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Conversation: 225-039

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Start Date: 16-Nov-1972 2:23 PM

End Date: 16-Nov-1972 3:45 PM

Participants:

Nixon, Richard M. (President)Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob")Ehrlichman, John D.

Recording Device: Camp David Hard Wire

225-039a.mp3

225-039b.mp3

NARA Description:

On November 16, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:23 pm and 3:45 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 225-039 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid:

Conversation No. 225-39

Date: November 16, 1972
Time: Unknown between 2:23 pm - 3:45 pm
Location: Camp David Hard Wire

The President met with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and John D. Ehrlichman.
                                     -24-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                     Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)


Second term reorganization
     -William P. Rogers tenure as Secretary of State
           -Haldeman’s forthcoming conversation with Rodgers
                 -Plans
                       -National Security
                       -The President's decision
                             -Changes in personnel
                                    -Time served in Cabinet
                                    -Leadership
                                    -George W. Romney
                                    -John A. Volpe
                                    -Peter G. Peterson
                 -Departures
                       -Roger’s career
                       -Other Cabinet changes
                       -Rogers C. B. Morton
                       -Earl L. Butz
                       -Richard G. Kleindienst
                       -George P. Shultz
                       -Tenures
                             -Length
                                    -Shultz
                                    -Kleindienst
                                    -Butz
                       -Peterson
                       -Retentions
                             -Justice Department
                             -Butz
                                    -Natural resources
                             -Schultz
                                    -Economics
                       -The President’s forthcoming conversation with Rogers
                       -Morton
                 -Review of reorganization
                       -Confidentiality
                             -Melvin R. Laird
                 -Successor to Rogers
                       -The President’s forthcoming conversation with Rogers
                       -[David] Kenneth Rush
                                     -25-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                    Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

                      -Nelson A. Rockefeller
                      -John B. Connally
                      -Work with Rogers
                      -Rush
                      -Continuity
           -The President’s forthcoming conversation with Rogers
                -Rogers’s career
                      -Vietnam
                             -Settlement agreement
                      -Length in office
                      -Middle East
                      -Review of career
                -Departure
                      -Leadership
                      -The President’s personal interest
                      -Persuasion
                -Work with Henry A. Kissinger
                -Vietnam
                      -Settlement agreement
                      -Credit
                -Haldeman’s forthcoming conversation with Rogers
                      -The President’s forthcoming conversation with Rogers
                      -Chart
                      -The President’s deliberation
                      -Replacement
                             -Connally
                             -Rockefeller
                             -Continuity
                             -Rush
                             -Conditions

Norman Chandler
    -Health
    -The President's recent phone call
          -Note

Second term reorganization
     -Peter M. Flanigan
           -Retention
                 -Treasury Department
                                         -26-

                NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                  Tape Subject Log
                                    (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                            Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

                      -White House
                      -[Connally’s] view
                            -State Department
                            -Treasury Department
                      -[Confirmation] problem
          -Herbert G. Klein
               -Note
               -Resignation
               -Forthcoming conversation with Haldeman
                      -Communications office
                            -Press Secretary
                                  -Changes in supervision


*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

                     -Possible job offer
                           -RNC communications director

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************


                           -Klein’s qualifications
                     -Ambassadorship to Mexico
                     -RNC
                           -Reorganization
                     -Ambassadorship to Mexico
                     -Private enterprise
          -US Information Agency [USIA]
               -James Leonard Reinsh
                     -Connally recommendation
                     -Support for the President
                           -1972 election
                                 -Cox Broadcasting Corporation endorsement
                     -Liberalism
                     -John F. Kennedy media advisor
                     -Liberalism
          -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] director
                                       -27-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                Tape Subject Log
                                  (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

            -Jerry V. Wilson
                  -The President’s decision
                  -Secondary education
                       -Egil (“Bud”) Krogh, Jr.’s memorandum
                       -Military service
                              -US Marine Corps
                       -Completion
                  -Qualifications
                       -Street crime
                       -Kidnapping
                       -Counterfeiting
                       -Airplane vandalism [?]


