Conversation 232-004

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Did you get the briefing paper?

Okay.

How long do you need?

it's a very good uh which i think

I think we must be no illusions in this case of people.

I remember everybody was terribly excited.

We nominated the O and B and Schultz got the big story.

He said Christ is the big story.

Christ, the sun, fire, etc.

I said great, great, great.

I said not worth a shit.

I said it's great for Washington.

New York is the same for the average guy.

It's beautiful.

Whatever it is.

I mean, I couldn't agree more.

And that's why Ziegler thinks it's a big story.

I mean, it's a good story.

It's a big story, but not necessarily a positive one.

Not un-positive.

I think the overall response you see is that he sees only the hot news and doesn't see the negative.

I'd rather have a story about shaking hands with somebody, you know, which Ziegler didn't see.

I used it, but I couldn't see it

So you get it tracked down, please.

uh you have colson go down with you you're going to keep going right yeah i don't give much of a damn about this economic thing i've got to sit and talk to george i am going to but i do i do want to sit down and talk to but i want you and early colson to sit down and talk now about this whole situation with regard to the foundation with regard to the uh with regard to the jet list

uh with regard to uh frankly such matters can we change people in justice and so forth and so on you know what i mean we've we've blown awful hard and a lot of this stuff off and now we're getting to the point where we're running into stone walls i don't know with others as well

I'm talking about those 5,000 or 6,000 assholes that have been at the Schedule C. They've got to work their way down.

But, in any event, it isn't that much I want to talk about, but I do need to get this outside operation set up, so I have a post to go down.

I want to have an in, and if you want to do an in, I want to talk to him anyway, and get his plans.

you know, on the way, and also to steer him away from wrong things, so he doesn't get off on something.

Now, I have a meeting, uh, on Florida, about a quarter of a week, and I have four on Thursday.

Good.

I have no meeting with anybody else Thursday.

Thursday, he'd be free after college.

And he doesn't expect any dinner.

No, sir.

He's, uh...

No, he's going back to Texas.

He wants to come home.

He has to wait for that.

Yeah.

Well, see, he was going to come up to Washington.

It's really easy to be walking there.

I thought, good, he's not displaced.

No, no, not at all.

And I said, you know, if you'd rather wait and come up next week, that's fine.

I said, is it already fine with you?

Well, last we heard was Colorado.

I know.

And then Kissinger called me, obviously, was getting ready to try and talk him into it.

I told him to talk him into it under the terms that it was originally laid out only.

There could be no compromise on the idea of being based in Washington, no compromise on the idea of being ambassador at large with Captain Rank, and no compromise on the delaying six to eight weeks to work it out before you do it.

Either you do it or you don't do it, and it's got to be decided.

I don't know, but I'm sure he did.

He won't be able to get any time.

Thank you.

It doesn't have too much with the size number.

It does with your foundation.

It does as we get into the later stages of the term.

It's going to make quite a difference on getting GSA to do things that we want done.

So that you don't have to go out there and screw around with it.

And Johnson got his bill even not knowing who's going to leave until the last minute.

And it got done within a year or so.

He's got 34 years already.

He can get it funded and planned in the next year or two years after that.

I know everybody's terribly busy, but could somebody get Avery out there now?

Yeah, we probably can.

Or maybe not.

We'll have to do it.

I know we thought of it, but I mean it.

I know we're busy, but I'd like to get that damn thing nailed down.

I don't want to force you around with that.

I don't want to do a goddamn fight about it.

I was a Marine Corpsman.

I'll fight it.

Uh, maybe.

No pushman.

He's not going to fight it.

We had a cousin.

John's what I am, and I don't know anything about it.

Well, they were lying.

Tell John.

See, he probably hasn't thought of pushing.

We don't have great men there.

Something really, really, really, really law-abiding.

And they say that we're going to do this, and they should support it.

They don't need it.

It's not their property.

And that's that.

It's all important.

Get it done in the flush of the victory and not whether you've had three or four investigations.

I can't emphasize too strongly.

I guess you've got an exception, actually.

You have a lot of exceptions, but there's very much a justification.

First, everybody is.

They're looking to their own interest.

Well, it's big to be on that.

It's popular for your skin.

There's a variety of reasons.

You've got the gold and his friends.

You've got the Jerry Borg and his friends.

The Bob Wilson and his friends.

The Dominicks and his friends.

You've got the fellows of law.

The fellows of law.

And, uh, our old people, if it's a goddamn busy, they haven't been able to get Mike out on that.

You know, what the hell we did.

I know they're trying.

Because he has nothing else to do.

