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Now, on these lists here, first, I had some thoughts with regard to Mr. Rogers.

It occurred to me that one thing you might do, Bob, would be to sit him down first and join the reorganization.

However, greatly underplaying, of course, the national security, but I'm just trying to fuzz that over.

President has made one of the most important decisions ever made.

In other words, he's going to go forward with reorganization within the law.

And here's what we're going to do.

Now, as a result of this reorganization, it requires massive changes from the cabinet, because you can't put existing men under other men.

They aren't going to take it.

And under the circumstances, what we're going to have to do is to maintain that we just haven't said we're going to do it.

Anybody who's been in the cabinet here two years or more are going to have to be in tune.

You see what I'm getting at?

I think the point is the idea that he is doing something in the way of leadership to help us make other decisions.

For example, you could say we have to vote Romney, we have to vote Volpe, and we have to vote Peterson because we're not going to put him in charge.

See my point?

Or does this make sense to you?

Yep.

I think with Rogers, if he can have some feeling that he's serving some other purpose than just getting out, which he ought to feel fine about getting out after he's been there for four years.

We're actually ending up fooling everybody.

I know we are.

Particularly with Rogers.

Except bus and crannies.

Bus and crannies, but they won't admit it.

And they are really

Anyway, Buds and Schultz, that's right.

Schultz.

Schultz has been in six months.

Mayonnaise has been in eight months.

Buds has been in a little longer, it's true, about a year.

The only one, they're the three new ones, except for Peterson, who's basically, but he's not going to be a lead dog.

They're going to be dogs.

We're keeping, the ones we're keeping are all going to be lead dogs.

Justice being a separate unit, and Buds being a lead dog in natural and

That's right.

Anything other way you want to approach it, then I will, of course, get him on that.

I'll just say that this is the way it's going to be.

You want me to review the reorganization with it before you talk to him about it?

This is trying to get a way for you to get into conversations.

Well, that's the way to do it.

And let him know how it's going to go.

Yeah.

We weren't going to show most of them that are leaving the reorganization.

Yeah, maybe we should.

Well, I wouldn't show it to Laird, but I would show it to him.

I'd show it to Bill, and I'd say, Bill, this is a compliment.

We can't show it to the others, to people, unless they...

He's going to ask, who do you have in mind, per se?

I'd tell him.

I'd say that I told him what we should have, and I had to have somebody that I knew, somebody that...

He'll ask me, and I think I should tell him that the president will want to cover that with you.

Yeah, I'll cover it with him.

There will be some things to talk about.

Yeah.

I think you can tell him.

You're going to have to.

It doesn't make any difference.

If you think it's better for me to tell him, I'll tell him.

I would think it's going to be a great surprise.

I think the main thing is it isn't going to be what's happening.

Rush will be a surprise to him.

Well, the main thing is you're telling him, well, look, he's not going to... Bill, you know some of the problems we've got here.

It isn't going to be Rockefeller.

It isn't going to be Colin.

Is that good for Bill?

He wants somebody to work with him and one who has worked with you at Fresno.

I'll tell you who it is.

How's that?

Or are you just telling him?

I'm just telling him.

You're telling him it's going to be Rush.

The fellow that he thinks you're doing is Rush.

It's Rush.

I think you can persuade him that he has had a full and

a rewarding career and successful it's going to be kind of with the settlement of vietnam that's right and boy if he's got any sense of all they want to get his ass off the past this is the thing you're going to have to get into that way again very few men have lasted four years and no one has come through a period as tough as this one in terms of a sustained war and the middle east

All these things.

Well, he's had the great initiative.

I think you could take him over the landscape and just persuade him that he's done and so forth.

But the main thing is that, getting into that, then you go into the deal that we're asking, that all of us believe, but that I think that even though he would be the one of the group that I want to say for personal reasons that, I believe,

in the best interest of everybody concerned.

I won't explain it.

You'll go.

Well, I think he's a vain man that wouldn't be persuaded if you said to him that he's had perhaps one of the most enriched experiences as Secretary of State of anybody in recent history.

Well, and it's been a terrible experience to have to work with Henry Kissinger.

but that he's pulled it off of Greece and so on, and he caps it by signing the Vietnam War.

So he's the one that signs to get this over.

And history will give him great credit, and thinking about it from his standpoint as well as yours, from his standpoint, this is a propitious time.

And you can say, Bill, you're the first man the president's talking to.

He hasn't talked to any other member.

They don't know who's going to be in it or so forth.

But you're the key to the whole point.

Joe, I had a great chat.

Bill, the president, is a toughest man.

He's thought about this all week, and so forth, as if I did.

And he figures, as far as we can replace him, so he will have no conclusions about that, it's just going to be common.

It's going to be rock and roll.

He makes it to be somebody that can have the continuity, somebody he has confidence in, who has had some success.

He hasn't mentioned it to the man yet.

He doesn't want to be taken because he wants to be the man.

He wants to rush.

All these things, all these things are hard.

They're hard to quit.

OK, what else?

I do a couple of things that are hard that I think we've got to decide now.

I noticed you have planning involved.

We can't keep planning.

But we did this before you and I made that decision.

It's a hard one, but I think we've got to take Pete and tell Pete now, and not in the White House either.

It would be right for him to stay in the White House.

He's got a place for it, and I don't think he should be over there.

I totally agree with you on that.

I really want to touch on that.

As you said, there's been a lot of war in any position.

He has to stay as long as he can.

And to borrow that kind of trouble, I'm not sure what it is.

On the decision type 2, I thought of one thing, Bob, which is talking to the client.

I think you should say to him this.

We're going to have a total reorganization.

A total reorganization includes, I mean, the situation's changed now.

We don't have to do this and that the other day.

The president believes this has not been a healthy relationship between these two offices in a competitive, overlapping race.

Therefore, he's going to put the director of, what do you call it, communications, that's going to be under the press secretary.

Is that correct?

I think you should tell Klein that.

And sort of mentally reserve the possibility that you won't do it if you've got a compatible person.

Well, it isn't.

It isn't.

It is from a practical standpoint.

Just say, we're going to put that under the press secretary.

It's going to be put under that.

The office will be there.

