in that thing, Mitchell battling and everybody else battling,
and the road and all the rest.
Conley was left.
He will not do a thing unless he does it himself.
He knows it's his deal.
Yes, sir.
I'll be sure to pull everybody else off.
We have all week, though.
Like, Billy Graham was talking about it.
I asked him if he would please keep John Conley posted.
He didn't.
He called me, but he called Conley first.
and he just couldn't can't possibly let people use him
to help a son of a bitch like McGovern.
The only danger is his being misguided by people convincing him that he isn't helping McGovern, that he's helping you.
Or that he's helping himself within the Democratic Party or something like that, which he wouldn't if he heard himself.
Yeah.
It's cool, that's my thought.
Connelly will decide when he's gonna go see him, and he'll do it.
That stuff, you know, it's amazing when he goes, when he does it, when he's ready, in his way.
Colson, if you see him, is a great, great fellow in different things, but what Colson lacks that any top television has
It's a sense of timing.
It's the timing sense.
He knows that there's a goal and he goes after it.
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
Now what you... That's fine.
But there are certain things that are very subtle.
And you've just got to be... You just don't feel it at the right time.
And you don't know it then.
Conley knows this.
I don't.
But it's timing, subtlety, and finesse.
All three.
But they all tie together.
It's all basically the same thing.
If you notice the weight, it's sort of an example of it.
I know if you and John were kind of wondering why I didn't do it differently, but when the N.A.
took him there the other day, I mean, I could have brought him in and says,
Ted, I've decided that we shall leave the candidate for Vice President.
I think he did exactly the stupid way to do it.
I mean, to make a big damn pronouncement on it.
I just did it all.
I was thinking about how we ought to handle this thing.
Because you didn't literally cover it with him anyway.
I didn't want to have some damn, you know, sort of a, well, Mr. President, I'll be honored and all that stuff.
And, uh...
and let's talk about how we're going to do it.
That way, we got him in a position where we were able to discuss all the points we wanted to get into in a sort of a low-key way.
Well, I put the whole meeting in terms of a working session to get some deals worked out rather than an annoying one.
You're trying to handle it in a very delicate manner and dull and very difficult.
I talked to Clark about that this morning, and I didn't do it directly, because I did hit him directly on a couple, I wanted to get over these quotes of his about the
Yeah, that one thing about Democrats.
Yeah, well, I mentioned that at the breakfast.
And he sort of picked that up.
He says, I've got the point on that.
He said, I know that.
He said, I know about another one that's probably also concerning, which is the Cook County honest vote, you know, that we'll get an honest count in Chicago.
He said, you probably saw that in the news.
And I said, yeah, I had probably seen it.
He said, well, I don't.
He said, that was one.
He says, my stupidity is I'm making no excuse at all.
But they were talking about what you're doing on boat fraud and stuff.
And I said, we were setting up a major boat fraud effort and all that.
And they said, well, do you expect to get an honest vote in Cook County this time?
And he laughed and said, yeah, I think under the circumstances, we will.
And in that context, he didn't think he had said anything wrong.
But as soon as he saw the paper, he said, he was just sick when he saw it, because he knew it.
It couldn't have been worse.
And he said, that's the risk.
And talking with these people, as I get into it, shows you though how the press, they knew what they were doing.
Of course.
They were trying to job us on that, and they were challenged to deal with us.
Of course.
But then I said, another thing is that Dole, as you probably noticed, he had told me he was going to be talking with Dole, working on some other things.
So one thing you probably noticed is that Dole was not quoted as stating
what the president ought to do and what he thinks the schedule ought to be that's going to be productive because if anybody starts making predictions or statements as to what ought to be done, then we get locked into not being able to do other things or to not do those things without it looking like some big change in the plan or a panic move or something like that.
It'll get distorted.
He said, boy, I understand completely.
He said, I got caught on that one, too.
And he went into it again.
He said, they'd asked me some stuff, and I told them what my personal thinking was on the schedule.
He said, I don't want to do that anymore.
I don't want to talk to Bob about it.
He's so smart.
He sees it.
He does.
And he's honest.
There's nothing offensive about it, either.
That's what's so great.
He doesn't do any bullshit.
He doesn't argue about it or anything else.
He just says, yeah, it's no excuse.
That was my stupidity.
I didn't get it.
And that's how it came out.
I think he is.
And all these things, look, they're going to happen.
Because we don't want to be gunshot.
My idea is that everybody's got to understand, oh, I just can't have governors.
Ask old Reagan, man.
You've got to come out and do the Orange County fundraiser.
There will be all sorts of shit-ass stuff.
Or why doesn't the president go on a nine country, nine county swing or something?
You know, the scheduling.
It's going to be murderous.
A lot of governors or county chairmen, we think it's imperative that the president spend three weeks here in Nevada covering every county.
How many days are you going to give to us?
We want to schedule them and all that sort of stuff.
Well, the point is that Dole has got to get
has got to understand, a very liberal person, scheduling has done all for the White House that I only have to do a broad issue that's related to the presidency.