He has a whole crew there to do it.

It's bad working at it.

I don't think you can get it done.

People aren't ready to use it.

No.

I think you're very good.

I'm concerned about getting it done.

I don't know.

That wouldn't be for a death.

That would only be for seven mothers.

You prefer Gray at Navy rather than at NATO?

Yes.

USA, not OEP.

No.

Mellon's got the breadth for OEP, right?

He doesn't realize it.

He doesn't understand it.

But OEP is an enormously better job.

It's in the White House.

You're around talking to people like that.

Like I've never gotten off his ass.

I've read Henry's papers, you know, he can participate in those meetings.

He really can.

Say something.

And Malik doesn't have that kind of experience.

He's not a foreign policy.

Not at all worried about that at all.

OEP, I'm going to say, for somebody I really want, I'm going to say, hello, John.

Hello.

Four hour meeting.

You understand?

It's going to have great effect.

He can fly.

He can sit in his ass any place he wants.

Or he's going to stay in a hotel.

Or he's not going to stay.

But then he'll stay out for a while.

Or play over.

And come over to keep his game.

But he'll, he'll, you know, like I did.

What I like to do...

to work all morning long, until 1 o'clock anyway.

And so it was a big Friday morning to sit down and go over the damn nut-cutting.

Not only the nut-cutting, but the middle-of-the-yard thing, what we're going to do.

I'd like to get, for example, at such things as Roger's and Paul's on what the hell we're going to do.

I think there is, and Colson does have a point.

The problem is you need that to sit on top of it.

And that's, you see, the reason that I say that is this.

We're not going to have, we trust May 8th or Cambodia, but we will have some times.

They're going to be fighting the opposition Congress sometimes.

We'll say, well, Christ, we've just got to muster a little support for this veto message or something.

And who do I call in?

Do I call Irving and then tell him to do it?

Hell no, he won't do anything.

You know that.

Never has.

Who do I call now?

Ben will be gone.

Eric will be gone.

Colson's gone.

Lyon's gone.

Bench is gone.

Rumsfeld's gone.

Who do I call?

Is that an actual committee?

No shit.

I mean, they're out there.

But we'll have a lot of things like, if we do this right, we'll have a lot of things like that that we'll produce for us.

But you've still got to have somebody who's responsible in the White House.

That's right.

because we need some lines of labor other than through Brennan.

I'd like a fellow like that around.

Are we going, incidentally, with Brennan?

Well, I think so.

We won't know for a little while because the thing is, we've got to get a security clearance cleared.

The first thing we want is to get a guy from that area nominated and have a bad bounce on the shuttle and put it on the ambulance.

The papers are not relevant because unless we're going to give them a big leak like we gave the other, did you get Colson on that on our cell?

Yes.

I'm talking to Colson.

It'll help get your own thinking far-flung.

Colson can tell you.

He has done a lot more than John has any conception of.

I don't think John realizes how much he has stirred up up there, you know.

And don't think it hasn't been helpful to have the W come in.

There's no question.

And George Meany coming out and all that.

I mean, he's on that one.

And also, you know, he's the fellow that is pushing stuff up to that hill.

If we get any goddamn statements.

Now, John, again, doesn't do this.

We put it to him time and time again, but it isn't pushing up there to the hill.

Who's going to do it now?

Or I say, God, I say, can't somebody say something?

You see, you can't run the counter-attacker.

You can't depend on Bush.

Bush is no attacker.

No, but let me say that we make a mistake also in putting it quite in the... As soon as you set up somebody who does it, then everybody else drops the responsibility for it.

We have a lot of people who could be doing it who don't because they say, let the Arab guys in on it.

Just remember what I said today, and then the time comes up.

You gotta have the guy you can push the time comes up.

I don't want it, I don't want them to know that they have to have a response like that.

God damn it.

We have got to have somebody around here who's, it's his ass, if it isn't God.

No, we can't let it go.

No, we are working it out on I think the right basis which is to get a small group in there.

that is responsible, but not try to put the entire capability into a separate office and let everybody else sit on his ass and say, why don't they do it?

And he can pull all the PIOs in and tell them.

They all can't do that.

I don't think that.

Well, that's not the thought.

The deal with programming PIOs, the thought is that we structure the press office.

What do you mean?

With Dale or the couple who do the post?

Oh, hell no.

We're setting up a replacement for the Colson office to do the Colson thing.

That's what Colson's supposed to be working on.

That was the whole point of this staying on for two months.

I think Boston can be much better at what we're talking about is doing, which is moving the Ziegler thing as the domestic guy who handles the PIOs.