Second term reorganization
     -L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III
           -Job offer
                  -Administrative ability
                  -Under Secretaryship
                  -Religion
     -Cabinet
           -Catholic appointees
                  -Gray
                  -Roy L. Ash
                  -William E. Miller
                  -Irish-American, Italian-American
                  -Shultz
                         -Visibility
                         -[Helena M. (“Obie”) Shultz
                         -Contacts with Catholic clergy
                  -Ash
                  -Shultz
                  -Ash
                  -Shultz
                         -Contacts with Jesuit Catholic clergy
                               -Flanigan, Ash
           -Italian-American appointees
                  -Candidates
                         -Chicago Law firm
                               -Carl A. Pelletieri [?]
                               -28-

     NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. Feb.-08)

                                              Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

                            -Navaroski [sp?] [first name unknown]
                            -Whitcomb [first name unknown]
                            -Heinschweigel [sp?][first name unknown]
-Commerce Department
      -Fredrick B. Dent
            -Textile industry
                   -Support for the President
            -Age
            -Business Council
-Gray
      -Internal Revenue Service [IRS]
            -Experience
            -Problems
                   -Tax bar
-IRS
      -William J. Casey
            -State Department
      -Importance
      -Loyalty
            -Johnnie M. Walters
      -Krogh
      -Unknown person
      -Dean of Duke University Law School, Joseph [T. Sneed]
            -Possible Supreme Court Appointment
      -Qualification
            -Political responsiveness
                   -Franklyn C. (“Lyn”) Nofziger
      -Casey
-Gray
      -State Department
            -Political signals
      -Casey’s interest
            -Connally
                   -Under Secretary of State
      -Search for candidate
            -Casey’s aid
-Catholics
      -Gray
      -Publicity
            -Ash
                               -29-

     NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. Feb.-08)

                                               Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

            -Shultz
-Office of Management and Budget [OMB]
      -Cabinet rank
      -Possible name change
            -Office of Executive Management
      -Chet Holifield
-State Department
      -Under Secretary
            -Casey
      -Foreign Service Officers [FSOs]
      -Frank C. Carlucci
            -Under Secretary for Political Affiars
      - FSOs
            -Appointment
            -Political attitude
      -Chief of Protocol
            -James J. Reynolds
      -United Nations [UN] ambassadorship
-European Economic Community [EEC]
      -[Peterson]
-North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO] ambassadorship
      -Peterson
            -Reaction of militarists, economists
-David M. Kennedy
-NATO ambassadorship
      -George H.W. Bush
-Treasury Department
      -Deputy Secretary of Treasury
            -Bush
                   -Shultz
                   -Work with Ways and Means Committee
                   -Charls E. Walker
                   -Texas
-Defense Department
      -Elliot L. Richardson
            -Advantages
                   -Department of Health, Education and Welfare [HEW]
                          -Family Assistance Plan [FAP]
                          -Busing
      -William P. Clements, Jr.
                                -30-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

            -Toughness
                   -Connally
      -Richardson
            -Loyalty
            -Plans on HEW
            -Caspar W. (“Cap”) Weinberger
-Attorney General
      -Deputy
            -William D. Ruckelshaus
                   -Environmental Protection Agency [EPA]
                   -John N. Mitchell
            -Miles J. Ambrose
                   -Kleindienst
                   -White House staff
            -Ruckelshaus
                   -Possible US Senate candidacy
                   -EPA
                   -Department of Natural Resources [DNR]
                          -Butz
                   -Political ambitions
                   -Credibility with environmentalists
-Department of Housing and Urban Development [HUD]
      -John F. Collins
            -Background
                   -Irish Catholicism
      -William D. Eberle
            -Liberalism
      -Necessity for attacks on model cities, Office of Economic Opportunity
       [OEO]
            -Support
            -Community relations
                   -States
      -Housing
            -New approach
                   -Public housing
      -Appointment
            -Italian-American
            -Richard P. Cooley
                   -Background
                          -Catholicism
                               -31-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. Feb.-08)

