Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 229-012
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 1972 at 10:35 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.
Recording device: Camp David Hard Wire
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/229-012

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] Also, let me tell you that it's good for them.
[0:09] People are going to have a letdown when they're longer in the battle.
[0:14] We always do.
[0:15] And they'll enjoy it.
[0:15] Well, it's good for their husbands, in a way.
[0:18] Right.
[0:18] The thing I was trying to say is that... Oh, that's right.
[0:22] I really thought Rumsfeld's conduct was really quite surprising.
[0:27] Well, I apologize, Steve, for that.
[0:29] I'm sure Paul, I forget I was around and everything.
[0:32] I opened up by saying, I'll support you for dissent.
[0:35] And the son of a gun starts to say, well, I think all of me and the kids have been down and hurt.
[0:41] You know what I mean?
[0:42] Well, and what goes on?
[0:43] It was 180 degrees from what he said down here in the warm-up.
[0:47] I couldn't have been more surprised.
[0:48] What do you think he's up to?
[1:01] Actually, he's an opportunist.
[1:05] And I think he just saw the whole thing and he jumped into it.
[1:08] It would be damn nice to him.
[1:08] Fortunately, he doesn't get anything.
[1:09] There's just no cap at all.
[1:10] So Peter's kind of like, what's this going to do?
[1:11] Well, he has an unblemished record of disappointing me now.
[1:13] That's right.
[1:13] Damn.
[1:13] Well, I just thought that was a pretty sorry performance.
[1:14] It really was.
[1:15] Because I picked particularly one.
[1:15] I said, all right, I'll support you.
[1:16] And then I'll offer him a cripple, bro.
[1:17] Yeah.
[1:18] That would be a terrible mistake.
[1:23] Terrible mistake.
[1:24] Well, that's it.
[1:25] We went through this whole routine hunting down here.
[1:28] I know that he just really took me by surprise.
[1:33] What do you think you should do with the person?
[1:37] I should have gone with the person.
[1:39] Well, I think you should have said, well, it's obvious to me that the staff work hasn't been done on this.
[1:45] Why don't we just, during this meeting, you get with the staff and let's see what the
[1:48] You can usually work out his suggestions and then just kick this the hell out of him.
[2:02] He isn't going to get any.
[2:03] I'm not going to give him anything.
[2:06] What the hell is there to give him?
[2:09] What do you think, man?
[2:09] Son of a gun.
[2:09] I think he's been extraordinarily open-handed with it.
[2:11] And the president, he consistently operates that way.
[2:12] He's dominated the government.
[2:13] He'll cut his nuts off.
[2:14] Yeah.
[2:14] You know what I mean?
[2:14] People see through that.
[2:15] That's right.
[2:15] Political people.
[2:16] That's right.
[2:16] Well, the idea is when I heard he's got a bunch of citizens to work for a year and put up a lot of money and then he'll make his mind up a year from now.
[2:24] I told him he had to make his mind up in his own mind right now.
[2:29] And I know I'm right.
[2:30] Well, I know.
[2:31] I can't imagine people working for him for a year on a contingent basis.
[2:37] You know, but if somebody like Clem Stone or somebody's being asked to put up money, he's entitled to them now.
[2:44] Yeah, what he wants to do is to wait, take a poll, and see what things happen, and so forth.
[2:52] Well, he does that.
[2:53] He's troubled.
[2:54] We've dumped Don now.
[2:57] I mean, he can leave.
[2:58] Okay.
[2:58] And he doesn't realize it.
[3:02] I mean, I think some of these fellows must think that, you know, they... And we need them.
[3:04] So the seller's market is kind of a...
[3:08] Do you think we're doing that?
[3:13] Well, on Rocky, just the main thing, don't have me bring up anything on the state or defense or anything like that, because Henry is, you know, is acting like a goddamn fool here, trying to tell everybody what we're going to do.
[3:28] I see.
[3:29] All right, I just don't want that.
[3:29] And mainly, if you could just keep Rocky nailed down to...
[3:32] something.
[3:34] I don't want this new federalism that he wants to talk about.
[3:37] I think you could spend the time on that and then send him on his way.
[3:42] I'll keep him off the defense.
[3:43] And I'm just not going to get into that anymore.
[3:47] All right.
[3:47] All right.
[3:47] Just stay on the national security thing.
[3:50] We're... Bob was telling me that it's good that it turned out that you don't want Rogers to move from now.
[3:58] So I think
[4:01] But I'm convinced, John, that Henry's own conduct at this time is so curious that just as well that you see that when I really analyzed both him and Rogers, they were both wrong.
[4:27] Rogers really wants to stay on until Henry quits.
[4:28] And Henry wants to stay on until Rogers quits.
[4:30] I can throw it home and home.
[4:32] Don't you agree that's really the heart of the matter?
[4:37] Each wants to win.
[4:39] And Peter can do it that way.
[4:40] And Henry said, well, I'd rather you fire him.
[4:43] Now, would that help us?
[4:45] What is your view?
[4:46] In the public, what is your view?
[4:48] Do you think we can, Rogers?
[4:49] I can do it.
[4:50] I can tell you, Bill, I just don't think it's going to work.
[4:52] Well, I have a story that somebody's a winner and somebody's a loser.
[4:55] Basically because Bill is going to cooperate on the reorganization department.
[5:02] The main thing is Henry is the worst defender in terms of picking people.
[5:05] Look at his goddamn department.
[5:07] The leaks have come from him.
[5:09] But I really am disturbed about this conversation.
[5:14] Well, I think this will evolve.
[5:16] I think the Henry thing will evolve.
[5:19] He's going to take care of himself.
[5:23] I talked to Bush this morning again.
[5:25] Yeah, I heard.
[5:26] Bob gave me a report on him, and I think it's fine.
[5:28] Okay, well, he's talking to Mitchell now.
[5:30] He called me back and gave me an answer this afternoon.
[5:39] Well, Mitchell should get him.
[5:40] And then, of course, there's another one that is a curious thing to me.
[5:44] No, but he's acting totally irrationally, and I think it's because he loves the Cadillac and the travel.
[5:47] I heard about that.
[5:47] One wants to say, you know,
[5:49] It's most of the thing you could do.
[5:52] Yeah.
[5:53] I'll bring Rocky back about noon.
[5:55] Yeah.