And that they shouldn't indicate that I was not doing enough or doing too much or doing this.
They won't...
When I... Clark said that right away.
He said, I understand that completely.
He said it's got to be the president's decision.
It's got to be in the White House.
And that whatever it is, it's got to be considered to be right.
Sure.
Because it's otherwise, you know, why isn't the president doing more?
Well, we've got campaign staffers who are concerned that the president's, you know, spending too much time somehow.
They're not about something else.
Well, we've got this situation, you know, we have old hands on right to rows about why the hell do I do this or that or the other thing.
And the OPS are taking this for granted.
This vote has really got a lot of good press.
Jesus Christ, you know, all that obvious bullshit.
Thank God I don't read those letters anymore.
It's hard to be kidnapped by the Cardinals.
Yeah.
A lot of them.
They're all well-meaning.
They're all well-meaning.
I really believe that.
And you'll get all the things.
We certainly hope that the President isn't taking this election for granted.
He's occurred to, but it would be wise to run up a big majority.
Well, it probably is the current climate.
You've got to remember what happened in 1968.
We just go on and on and on.
I mean, I don't realize he had a big week in 68 and he started on point there.
Yeah.
I don't feel a lot of differences.
Or 56, or 60, or 52.
I think it's 32.
I can't.
Well, as we've said, the difference is here.
Right here.
Right here.
Agnew's better this time than he was before.
We've got cabin officers we didn't have before.
We've got some White House staffers that we didn't have before that were nicked in.
We've got a much better campaign spokesman than we had before.
We've got a better national chairman as a spokesman than we had before.
All those things together.
And frankly, we got the office.
We have the office and the ability to make important moves from the office and be able to command others in many ways and be able to scare the hell out of some people.
That's the overriding thing.
The fact that they are with the office, I mean, all the things about it, the ability to make things, the ability to scare people.
You've got all those unions, some that we didn't have in 68, but I don't question that.
You don't have the AFL working and then financing the other side all out.
That's right.
You don't have the teams, you have the teams that are working pretty good.
That's right.
There's a hell of a lot of campaign workers.
That's right.
They've got the union, the union thing is very significant in that respect.
Yeah.
You, the S-68, you didn't have a guy that scared anybody.
Alfred didn't scare even our old people.
Everybody thought, well, he's going to be a terrible president.
He's a boo.
Boo, yeah.
But nobody, you didn't hear people saying, I've got a one-way ticket to Australia on freeway.
Well, you had one other thing in 1960.
And you...
There are very many people, except Lola and Dr. Bray, who really like George McConaughey.
It's a very interesting point.
And looking at 68, you found very few people who disliked Hubert Humphrey.
Nobody.
Really.
None of us.
Everybody liked Hubert.
You can't dislike Hubert Humphrey.
It's almost impossible.
It's one of the reasons.
And Bray, I think, must have been a hell of a lot better candidate than he was.
I mean, he looked at it.
He could have been smarter.
And he'll be more aggressive and he'll move around, kick around.
But Muskie was the darling of the press.
Yeah.
I don't think he could have been the darling of the press.
I think he's going to irritate people.
He's too brash.
He's too brash.
You know, cocky.
I think they're going to have a tough time.
I know.
God, all that stuff.
We have some advantages that have...
Plus, Nixon is viewed in a totally different way.
You have all of the things, all the pluses, and a damn few minuses during this whole thing.
Well, that's all.
Let's think of another thing.
The family was somewhat of an asset, quite an asset.
They worked like hell in 68, you know.
Yeah, but they just had a statue.
But now, all three
are very outstanding personalities in their own right, aren't they?
Absolutely.
I mean, if you take all three of them, if you take that business about Mrs. McGovern this morning, I've seen her become very attractive.
She's a tough, tough lady, though.
She's very tough.
I know the type.
Every hand needs to write about it.
But on the other hand, during this campaign, I'll bet you it'll take for the last two weeks, if she ever is in the campaign, that she will be as much of an attraction as Patricia or Julie is.
That's right.
Would you agree?
Yeah.
And she'll never be as simpatico in attractions, Tricia, to people.
She isn't the likable type.
She looks pretty good.
She's very pretty.
But she's too tough.
She's too...
Her eyes are hostile and all.
That's what I think.
Well, I think she speaks...
All of what they were talking about that was good about her is really bad in a candidate's life.
Or where she disagrees with a candidate.
George shouldn't have said that.
I don't think people want a president whose wife is calling him over to the house to say he signed the wrong bill.
Probably would.
But we have all those things that we haven't thought of.
But you have how you're regarded.
In 68, you were sure you had the reincarnation thing, which was a plus.
I was going for you to come back.
But it was an untried comeback.
It was, you know, Nixon's comeback, but has he really?
Now, you've had four years as president where you, in the remarkable moment, you haven't gone down in the Gallup poll on approval.
Not enough to matter.
And here you... 59, 56.
The first yellow poll was 59.
Okay.