                                               Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

                          -California
              -John W. Arbuckle
                    -Stanford University
-Transportation Department
       -Italian-American
              -HUD
       -Herbert F. DeSimone
              -Past work
                    -Performance
       -Italian-American
-Justice Department
       -Southerners
-Southerners
       -Solicitor General
              -Charles A. Wright
                    -University of Texas
              -Sneed
                    -Duke University
                    -Stanford University
              -Wright
                    -Expertise
                          -Constitutional law
                    -Law Enforcement Assistance Administration [LEAA]
       -List
              -Fredric V. Malek
-James T. Lynn
       -Under Secretary of the Commerce Department
       -Possible under secretary of HUD
              -Administrative duties
              -Super secretary
              -Promotion
-Undersecretaries
       -Importance
-Clayton Y. Cutter
       -Nebraska
-Transportation Department
-Labor Department
       -George Meany
              -Opposition to labor leader
       -Charles W. Colson
                                 -32-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                 Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

       -Assistant Secretaries
             -Donald F. Rodgers
       -Labor leaders’ contact with the President
             -Colson’s office
             -Channel
                    -Secretary of Labor role
             -Max M. Fisher’s view
                    -Jew
-Writing and research staff
       -Southerner
             -Richard W. Brannon
                    -HEW
       -Patrick J. Buchanan
-Labor
       -Leaders’ contact with the President
             -Channel
                    -Colson
-Leonard Garment
       -Role
             -Boards, commissions
-Interior Department
       -Appointee age
-Malek
       -Interest in cabinet position
       -Background
             -Ethnic background
                    -Yugoslavia, Czech
                    -Catholicism
                          -Grandfather
       -Qualifications
             -Experience
                    -[Harvard University Business School]
                    -Business
                          -[Triangle Corporation?]
                          -Management consulting
       -Under Secretary of Transportation
       -Under Secretary of HUD
             -Ash
       -Background
             -California
                                 -33-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                     Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

             -South Carolina
                   -Business
             -California
       -Interior Department
       -HUD
       -Transportation Department
       -Commerce Department
             -Dent
                   -Southern background
       -Transportation Department
       -HUD
             -Requirements
                   -Political and management skill
             -Rural development
             -Urban development
       -Transportation department
             -Ethnic
       -Ash
       -State Department
             -Compared to Casey
                   -Toughness
       -Transportation Department
-Interior Department
       -Energy crisis
             -Eberle
                   -Business experience
             -John C. Whitaker
             -Eberle
                   -Western background
-Morton
       -Ambassadorship to Canada, Australia
             -English speaking places
       -Ambassadorship to NATO
-Interior Department
       -Energy crisis
             -Connally
             -Morton
                   -Connally’s view
       -Bush
-Bush
                                      -34-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                      Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

           -Under Secretary of Treasury
           -RNC chairmanship
           -Treasury Department
                 -Interior Department

Energy crisis
     -Interagency coordination
            -Domestic Council
     -The President’s involvement
            -Timing
                   -Post-1972 election
            -Natural gas prices
     -Arms Control and Disarmament Agency [ACDA]
            -Qualifications
                   -Negotiating
            -Gerard C. Smith
            -Qualification
                   -Order taking
            -Budget cut
            -Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
            -Staff
                   -Opposition to administration
            -Lynn
                   -Negotiating skills
                   -Knowledge
                         -Arms
                         -Foreign trade
            -Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty [SALT] II negotiations
            -SALT negotiations
                   -Knowledge of disarmament
                         -William C. Foster, Paul H. Nitze
            -Casey
                   -Appointment
            -Bush
                   -Kissinger
                   -Under Secretary of Treasury
                   -RNC chairmanship
     -Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]
            -Dr. James R. Schlesinger
     -Bush
                                 -35-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                  Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