But for the press secretary, you've got to have one boss for the president.

And it's got to be the press secretary.

It cannot be this office.

This is not right.

And he doesn't want you to stay under those circumstances.

Then, however, I would offer him director of communications for the national television.

Majority.

We might relocate that, if you will.

We don't have a new channel yet, but it's because we're moving the politics out of the White House.

And incidentally, you want to remember, you ain't going to get any direct communication support today, anyway.

And clients have probably been like, Bob, you're the best man.

It wouldn't be the best man you could get, but he won't take it, so there's no major time.

And it's a good idea.

We offered some, many times.

We also offer in Mexico.

ambassador to Mexico should be offered.

Those are the two, if we can do that.

Say if you'd like to stay in the government, down at the communications thing, you can go over to the National Committee now.

Which we're operating.

We're operating the National Committee.

We're putting all of our operations over there.

On the other side, if you would like to go to Mexico, the President will appoint you ambassador.

If you'd like to go outside into private enterprise, I know there's a market for that.

Anything you want, he thinks that you could, and he feels that, incidentally, Connolly mentioned Leonard Wrench as a possibility for director of USIA.

Was Wrench with us?

Oh, hell yes.

Was he?

Well, the cocks and acres of darkness for the first time.

Yeah, but I didn't know if Wrench had done this.

I don't want him.

He doesn't basically seem too liberal, but USIA.

Well, I don't know.

Wrench is a damn good man.

The point about him, he was Kennedy's TV guy.

The point about him is maybe he would have been, and he was with us, and it's not bad to have that sort of thing, but what I meant is if he's too liberal, I don't want him to go in with the USAID people.

He was your client.

And I looked over at the Jerry Wilson thing, John, and I made that decision.

So we've got to set that in order.

Now, I'm not a bit concerned about the fact that his gross memo was wrongly rated.

He said it was ninth grade education.

He didn't finish high school.

Oh, yes.

After he left the Marine Corps.

See, the reason he finished only the ninth grade is that he went into the service when he was 15 years old.

Oh, I heard that.

That's right.

He lied about it.

That's right.

And then went into the Marine Corps and then came back and finished high school.

It's a hell of a story.

Yeah.

He's got exactly the qualities we need.

He's a professional.

He's a man that we've got to deal with street crime.

That's what we're about here.

And we're going to get away from the kidnapping era, and counterfeiting, and all the rest, and shooting tires out of airplanes, and all that sort of thing.

We're just going to get the guy with the red box.

And I'm close to the one that shoots the tires out, too.

Yeah, but he'd succeed.

He'd shoot the airplane down.

Now, the question is, what can I do with Pat Gray?

Pat Gray is good at ministry.

All right.

And he's a guy we can use as an undersecretary in any one of the number of places.

Yeah.

He is.

I thought he was.

Well, I could be wrong now.

But that doesn't make any difference.

Pat Gray is a Catholic like Roy A.

Bill Miller.

We've got to have an Irish Catholic.

Irish or Italian Catholics somewhere in this cabin.

George Schultz is a Catholic, isn't he?

Schultz?

Very much so.

Nobody would ever know him.

Oh, he's well known for the Catholic movement.

They'd be the path to his doors.

The Catholics, that's why he does too.

He's a very active, believing type.

And he has the bishops in for lunch and all that kind of stuff, and really has quite a connection.

You can make a point on that.

Roy Ashby, one of his pleasant surprise, I don't care what he is, I don't care what his Schultz is, you understand the point is, we just need the coloration.

I don't need it.

Ash is a breakfast.

Oh, I know.

But we just need the coloration.

Well, George can take on some of the stuff that Flanagan's been doing, warning and dining the Jesuits and all that kind of stuff.

Ash.

Yeah, but I mean, George has done that in the past.

Anyway, you can't buy it.

I haven't found yet any of it.

Yeah, we've got several names.

We're trying to check them out.

There's a lawyer that sounds possible.

We've got a guy, you know, Chicago law firm.

We've got a guy in the Chicago law firm, and his name is Pelletieri or something.

And the firm has a Naborowski...

Terry Whitcomb and Heinz Schweigel or something is the most ethnic law firm.

Okay, you understand my concern here.

It's just got to happen.

Right.

It's got to happen.

How?

Other decisions.

Then?

Definitely for Congress.

Let's just go on.

There's another reason to have Ben in Congress.

That'll be a great reassurance to the textual media.

who are still our straight supporters down there.

But then the right age, it's a hell of a fall.

And it has to be told to the business council and the business members.

It's not the same without some hard talks about that.

Pat Gray, coming to IRS.

Yeah, but...

would be the wrong thing.

He's not been a tax man.

A tax man.

And I think we would get the same kind of backlash from the tax bar.

Yep.

All right.

Well, plus you get it.

You have it.

Well, the funny thing is, what should we try with Casey then?

Should we try him on IRS first?

The question is, where is the higher college?

Stay in your IRS.

You really have to...

I don't want that to drop between the schools.

I don't want another Johnny Walters.

We'll get something.

Okay.

Now,

Is that part of the sale of a property?

I'd kind of like to hang on to him.

I know, but don't do that.

Well, I've got a guy that would pass as a tax lawyer in the White House, but really not with a sufficient stature at the time.

It's a close corporation.

I thought that being in the Duke Law School, would you take it, having in mind the fact that he would go up to

the court maybe tax his bill.

I guess it is, isn't it?

I don't know if it's a good possibility.

Probably.

We've got to have a guy that is politically responsive.

Yeah, I know.

And, I mean, really, somebody like Lynn Noxinger is what we need.

Well, aren't we?

We're just hired, call it.

Maybe IRS.

I agree with you.

The state is.

The greatest state.

monument to get ready to go in the state and I think do a pretty good job.

That's my point.

And that would be the right thing.

There you want the signal political action.

Yeah.

Well, you don't have an IRS.

The problem is, is the problem for college doesn't affect the case.

The fact that the IRS secretary of state

He sent that signal all over.

We keep running across people that he sent that to.

So why don't we ask Casey Maynard.

Casey's in the tax field.

If you get an outside tax lawyer, he'll be like a piece of that.

Don't do it.

We won't fill in until we get the right guy.

All right.