It was taken.
This is 56, of course.
It's about, it's pretty... Yeah.
Considering that you've been here, you've vetoed things and passed things and fought for things and fought against things and all that.
But you've got the memories in people's minds that they'll never forget, from China and Russia, Patricia's wedding.
of you on television handling major problems in a very... With the big television things, those big television things.
For example, let's face it, the damn Vietnam speeches.
They all had their effect.
Each one is remembered.
And, of course, the press conferences have had their effect.
You would have said, and I think you probably did say, after you came into office in 1969, that if Vietnam...
was still around in any way, shape, or form by 72, we wouldn't even bother running.
And yet Vietnam is around.
And oddly enough, it's an issue in your favor, basically.
Coming in at 68, what you figured is you had to have it ended within a year.
You made the case as to why you couldn't do it.
Carry the people around.
Writing.
What's the potential for the future, which in the world, I think, is special.
Now, the one thing we were afraid of, looks like it's not going to be bad, at least.
Maybe it'll be good.
Which is the economy.
It may just hold where it may be pretty fair-shaped at least.
But you can't be in bad shape.
I don't think so.
Too late now.
The pricing.
The pricing.
There's that sort of... Food prices.
That's right.
That's what he said.
He got to do that.
They didn't throw you out because of that one thing.
That's the reason they threw Wilson out because of prices.
They wouldn't put anything else in the truck.
We got a hell of a lot of other things to do now.
Well, plus the British people didn't have the buying power level.
Our people bitch about prices, but it doesn't bother them any.
It doesn't hurt them.
Their real purchasing power is, I'm sure the prices are high, but they can buy more, even so.
I'm sure it's hurt some of them.
It depends on the individual.
But overall, the inflation hasn't hurt them.
They're still better off.
A lot of people.
Anybody that owes money.
Which is a lot of people.
You realize if anybody had a mortgage, it's a hell of a lot better off having it.
Because basically, it's often cheap dollars.
Your money can pay off in cheap money.
All the economic outlook is good, as well as the, I kept saying, what we want is the trend to be going right.
The trend almost has to be going right, yeah.
Time goes on and goes on.
Okay.
Goddamn, I'm covering people, but I'm gonna be done here in four minutes.
If they aren't, they can read Gallup and Harris.
And they have got to be really, I think they've got to shoot wild.
And I think they've got to work their ass off.
Yeah.
I don't know what they're going to do.
And I think that means they're going to have to find the money.
Yeah.
And that's going to be hard.
And that, as you know, that can grade on a candidate.
And that's another interesting point.
He's going to have to do a lot of money raising.
Because a lot of the money is going to say, well, I just want to talk to George and find out if he's really got these nutty ideas or not.
And George is going to have to say, you know, Max, you know, I didn't really mean all of that.
I think it's going to be fine, correct?
And just know how worrying that is to have to sit there by the hour.
Kennedy hates to meet the finance givers because they're so damn dumb.
That's right.
And, you know, they mean about politics.
We've got to sit and talk to them, and they are, they are alive.
And he's going to have to give something away to them.
He won't be able to play.
Well, maybe he will play the right way, which is to tell them to give them nothing.
It's just what he should do.
The Democratic National Committee, the new treasurer, called the committee staff in yesterday and said they'd have to work for two weeks without pay.
They were broke, and he'd be getting some money in, but those who were retained beyond that period would go back on the payroll and return the money he would have paid.
That's probably a good publicity, you know, to play the part of the poor, but I'm not so sure.
He probably had some money problems in the beginning.
Do you remember?
He went to New York and raised that five million bucks or whatever it was.
The Jews put it up.
The Jews?
Yeah.
Well, he's not going to get that kind of Jewish money this time.
No, because that's the big Jewish money.
That's another one.
That's a factor that's different.
The big thing of it, the factor that's different this year for us, is not the Jewish vote, but the Jewish money.
The Jewish power.
The Jewish money.
Some of it can be dried up.
It'll be denied the Democrats.
The same is true of the labor vote.
The Republicans are out to raise money.
And they...
They've spent all the money.
They don't go in with any money now.
Truman did a campaign virtually without money.
Running around in his train.
Yeah, but he was president.
Yeah, I wanted to.
Damn right.
Wouldn't bother me if we didn't have a nickel.
Wouldn't bother me if we could run a campaign right now without telling where he stands to tell us the true result of it.
If you wanted to.
Don't need a nickel.
Well, travel, I guess, is political travel.
Call it non-political.
Just brazen it out.
Yeah, you could do that.
Make all your transcoded defense bases.
Regional meetings of your giveaway programs.
I'm sorry.
Camden.
Taking it to the country.
All of it must have done a little good.
A little drops here and there.
If you couldn't be more right, then in the public mind, more than any arrest law.
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Okay, very good.
One thing, if you've got any of those tapes, Pat McKee is up here so she can...
I don't think I'll have anything.
I'm just dictating stuff for the file at the moment.
Okay.
If I do have something, I'll let you know.
Okay.