       -Treasury Department
             -Under secretary
             -Secretary
             -Under secretary
                   -Importance
-EPA
      -Ruckelshaus
      -Whitaker
             -Support for the President
                    -Compared to Ruckelshaus
             -Credibility
                    -Environmentalists
                    -Toughness
-National Park Service
      -Whitaker
      -Importance of job
      -Ronald H. Walker
             -Interior Department
-Whitaker
      -Compared to Ruckelshaus
             -Loyalty
-Ruckelshaus
      -Political ambitions
             -Illinois Senate race
                    -1974 election
                          -Adlai E. Stevenson, III
                                -Everett M. Dirksen
-Cost of Living Council [COLC]
      -Donald H. Rumsfeld
             -Shultz
-Departures
      -Robert H. Finch
      -Rumsfeld
      -Flanigan
      -Klein
      -Timing
             -Colson
                    -Concern about perception
                    -Watergate
                    -Conversation with Buchanan
                                 -36-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                  Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

                        -Law firm
                  -Conversation with Laird
                  -Law firm
                        -Buchanan
                  -Sensitivity of position
                  -Accomplishments
                        -New Majority
                  -Retention
                        -Risk
                        -Conversation with the President
                               -Timing
                                     -1972 election
                               -Possible suit against the press
                        -Possible suit against the press
                               -New York Times v. Sullivan
                                     -Possible position as practicing lawyer
                        -Possible trial
                        -January 20, 1973
                        -Announcement
                        -Interim
                        -Concern about perception
                               -Watergate
                                     -Trial
                                            -Impact
-Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon’s office
      -Michael J. Farrell
            -Memorandum
                  -Plans
-Constance M. (Cornell) (“Connie”) Stuart
      -Plans to White House
-John S. Nidecker
-Farrell
      -Competence
      -Departure from White House
-Nidecker
      -Retention
-Walker
-Atomic Energy Commission [AEC]
      -Whitaker
-John W. Rollins
                                -37-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                 Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

      -Ambassadorship to Jamaica
- Ambassadorship to Jamaica
      -Vincent de Roulet
-Ambassadorships
      -State Department recommendations
            -De Roulet
-De Roulet
      -Support for the President
      -Reports on FSOs
            -Charles A. Meyer
-State Department
      -Robert C. Hill
            -Assistant Secretary for Inter-American Affiars
                  -New Hampshire
                  -Ambassadorship to Spain
                        -Performance
                              -Loyalty
            -Under Secretary
                  -Loyalty
                  -Malek
            -Carlucci
      -Henry Cabot Lodge
            -Departure
                  -Age
-Rockefeller
      -Forthcoming telephone call from Ehrlichman
      -Meeting with the President [November 21, 1972]
            -Timing
                  -Thanksgiving
            -Agenda
                  -Study
                        -Ehrlichman’s briefing of the President
                  -Second term reorganization
                        -Possible constitutional convention on Federal
                         reorganization
                  -Advisory panel on domestic affairs
                        -Possible chairmanship
                        -Irving Kristol
                        -Daniel P. (“Pat”) Moynihan
                                              -38-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     Tape Subject Log
                                       (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                              Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

       The President's schedule
            -Meeting with Rogers
                  -Time
                  -Second term reorganization
                         -Plan
                               -Revision

       Second term reorganization
            -Rogers
                  -Difficulty
                        -Cabinet
                  -1972 campaign
                        -Hard work
                              -Reward
                                    -Retention
                                    -Repaying the President
                              -Duty

       The President’s schedule
             -Rogers
                  -Meeting with President
                         -Haldeman presence
            -Connally

Haldeman left at 3:30 pm

       Second term reorganization
            -Rockefeller
                  -Advisory panel on domestic affairs
                        -Advantages
                              -Resources
                              -Views
                              -Political clout
                                     -“Cosmetics”
                        -1972 election
                        -Problems
                              -New programs
                                     -Summer youth corps
                                     -Rebuilding cities
                              -Conservatives
                                 -39-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                 Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