Fill it to be filling in.

All right.

What about, uh, Grayland Company, his son is a Catholic, by the way.

I'm almost certain he said that.

Incidentally, if we get this off, let's be damn sure that the word gets into the press that Ash and Schultz are Catholic, right?

In other words, have somebody write a nasty story about the fact that he's got the most Catholic... Could you answer that?

O-N-B is Catholic, right?

That's the only one I'm keeping in the Catholic rank.

The only one.

We always had it with Captain Frank.

That's what the plan calls for, moving it up.

That's right.

To level one.

Send out a reorganization plan.

So we've got to think about that as to what, whether they'll, then log it in front of the testing point tonight.

Change the name.

I would call it Office of Executive Management.

Take the word budget out of it.

All right, then we'll go with Casey, Undersecretary.

Now, when you say Foreign Service Offices, that just petrifies me.

I thought you had to put an S on it.

I mean, yeah, but they're

We just got to get the right kind of a board service officer.

That's my whole point.

I don't know who it is.

Maybe there's a hardline board service officer someplace out there in the great world of board service.

I think it's a little bit mixing oil and water.

The militarists wouldn't like it, and even the economists wouldn't like it.

And Peterson, either takes it or not.

Boom.

The NATO is not a bad spot for somebody.

I think that's a very good idea.

I think that's the kind of a man that Schultz could use.

Especially when the way he's made his connection.

Well, he knows the whole bunch.

That's the answer to losing Charlie Walker's connections, in a way.

His are just as good.

And also it gets him where he can move up.

And he's from the same city.

Texas doesn't lose anything.

That's true.

I think on defense...

Unless somebody devolves a hell of an argument that we ought to go with Elliot Richards, and one of the main reasons, and many others, is to get him the hell out of ATW as a signal that we're sending family assistance a message forever.

The main reason to be getting him in, without Henry, and for him to know that we're just going to have the clements, we're just going to have the balls.

Clements, they say, is the top son of a bitch, according to Colin.

We're going to play that game.

He'll do whatever you tell him.

I hope he comes up with something.

Well, he's just come up with a plan on HEW that's damn interesting.

It cuts the guts right out of HEW.

He was asked to do this.

He's been a long time about it, but it's an intelligent way of doing it.

I don't think Cap could take it now as a beginning blueprint and move on.

I think Elliot will do what you're asking him to.

Your deputy attorney general, I don't know, why do you think he put Ruckelshaus over there?

Are you just trying to get him out of the environment?

No, no, I'm just trying to find a name that fits in there.

When I put it down, I said, do I have any idea that he's going to go up?

It's part of the old Mitchell crowd, and I don't have my heart in it, frankly.

I'm not so sure that Miles Ambrose is hard.

Ambrose, I think, would give Kleindienst a much harder time and would track with us better.

He's a better pick than Ruckelshaus.

I don't know if Bo Ruckels also does that.

I agree.

He's a candidate for the United States Senate.

We've been very damn nice to him.

That's right.

I think we've got to get him out of the environment.

I agree.

Or do you?

I don't know.

Bad signal.

Well, I'll tell you what we're doing to him.

We're putting him under the DNR guy.

We're putting him under butts.

And I think that you could afford to leave Ruckels' house there until he wants to go back and run for office.

without a whole lot of damage.

He's got credibility with the damn environment movement now.

And that's awfully important.

HOD, none of those will do.

HOD, let's face it, this community is awful.

I would take over all of those.

I'd take John Collins over there in Boston.

At least he's an Irish Catholic.

But you see, you do nothing out of it.

Everly, I like, but... Everly is a liberal, basically.

Beat down.

I think the problem you have here in H-U-V, here is the guy that's got to cut the guts out of those model cities, W-O-E-O spin-offs, and all the rest.

Or am I wrong?

This network has to be sure to support it anyway.

We're going to do it.

He's got to support it.

That's right.

You don't want to lobby him the other way.

That's right.

He's the head.

He's the guy that's going to handle the community relations in the states.

Well, the big job for HUD this time is a brand new approach to housing.

The federal housing program is bankrupt.

That is public housing, low and moderate income housing.

As a voice, I think that's pretty good.

Believe it or not.

Well, maybe.

Let me ask you this.

Out of the H&E thing, can't you get theirs?

there, a place to run, in my opinion.

Sure.

Yeah, sure.

And that's where we're going.

Okay.

For instance, Dick Cooley, it would seem to me, might be a possible, he's not an Italian Catholic, but he's a Catholic.

Yeah.

He's a California Catholic, a prominent layman.

Would he do it?

He might.

I don't mind.

If you put Dick Cooley with Taylor, and if he played ball with us, he'd be awesome.

I know, he's supposed to be one of the young punch-ups.

Did you consider the ball from Stanford tonight?

I don't know.

That just came up in my mind.

For me.

Transportation, of course, is a wide open.

I have to sure tag you.

Sure.

Although I prefer to have you tag in, frankly, a hud.

You can run the hud.

It's a more important position.

Yeah.

But why couldn't you just take the transportation line of the boat and be still on?

Well, because that's for lack of a better one.

I did some checking on and he was a disaster when he was in there.

He's a very poor operator.

He would make more trouble for you than any.

That's fine.

That's fine in Italian.

So there's got to be a recognition of the Italians in that position.

It'd be better to put the Italian.

Is there any way that I suggest that you get one

I see no Southerner in that Justice Department lineup.

I see no Southerners.

Sure.

Well, Stan put a Southerner in there.

Solicitor General.

Could you get a Southerner?

Solicitor General.

How would you like Wright from the University of Texas to be graded?

Let's put somebody like that on.

Some Southerner.

Or get my loop man to take that.

All right.

He's a Southerner.

Yeah.

Well, no, he's not.

As a matter of fact, he comes from Stanford.

But Wright is a bona fide Stogie-spoken Southerner, who was a constitutional expert.

I don't know why I didn't pick him before.

All right.

You will see a lot of Southerner in there, and Solicitor General would be a damn good place to put him.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wouldn't mind.

But anyway, largest was Southerner, John.

There's not enough Southerners in the whole operation.

It's our old story.

We always pick the people we don't like.

And I know you've got very few good names.