And that's where you get the

use of the government out of the White House, rather than just sitting in the White House trying to cover everything and having the other people say the wrong things.

And Frost, this is, Frost sees it as a good way of doing things.

I'd like to have Frost continue to work in the press, though.

He will.

And that's what, like, Colson, Colson and what?

The Colson office.

That's Colson.

Otherwise, the outside groups.

Otherwise, the outside groups maintain contact with the... Colson right now.

It was his move.

He can help with his foundation.

That's our law office, too.

Absolutely.

One of the reasons I want him down there, too, is I want to give him visibility now.

I've heard his VR walk, right?

Right now, I'm getting him down there.

He's down there.

He went on that flight.

And we would, you know, right now, you know, we've got a little idea of what he's... We've got some goddamn questions for us.

He clearly understands me.

Would you check quietly with my office to see Mr. Bruce?

I think you can check it.

You can check this.

Accountant.

Rex, come.

Just say Rex is the person who wants to get a report on the complete shot.

I'm sure he did follow up.

He was going to come follow up with Dylan, but he's a bit cranky at that point.

We've got a lot of drop things, but we have a hell of a problem sitting in the chest.

I think you ought to call Bush today, and then I can call you over Saturday.

call in and say, we've got a hell of a break.

We've got a hell of a break.

The president, in a long shot, he has to go to Florida.

He called Bush and said, and put it to him hard.

Bush said, well, I wanted you to do it, and Dole will support him.

What'd you say then?

Dole, and he wants to be sure Dole will support him.

He didn't want to come in for a fight.

He didn't want to make a fight for him.

But he'll take it.

He'll do it.

And he says, however, that he couldn't lay him down himself, but it would have to be, it has to be on January the 20th, you know, but you can't leave that position open.

Is that a sound order?

Yes, I think we should put it to him right now.

Or should we not take two bites?

No, I think we ought to do it now.

I don't think we should do it right now.

And then I would go on to say to do it now.

Bob, the next step is for you, at the earliest possible time, say, at your time, you can call Bush and say that you support him.

And then you make a statement.

You know that you're going to recommend that he be, that you have, you know, and he's got to come back and say, well, I said I'd come back and talk to the president in two weeks.

You can say it won't hold that long.

Don't you think so?

The light of the year.

his attitude is not rational, basically.

He's working terribly hard.

He has worked hard, I think, and he's probably got a woman problem again.

And I think the other thing is that, quote, 500,000 miles, 100,000 miles.

I'm rushing around.

I have the speeches here and there.

Of course, he's joking and everything.

But the point is, what he is doing there is get into the car, and I want to stay three months.

And I've got to go back and check with the people in Kansas

about what the hell I do about the National Committee.

You know, I just want money.

Did Mitchell have any struggle with people in Kansas?

Was it doing any good to build a backfire on that?

No.

Get around.

He was here for the execution.

He was talking about Mitchell.

Very tawdry performance.

In every respect, in every respect, there was no grace

I wonder if probably the problem is that we really get space and we, I guess, I guess we miss the Mitchell Club right at the moment, don't we?

No, the Mitchell Club would have been totally ineffective.

People would have been like that.

I don't think you'd get, you'd get anywhere.

Well, Mitchell could have finally done it, but then you would have had a mess.

Mitchell would have turned you in all the way up.

No, I mean, he could have done it now, or he could have done it if he were here.

He could have finally said, all right, let's go.

Then the guy would go out and say, just like he logged in there, I don't want people to say all of an enemy, like, walking papers.

Well, I'm not so sure you want to push off this, or force him that fast.

You don't need to.

Fine, I'll just say that that's it.

He ought to be

Then he ought to spend it before we meet.

But our meeting is two weeks away.

I'd like her to come back to Camp David next Wednesday.

I don't want to get this message from Vietnam.

Take the charge now.

You can also tell him that you should know that Jerry Ford had raised the subject to the national conference, but he spoke very highly of it.

He also said that when a replacement, without indicating time, but when a replacement was made and we could get Bush, that that would be a ten strike.

Ford already wanted to talk to him.

He's all for Bush, so he knows he's got a man.

It's okay.

Don't say anything about it until we get it properly staged.

But it's all set.

It's all set.

Now, Bob, it's your responsibility to work it out, to come back and see the president on next Friday, next Thursday, if you can.

It would be preferable if the president could see you on Friday.

Otherwise, that moves it up so it's not quite two weeks, it's a week and a half.

Fair enough?

How does that sound to you?

I mean it.

I think that'll work.