                          -Human events
                          -Sapol [sp?] [First name unknown]
                          -Kristol
                          -Edward C. Banfield
             -Membership
                    -Mayor
             -Rockefeller’s role
             -Federal staff
             -Purpose
                    -Revenue sharing
             -Ehrlichman’s forthcoming effort
-Interior Department
       -Unknown person
       -Smokey the Bear
       -Robert J. Hitt
             -Performance
             -Title
             -Possible Under Secretary
-Patricia R. Hitt
       -Departure
             -HEW
-Whitaker
       -Loyalty
-Malek
       -Loyalty
       -Ash
       -Work with White House
       -Possible Cabinet position
             -Possible meeting with the President
             -Experience
             -HUD
                    -Mayors, public interest groups
-HUD
       -Candidates
             -Requirements
                    -Personal skills
                    -Cutbacks
             -Mortgage bankers
       -Collins
             -Boston
                                 -40-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                  Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

           -Colson
           -Qualifications
                  -Mayoral performance
           -Background
                  -Irish Catholic Democrat
                  -View of Edward M. Kennedy
                  -Polio
                  -Boston chamber of commerce
                  -Lecturing
                         -Harvard University
           -Political experience, pragmatism
     -Low income housing program
           -Romney
           -Problems
                  -Edward W. Brooke
                         -Congressional amendment [Housing and Urban
                         Development Act of 1972]
                                -Rents
                                      -Links to salaries
                                            -Effect on housing authorities
           -Reforms
                  -Voucher system
                         -Vacant housing
                         -Effect on housing market
                         -British program
                         -Congressional relations
                                -Timing
                                -Possible legislation
                                -Weinberger
-Weinberger
     -HEW
           -HUD
-HUD
     -Preston Martin
           -Departure
           -Background
                  -Education
                  -Lecturing
           -Job performance
     -Requirements
                                  -41-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                   Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

              -Business management
              -Italian-American, Catholic
              -Business management
                     -Malek
       -Malek
              -Under secretary
       -Requirements
              -Congressional, mayoral, housing authorities relations
       -Romney
              -Job performance
                     -Richard C. Van Dusen
       -Cooley
              -Background
                     -Business experience
                     -Catholicism
                     -West
       -Italian-American
-Justice Department
       -Solicitor General
              -Unknown Chicago lawyer [Pellettieri?]
                     -Haldeman’s suggestion
              -Southerner
                     -Wright
                           -University of Texas
                           -Busing
              -Robert H. Bork
                     -Background
                           -Conservatism
                           -Law professor
                                 -Yale University
                           -American Enterprise Institute [AEI]
                     -Civil Rights Division
                     -Personal appearance
                           -Beard
-HUD
       -Collins
       -Housing problem
              -Budget
       -Collins
              -Brooke
                                 -42-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                   Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

              -Alternative
                    -Midwest
              -Personal attributes
                    -Vigor
       -Eberle
              -Background
                    -Boise-Cascade Corporation
                          -American standard
              -Business ability
              -Character
                    -Cooley
-Interior Department
       -Italian-American
              -Transportation Department
                    -[Volpe] replacement
              -Carlucci
                    -Presence
                          -Charisma
-Volpe
       -Ambassadorship to Italy
-Romney
       -Future with the administration
       -Relations with administration
       -Conversation with the President
              -Plans
-Morton
       -Choices
              -NATO ambassadorship
-Cabinet rank positions
       -First term appointments
              -Problems
                    -UN ambassadorship
                    -NATO ambassadorship
                          -David Kennedy
              -Counselors
       -New Cabinet
              -Number
              -Functionality
                    -Compared to honorary status
-Haldeman
                                            -43-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     Tape Subject Log
                                       (rev. Feb.-08)

                                                           Conversation No. 225-39 (cont’d)

             -The President's schedule
                   -1956 elections
                        -Dwight D. Eisenhower’s schedule
                   -Camp David
                        Haldeman
                        -Florida
                               -Work
                                     -Klein
             -Klein
                   -Retention
             -Ehrlichman
                   -Retention
                        -Problem
             -Ehrlichman, Haldeman, Kissinger
                   -Control
                   -The President’s confidence
             -Ehrlichman
                   -Reappointment
                        -Criticism
                               -Domestic affairs
                               -Public relations

Ehrlichman left at 3:45 pm