But on the outside, we've got, well, it's Vanity.

Fred's bringing us some more tonight.

This is just an interim.

I'll try some southerners.

Try, uh, I like, if you've got to pick somebody, I, I, it's a shame that Jim Lynn, I mean, it's a hell of a fella.

I'm rolling out for, he's been an undersecretary for a long time.

Where is he now?

Commerce.

So you can make him undersecretary of HUD.

That undersecretary there will run HUD.

Yeah, I know.

Because the secretary will be

Well, you might put Jim Lynn as the Undersecretary of Commerce as the guy to run it, telling us it's a terribly important thing, and you're going to be the nut-cutter that does our job, and your next job isn't up.

He probably won't stay.

He's been Undersecretary under two secretaries.

He's been Undersecretary under Supersecretary this time.

Who's been at HUD, not Congress?

I've been at HUD.

I have a new department.

Say, now, this is something new.

Add them.

He changes after this and he said, you're going up.

But we've got to have this job done.

If he doesn't, I understand.

The secretaries are just as important as the secretaries.

Is Clayton the other young guy?

He's the young guy from Nebraska.

Transportation...

I don't mean he doesn't want to live with you.

Let's see.

There, just look closely.

There, I put your assistant secretary and so forth around.

I want to lard in a public that I'm willing to have with Don Rogers.

I don't know how this... One thing that we have here is a problem.

That is that...

One thing that the Coastal Office does, how in the hell does the labor leader get through with the president?

How does he, what is his channel?

I mean, what I mean is, who sort of handles affairs?

Like, I'm sure the Secretary of Labor does, right?

That's what they're saying.

It doesn't really work out that way.

That's what they feel.

You know, that's why Max Fischer says you've got to have a tube.

Somebody else is going to be a labor leader, and somebody else wants a southerner.

Those are the three that I'm thinking of.

The only answer is that if it does work out, then they're wrong.

Well, anyway, did I mention one southerner?

Well, I think that's your part.

You can put that one southerner, Brannan.

And it's on the research thing, because they tell me he's a very good writer.

You know, Brannan did Brannan.

It's good to have that sort of thing.

They have sort of some money over there that they think is a certain amount of cannabis.

Others that they, that the labor people have, well, I frankly think they have their own trade in the wine house through the truck post, frankly.

That's a more powerful one that has some money in it.

Once you start, then you've got a huge white house back on the other side.

Oh, that's right.

But in other words, you keep Garmin in one position.

Well, I keep him on just as a special consultant to you, boards, commissions.

He'll handle all those odds and ends of the problem types.

Interior, I'd like to go there.

There's a place where you can get some good organics or anything you want there.

We're going there.

We haven't got the nature of it.

What can we get Malik to do?

Well, I pitched Malik to take the management thing.

I told him that's what you wanted him to do.

He said, Gally, you really wanted a domestic department.

You really wanted to be in the cabinet.

He says, I'm an ethnic.

I'm a, what kind of?

He's Yugoslavian and Czech.

He's a grandfather of the captain.

But he said, I really think I can do it.

He said, I'm young, so I work hard.

I'd really like to be the captain.

What is his experience?

Well, he and some other guys came out of business school.

They called it the funk.

In other words, what could he run as a captain?

His experience is management consulting and building his own business.

He could run any one of the...

He's a manager.

He would take an undersecretary, but...

That's my point, right.

Maybe he's the guy to run the undersecretary of HUD.

He could do it, I have no doubt.

But I think you could put it to him on this basis.

Ash is only going to be there six or eight months.

You can only be there six or eight months, and then I'm going to move you out and up.

And he'd probably stay if we think it's worthwhile to have him stay.

Now, I don't know whether he'll stay, but I think it's worthwhile.

I think it's worthwhile.

His pitch is on the cabinet thing, which makes a certain amount of sense.

He's a California and a South Carolinian.

His business was in South Carolina.

His early business years and current residence are California.

He couldn't be a credible interior man.

Where is he going to be credible?

Superior, but not HUD, or transportation.

Or commerce, or not.

Not commerce, we've got debt that's done.

I mean, there's a, yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

I've just gotten to have one southerner, a real southerner in there, and that's our southerner.

Is there any other transportation?

Well, HUD is a hell of a big job now.

That's right.

Can you handle the whole thing in HUD?

I'd say no, I don't think so either.

It takes one hell of a stroke.

It takes a politician as well as a manager to handle a hug.

You see, having in mind the super agents.

That's right.

And he becomes the whole rural development, urban development guy.

I just don't think he's got it.

All you got is transportation, and you need for something else.

Well, you need transportation for your thing.

And for me, what you need is right over there with the action.

For a while, I mean, these things are not going to leave me forever.

You can manage the hell out of state.

You can do your ripping up.

You can do it.

Nobody, nobody can get better than Casey.

He might be, yeah, because he's tougher.

I don't know if he's tougher than Casey.

Casey's bad enough.

We really kind of made the casey thing at that level there.

Malik, I'm very high on him now.

Do you have a tough problem moving a Malik into the state department?

Yeah, I'm moving that young guy.

You have no problem.

Malik is a possibility.

Well, suppose you gave him transportation.

That's a... Now, in territory, for example, I want there somebody that can work on the energy crisis.

That's a hell of a big job for somebody.

You bet.

I've already, I noticed, he, of course, ran a conglomerate.

And he's a man, as I said, with Whittaker.

No, I'm not.

I'm not disappointed.

There really is a westerner for whatever that's worth.

Yeah, but usually you're putting him in second place.

Dr. Spartan, incidentally, I would offer Canada.

Well, he wants it.

Here's Canada and Australia.

He has to put it in.

on the energy crisis thing, you know, they commonly get hard with me.

He said, you've got to get somebody in the interior.

He said, I asked him about Mark.

I said, he's a great fellow, a very wonderful person.

He's a great salesman.

But he shouldn't get him because he can't handle the energy crisis.

Well, we have had...

that connection, uh, the, uh, well, I think it's on my mind.

Bush from the interior desk.

I've already thrown Bush around for a while.

Undersecretary of the Treasury.

What was that?

Treasury.

Undersecretary of the Treasury and the National Committee.

That's right.

National Committee is my first choice.

Unless you've got some better choice for the National Committee.

Treasury would be

better for Bush, better from our standpoint for Bush than Interior, although I have no doubt that he could pull it off.

Now, the energy thing touches so many departments that we've been doing it on an interagency basis out of a domestic council, and we're well along.

Some of it involves such really tough calls that we wanted to get you into it after the election.

For instance, we're going to have to raise natural gas prices.

rather dramatically.

And there are a whole bunch of things like that that have to be done that we'll be getting into over the period of the next couple of months.

But that study is well along.

And we just haven't publicized it.

We haven't said anything about it.

Another one that you've got here is .

Yes.

Is he a negotiator?

Hell no.

He's an operator.

That's that job.

That's a serious job.

That's got to be good.

It takes orders, doesn't it?

Yes.

Because, you see, what we want to do is to cut the guts out of the agency.

It's $9 million in full saboteurs and so on.

It's injections and everything.

I don't know.

I mean, just left-wingers, softheads, saboteurs, and I think some people and so forth.

And it's just bad.

Bad.

What about Lynn for that?

He's a hell of a negotiator.

Well, probably.

He doesn't know anything about arms.

He knows a lot about foreign trade.

I don't know that he's been in foreign negotiations.

But I just don't know.

He's a tough little lawyer, is what he is.

Does the head of act have to also be a foreign negotiator?

How about splitting that?

I don't know why we have to go from active to inactive to somebody that's hurt.

I think in salt and so forth, you've got to have somebody who knows something about this or not.

They've been in the field, which means you've got to ban those choices, because most of us in the field are like Bill, Foster, Paul, and so on.

I mean, we're going to have to do that.

Very energetic, very bright.

IRS is the only one active.

For our purposes, we need an IRS.

I think we just gotta ask him to do it.

Let's see what he says.

Another possibility is George Bush.

Pick orders.

And he'll take out his... Actually, it's never his job.

In fact, I think that's the best thing to do with George Bush.

Right, I was an undersecretary of trade.

Okay.

Because the more I think about that, the more that grows on me.

That's a real, real, real stroke.

We could get that to somebody else.

And the National Committee will find somebody else to do that.

The Central Colleges.

Mr. Mayor of Galveston, George.

Undersecretary of Treasury.

Well, okay.

You think so?

I would think so.

You might even want to be secretary.

Of course.

Well, if he does, fine.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, George.

Goodbye.

He has kept the rank and all that.

That's right.

Yeah, but in this new alignment, if he didn't jump at that, he must.

Okay.

Because he's in fact a secretary.

Yeah.

Okay.

A lot of people are more concerned with the fact that the last page on there has an idea on it, and that is to take Rumpelstiltskin out of IFA and put Whitaker in there.

Now, between the two, Whitaker is more the Nixon man than Rumpelstiltskin.

But, well, yeah, he has some credibility.

Well,

Oh, I mean he has the credibility as an environmentalist, but I don't think he has the credibility of being the tough guy to handle this thing.

But maybe that makes no difference.

I like Whitaker, frankly.

But you don't think Whitaker's like Parker?

I'm just guessing.

Give me a Tom Sankovich for that thing.

I'll take it myself.

Oh, really, that's a hell of a job.

I think it is.

It is a hell of a job.

Get one of our real young guys a chance to do that.

We've got a bunch of them.

Up and down the line.

Ron Walker.

He doesn't want nothing for the park service.

I want a tough guy running the park service.

Got it.

I just want somebody.

I want somebody that's totally my man in that park service that will tear the shit out of him.

Walker couldn't be better.

I love it.

Great.

That's one to decide.

Getting back to Whitaker, why do we put Rumpelstiltskin out?

What's the reason?

You mean the external reason or what's my thinking?

My thinking on it is, frankly, Whitaker's more reliable than Rumpelstiltskin.

He will more likely think about you first.

What is Rumpelstiltskin?

Just tell Robert Suss he had a great ride in Indiana and run through the 70s.

Well, he is going to run through the 70s.

He's got to get his ass out there right now.

He would understand if Whitaker took his job because it would be pretty obvious.

Incidentally, that Illinois seat is in 74.

It's a short term.

Stevenson's was in the balance of the nursing.

Oh, yeah.

He says that he is.

Well, maybe he shouldn't get out now.

You've got a pretty good argument here on all this, but out of the White House, Bench will be leaving, Rumsfeld will be leaving, Flanagan will be leaving, and Klein will be leaving.

Now, it seems to me that that brings

right up on the Colson problem.

And Colson, Colson cannot really, I don't think that, I just don't think that he's correct in his thinking that if he goes, his feeling, John, apparently is that if he goes, it looks as if, and as he put it, he said that when he goes and others stay, that it looks as if, well, we just shucked him off because we were trying to get rid of people and it became a watergate.

for Christ sakes, all these other people I may have met, no chain of water came.

We launched a series of events that I didn't know about this morning, inadvertently on that, but may get it underway anyway, because Buchanan went driving back down, went rushing right in to talk to Colson about how great it was he was leaving right away to start this law firm, and how important it was that he get out instantly to do it.

So, Buchanan told you that, or Colson told you that?

No, Colson apparently called him.

I didn't talk to him because I was over here and said that he wanted to talk to me because he can't agree to this.

But it may be good that he did.

Well, it's all right.

We didn't tell Pat that he was going to do it right away.

You know what I said?

But we talked about what it means for doing it right away.

Pat raised the point.

I don't remember how excited Pat got about that because it was something he hadn't thought about.

I mean, he just planned it for the country and the world.

Of course, of course.

As I said, it's naturally a very sensitive position.

Nobody has worked his ass off harder.

Nobody has been more effective in making the breakthrough for the new majority of the coast.

And I would do nothing to hurt him.

My own view, as I told Bob earlier, is that if he could only see his position clearly, that he should not take the risk.

having to leave four or five months ago now, you know, under pressure.

And he should go now.

There's another thing that occurred to me, which John and I do, you know, we were talking a week or two weeks before the election about Colson thinking maybe he'd sue.

Remember, I said Christ under Solomon, he could never sue.

However, it's going to make the press a lot more cautious if he's outside as a practicing lawyer.

Because he's not undersold as a practicing lawyer.

They'd have problems even repeating what they've said previously.

Am I right or not?

You're right.

Also a practicing lawyer, you see.

He'd be moving out as one of the herd.

A lot of people moving out.

In several months, he'd be moving out alone.

At a time when a trial is in the interim, he's got a spotlight on.

He's got the spotlight.

When he moves out, he might start doing things and getting it done.

He doesn't have to leave.

As you said, he's got two months.

He can announce and make the move when the others do.

But he can announce he's leaving.

He can let the wheels start rolling to get himself set up outside to stay in and finish up his job here.

And he can set that thing up.

months just as well as it can, taking six months later.

The reason he wants to stay, I'm convinced, I don't think, I think he's rationalizing it.

I think the reason he feels he wants to stay is it's going to make him look as if we dropped him because of Watergate.

And is that really what it is or am I wrong?

Yes.

I am convinced that he's wrong.

I'm not sure it's going to happen.

He's going to have to focus on himself in the first place.

He isn't tied to Watergate.

And I don't think we are going to say that.

We don't think so.

No.

I don't, because there's going to be too many other people with him.

Oh, oh, but when he leaves, that isn't going to tie into it.

But later on, they're going to damn well tie into it.

Sure, but he's better off to be tied to it outside than inside.

And I think the thing he doesn't realize is the impact, or the effort against it, will be less if he's a former White House person than if he's a president.

My, uh, Pat tells me that she's got a long memo from Mike Barrow and so she's very high on the Lighthouse plans for the next year.

So apparently your lead on that was incorrect.

He wants to stay, she thinks.

No, Mike Barrow.

We've got a little game being played there, too.

We asked everybody, as you know, to work out the plans for their office and Connie Stewart moved instantly to avoid any of those plans being sent to the White House, which is fine.

I wasn't even thinking about her office.

We did it across the board.

And so he just laid out plans for what that was.

So he's doing the same.

He isn't objecting to it.

He likes to see that request.

I raised it with him first.

Does Mike Burrell want to leave?

Yes.

Fine.

He should not be forced to leave because he likes it very much.

I have no objection to forcing him to stay.

I think he's a hell of a good man in that job.

But he does.

I'll be sure that he's indicated to us he wants to leave.

Well, sometimes people just keep on crying.

No, because he's indicated what he wants to do.

I think John would be fine in it, but I don't really feel that John needs to stay.

I think he's had a pretty good run.

He's pretty far down the totem pole.

I think if he can find something for him to do, it would be a good thing to do.

Because when he's so long, you know, and he's a sweet guy.

It doesn't cost anything in terms of, oh, I don't see it and so on.

God, I love the Juan Walker thing.

God damn, that just puts me all together.

That's a good sense of that.

I want to see a lot of other names like that around the system.

We've got so forth.

Well, I know you don't.

And the appointments down there are damn important.

When we get past these problems, we've got a lot of people that I see for a chance for them who's down the way of the others.

Right.

They have one of these state department fairies.

They want to move up.

They come in with the greatest recommendations.

It's a wonderful guy.

I always fight the bastards, but not really, really.

And then one of our guys told me, he's a little bit rough, a little dumb and all that.

God made me go on our side.

You know, I've never done greater wrong.

He just keeps filing adverse reports about the foreign service.

Is there anything I can do?

This is like Charlie Meyer.

I could do you as Bob Hill, I don't know.

Why don't we throw him back in as the head of that left-right coalition?

That's it.

Is he one of them?

I don't know, but I don't think he wants to sit around up there in New Hampshire.

He did it before.

You've got to put somebody in.

I don't understand.

Take a look at Bob Hill, because they say he was a hell of a bastard.

I don't know.

I don't think he's got this cleverness.

We're talking to one state.

That's the problem.

I like this state.

We've been talking to how we do the state.

I've been talking to .

But there are others who

I feel a lot of us have gotten in and talked to a little bit on the street.

Now incidentally, Lodge will have to go now, you know.

Does everybody understand that, or are we going to keep them?

Yeah, it's over 70.

I don't know, I'm just looking at this thing.

It doesn't really make a difference.

Yeah, I don't know anybody that's looking in for anything.

Incidentally, you don't need to call Nelson or Ackerbauer.

I don't know when I should see him, but he should slip in sometime next week before I can see him.

I told him I would see him.

He said he would like to see him.

I think he'll want to talk to you about this grandiose study he wants to do.

And I can spend a few minutes with you and just give you a feel for that.

I don't know what you want to tell him about our plan.

Well, we could probably tell him a fair amount about that plan.

It won't answer his if.

His itch is to get a big sort of a constitutional convention going to rejigger the federal system.

So just follow that on the basis of what we're doing now.

Well, I think what we could do is this.

We could say we would like to have him sit as a member of the advisory panel on domestic affairs, first of all.

And he'd add something to that.

So he'd be a logical one.

Why the member?

Why don't you make him, Charlie, do that?

Do that.

I want to get guys like Crystal and Moynihan and people like that.

We have a chairman.

Well, it's not bad.

Is Bill here?

He'll be coming in a minute.

I want to get over to Laurel before he talks to you.

But then I'll sit down.

Yeah, let me spend ten minutes with you before he comes.

Yeah, but right now he's on penicillin.

Okay.

Go ahead and come over with Bill at, shall we say, four o'clock?

We'll take that moment.

I'd like to be able to come over as soon as I'm ready to, I think, but you're not going to show it.

I bet you're going to show it on the plan.

It will do.

You're going to show it on the plan.

Sure.

It's on the table now, isn't it?

It will show it.

Here's the one that will roll number two on the revision.

Can I give you a copy?

Well, it's a hard thing for Bill and it's a hard thing for us, but

My wife is kind of that way.

You see, John, one of the reasons it's hard for Bill and the other Captain's people, they all didn't get out and do everything they were asked to.

Oh, that's right.

That's right.

And a lot of people bust their ass.

They think they should be rewarded.

Well, that's true.

And they also think they should be repaid.

You can look at it the other way.

They busted their ass in order to repay you for the reward you gave them before that.

Well, some could look at it that way, but I don't know.

I don't think most people do.

Well, it's their duty.

Their duty to bust their ass.

Do you want me to sit in when you talk to them?

Do you want to talk to them alone?

No, I can't do it.

I can't do it on that one.

You're on this one.

Yeah.

Okay, we'll be back shortly.

You can...

You could offer Rockefeller this advisory thing.

He has a tremendous set of resources.

He could bring a lot to it, and so on and so on.

And we want to get fresh views into the domestic policy.

I'm sure he'll give you an enormous clout in terms of the cosmetics and everything we're doing.

We need a little of that sort of thing.

The fight is, we have to go is to tell Rockefeller and the rest that I want the verbatim election return.

So, seriously, we can't have a time of umpteen, a new summer youth corps program and, you know, how do you rebuild our cities?

I've got to get off of this thing.

The chairman of this thing would send a very bad signal to the human events crowd.

The fact that we would put guys like, like, say, Paul and Chris Bolland, those are the

well, or Banfield, or somebody like that, who is a conservative, would send a much more stabilizing signal, I think, and be much more consistent with the things we've all been saying about the next four years.

But to have Rockefeller on there, and maybe a mayor and some other folks, I think would be a logical thing, besides being good from the standpoint of our relations with him.

And he could then introduce this thing to this group.

We provide some federal staff, and we can do some studying on it.

And it's a reorganization kind of thing.

It isn't a program.

It isn't expenditure of money and that sort of thing.

So it is something that we could do, and it's in the direction of revenue sharing.

So I'll work something out for you on it.

You can hear Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday here.

And he's fine.

He's kind of smoking the bear.

He moves around and all that.

But he doesn't run the department very well.

That's right.

I tell you what, Lou showed up in that department very well as hit.

Bob hit.

Bob has really run that department.

He just assisted the secretary.

He could do that, or as a matter of fact, he's shown me enough.

I think he could be undersecretary of one of those departments.

And if you have no objection, that's a nice signal to people, to our old friend, you see.

Well, and Pat's leaving, you know, Pat hit.

She's going to step out of AGW.

So this would be a nice thing.

And it can't hurt anything when we can help our friends do it.

You again have a dependable.

That's the only thing.

That's a Whitaker thing.

You've got dependables in these places that makes a hell of a difference.

Yeah.

Dependable loyalists.

That's why the Malik thing appeals to me.

Yeah.

I'm not sure that we can't make Malik there.

No, God damn it.

We still need him in the Ash thing.

Also, he's going to be there in the White House thing, and he's going to like it better.

He will get, I guess, if you make a straight-up promise, he will get a cabinet position.

He will, Scott.

I'll tell you what.

He's going to be up here in a little while.

I'm happy.

Come back up for dinner.

Right.

To talk about these other names.

Right.

I think.

I think you should.

Right.

I think that's the way to get him.

And I'll say, I don't see any position in the cabinet that you want to present the equipment.

It wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

Yeah.

That's it.

If he were in a little more experience, the Hudson thing.

But he isn't ready for that yet.

Do you think?

I'm afraid he's not.

And that thing, of course, involves so much with mayors, so much with public interest groups, and that kind of thing.

And Frank is not a diplomat.

You have everybody in mind for Frank.

Well, we've got some names, but we don't have anything that really rings your bell.

Nobody can get along with those people, and yet somebody is willing to cut down, cut back, and so forth and so on.

People we've come up with have been mortgage bankers, you know, that kind of thing.

And that is what we need.

But we'll keep plugging at it.

And that's one that we can... Do you think there's a... Just take a second.

Why don't you check into this Collins Boston?

I will.

I sure will.

It's an interesting story.

According to Colson, who's supposed to have been the best mayor Boston ever had, he's an Irish Catholic Democrat.

Well, they have a candidate.

But he certainly has got the political feel.

He's a guy with a practical touch.

Sometimes these Irish politicians are extremely practical.

Well, I think you know that Romney and his guys have run the federal participation in housing right into the ground.

We are at a real crunch point on that.

Well, it's a combination, I'd say, wrongly.

Actually, Ed Brook contributed to it because he offered an amendment which passed to Congress that said that no one in public housing ever had to pay more rent than the equivalent of 25% of his salary.

We've got to change it.

Housing authorities are going broke all over the country because it just isn't enough federal money to make up the difference.

And value changes.

Well, I tell you, I think what you're at right now is a

is the point where you're going to say to people, look, it's cheaper to just hand them the money and send them into the housing market than it is to try to build housing for them, run the housing, operate a housing authority.

How do you hand them the money?

Through a voucher system of some kind.

That's one of the things we're looking at for housing.

Let them go out and rent an apartment.

There's plenty of vacant housing.

It isn't a question of that.

My God, we've got vacant housing all over the place.

We're still building these public housing units.

However, we're not going to choke off the housing movement.

No, we're not.

We're going to encourage it.

As a matter of fact, because people tend to move up in the housing market.

People who can afford it move out into new housing.

And they leave behind middle and lower grade housing.

And you can move your public housing people into that.

The British are doing it.

They're doing it quite successfully in the rent allowance system.

I'm not sure that's the answer you're asking.

Oh, yes.

Well, Congress is going to take up housing, and they're going to legislate something, because they know they're in trouble.

Weinberger has put the clamps on the money for the housing.

Do you think we need Weinberger more in H-E-W than in housing?

Yes.

Or, okay, yeah.

The difference in the housing.

Could this fall that left us, say he's a long guy, could he do the H-E-W job?

I doubt it.

President Martin, I doubt it.

He's a schoolteacher, for the hell of it.

I don't mean that, but he's not a politician.

He's a lecturer.

And I think we're just as well off with his going.

Well, he has for his constituency, which is the city.

He's really a housing man we want.

He's really a city manager type.

Well, it's a business manager type.

I see.

And HUD.

At HUD, when you say you want an Italian Catholic or a Serb or a Trove or somebody, I'm perfectly willing to go along with that, but I'm sure going to fight to get a guy who's halfway decent.

You don't figure Malik is up to that, do you?

Malik is the manager aspect, and I would be happy if Malik would take the job, for instance, as undersecretary.

I'd be happy to set him.

but he won't settle for that, and that's the problem.

This has got to be a guy who can sell the Congress, sell the mayors, sell the housing authorities, be creative, be managerial, and he's got to be a pretty good guy.

Romney's problem was that he wasn't any good on the nuts and bolts, and Van Dusen wouldn't buck him, and so was Van Dusen.

A lot of very

tough recreated work that's got to be done in that area.

I think Coley is a good possibility if you'd be willing to take him.

Why do it?

If he'd be willing to take it.

If that matched up.

He's a kind of guy.

He's vigorous and he's a good manager.

He's a Catholic.

That would be fun.

The only problem, and I like the Western thing,

The only thing that I would even like to see is to kind of find some damn place for one at a time.

Sure, sure.

Well, I'd say a possibility, and that's Solicitor General.

Now, that may not be high enough visibility, but this Chicago lawyer that Bob was talking about, could very well be a traffic solicitor for Solicitor General.

We mentioned a Southern solicitor.

Yeah, yeah.

I like this other thing.

I think what's nailed us down once and for all.

Take Wright out of the University of Texas, who is already a strong, bussing ass guy.

That's right.

I think Wright is that.

I like that.

Or, I'll tell you, there's another guy, and that's Bork.

Hardline conservative law professor.

He's a throwback.

He writes all these papers for the American Enterprise Institute.

Let's have him for something.

Conservatives have him for something.

Yeah.

And one of those, put him in charge of civil rights, if you take it.

Why not?

Where he's cleared to.

Yeah, that's good.

That's right.

The HUD thing, Collins might be just

Just a ticket.

I'll sure check it.

But it's got to be a guy who will tackle this damn housing thing and solve it in a way that doesn't drain the treasury.

There's a problem in this old guy, Brooke.

Of course, you've got a problem.

Brooke is probably calling.

So it's a big blessing for them.

One hand is strong.

Yeah.

Very.

Got heart.

Yeah.

They tell me Eric's a very, he's a short, slight, very bright.

And you have the feeling that he's really turned on.

He just, he radiates bigger.

Yeah.

Could Everly do it?

Yeah, I think Everly could.

Everly was in the housing business with Boise Cascade when they were making money.

and he left there and went to American Standard, he would bring a lot of business ability into a thing of that kind.

He might have the character to do it.

He does not, that's right.

Cooley sounds pretty good.

I think really you could find out there, you've got to put a contagion in it.

Interior's a possibility, we're getting excited about the interior.

Interior's a good chance for a contagion.

What the hell?

There must be somebody out there that's

Well, it just doesn't appear like we're putting an Italian for an Italian.

That's the trouble with transportation.

We won't lock this thing up.

Yeah, that becomes the Italian seat now.

You know, they put another one in there.

We won't lock this thing up until we get you one.

You don't think Carlucci could do it?

Sure.

I wish he were a foot and a half taller.

I mean, he's a little better, but...

He's got a charisma, you know, that he's built up.

Make a note, he's to be offered, Pastor Neal.

All right.

With Romney, he's to be offered nothing.

God damn it, we had this with Romney.

And he was embarrassing us at the time.

He made it very hard.

And we can't, we're not going to go through this on the cricket track again.

Don't you agree?

Sure.

Well, he told you what he wants to do.

You don't have to go out in the department.

But I think with Morton, it's going to become a good choice for him to have a choice with NATO.

The NATO, I think he rated NATO as an important time.

The other thing about there is that, you know, we, with all of these people, we made a mistake and started this idea of giving cap and rank to people, and then at first I get into the UN, and then I, you know, the day you kind of hit NATO.

And we kept the counselors on the county rank and all the rest.

And of course, it's a hell of a thing for them because it means a lot to them.

I have no objection to give it the county rank.

I have no objection to it at this time.

I'd spend that very tenuriously if I were you.

The only reason I'd spend it is because of the reorganization.

But it'll screw up the reorganization.

All right.

I'll do it.

I get your point.

Yeah.

I see that.

I thought of that.

I think the essence of the reorganization is don't do it.

Don't do it.

We'll just simply say that as far as we're not going to have any cabinet positions.

But of course, whenever there are matters involving your department and so forth.

You see, the cabinet becomes functional rather than ordinary.

And you can argue that it's a

Very work-oriented.

You know, it was a sort of a tough time, but it always is.

But we are doing the right thing.

I remember after the 56th election, I was called on to something like that.

I'm aware of that.

The plans made and all that sort of thing.

You have to look.

The position starts and it becomes almost unbearable.

Come here, too.

This was Mom's idea.

Well, Bob and I had a fight together, and I said, what the hell?

And we just said, Captain, this is just Florida, you know, and I was going to Florida, you know.

Looks like we're getting off, but you're in perfect position.

You're way that close.

The halls are full of people down there.

You know, and Bush and Klein and all of them want to talk to us, and so on, and it's impossible to work with them.

It's unreasonable for you to expect to stay long.

I agree.

There's got to be an end to this.

I think there's an end to it.

Frankly, there's an end to it for us.

I know.

I think you have to think harder about whether you really want to go around again with me.

I know.

It's got some negative signals to it.

Yeah.

But it also has... See, at the present time, the reason I want to keep you, Bob, and Henry

I have to have people in the top positions that can run the job for a year.

That's what it is.

You fellas have got it.

You've got control of it and so forth.

At that time, we'll take a look.

Because it is not in their interest.

And so now they have the three of you to stay around.

I'm sure they have.

They're there.

But now I have other ideas.

Well, you see, because basically, you see, you fellas are indispensable in terms of, you know, how many people are there.

Well, how many?

I just appreciate that I can't bring in other people.

I know.

I have no confidence in you.

Well, you're going to take a certain amount of gas because they're going to take a look at my reappointment and say, oh, jeez, another go-around, moribund, domestic, uninspired, all that sort of stuff.

Screw it.

This reorganization is shivering for a long time.

OK. Well, just please know that I want it to be more of it.

Well, obviously, that wouldn't be right.

Of course.

But you shouldn't take the PR key for that.

And new faces would get you around.

New faces also would give you new problems.

Well, I mean, John said, well, how about my program for this?

Yeah.

I know.

John?

Sir?

What are the different programs?