Then you've got to do is tie him up.

Just say that I've offered it to him, and I said, we'll know this for you.

So that's, and the argument is that he doesn't seem to buy or perceive, is that the whole key to the tone of this is his taking the initiative rather than others.

But it's gotta be clear to him that if he doesn't take the initiative, it's gonna be taken otherwise, and the only person that's gonna hurt is him.

Yeah.

And so are you.

I'm gonna say, now, I'm not gonna talk about pushing anybody myself, but I want you to go forward, raise his name with me, see?

The old man said the name has come up several places and got his matter back this way that yesterday when Ford saw the president.

He raised the name.

He called it.

Obviously, we'd be leaving before getting an adequate replacement.

Ford said, one, give me a full-time man, just a dole and a half.

He said, dole and three, put it that way.

I told him he'd have a second.

I said, well, you know, he's got a fine.

And I didn't tell him.

And he came up independently.

He said, well, if you could get Bush.

And I told him I did.

I think a few calls around the country have built a relationship.

You ought to get your own line out publicly.

The main thing is, Bob, you ought to say very, very soon that there should be a permanent chairman and that you think that George Bush would be a great permanent chairman.

You should say that.

By the way, if you have other thoughts about it, it's very clear.

You've got to play it by ear.

You've got to make it on the basis that you've got to see that he won't have any problem with any of that.

Where he'll come back is, that's fine.

I agree with all that.

It should be all that.

Bush this time shouldn't be in January, it should be in May.

We cannot, can't do that.

Because Bush can't hang on until May.

And we can't do that because you can say the police is in a hell of a stir under those circumstances.

I cannot leave that U.N. for one moment.

I can't have Bush's name bandied around.

After the 19th Bush, once Bush is selected, it's got to be known that Bush landed and we've got to know when I got that.

And I have to pick another man for the job.

I've got to go forward so that there will be no lack there and no lag there because of the Mideast problem.

You say the Mideast problem.

What the hell?

It is right now.

I cannot leave.

I've been begging for one minute.

It's way too late.

It would be a great coup for me if I got the president there.

That's all they've done.

They never think about what would it do to the president.

And that goes right up to your dear, intimate, loyal friend, Elmer Boat, who thinks it would be a great thing for him to have you dedicate his library, and it refers to him what it would do to you, and incidentally to his library.

It would be a goddamn disaster.

Tar is old forever.

But they don't.

They just think, Jesus, wouldn't it be great if we could get the president there and everybody would say, what a big deal.

Bob, what can we do?

I want to talk to Pat about it tonight, about what I do on January 1st.

I don't mean to be sitting in Florida.

I certainly can't be sitting in San Clemente and not go to that damn game.

That's for sure.

I don't want to go to San Clemente.

I just don't want to be out there with a drug.

If I'm in Florida, I can go on over there.

I think they'll understand.

Just for the couple days there, I think you should go to the parade.

Go out the day before, be there for the parade and the game, and then come back the next day.

People don't think you have any problem.

And I've been trying to watch for that.

The question of the president being together with his wife and not being together with his wife.

We've been together a lot.

We've done good pictures together a lot.

You've had her position is such that she's expected to do things on her own.

And honoring her is a hell of a good note.

It loses all of its note if you're there.

Also, if I'm there, honoring me isn't quite the right thing.

You should go to a football stadium and be on it.

Pat Nixon will get a hell of an ovation in that football game.

You would get some negative, and the negative would get played.

You would get very much.

Between SC and Ohio State, you're not going to get very much.

That approach, the good capacity, and the crowd is basically right.

The rules, the tournament people, it's quite a thrill.

I want her to get the thing and it's her soul, not mine.

I think he is.

You understand that.

Ohio State might want to say Ohio State's grandson.

There's things like this a little more I think would be helpful.

I don't consider that good stuff.

We deserve, frankly, the country wants to see a little of that.

That's our majority out there.

The way the region isn't done

That, as you well know, that just ain't professional.

But there's a nature to a little more professional work at the present time.

Do you not agree?

Yeah.

You know, as you know, I'd like to come back to the story about the way they were handling it as well.

that was you know i meant that ford ziggler is i mean he's got to worry about those i like things about the washington discovery but i mean the washington principal okay which was very juicy

he would have gotten the real feeling of what really mattered Monday, was not what they were talking about in the hot news, which was the fact that, uh, that Connelly, that's correct, but what was really the feel of that was what the Rotary guy did, gentlemen.

That's, Severin picked that up, that's been, that's, there's been several feature pieces, you know, on that, makes up a way for that to happen.

Thank you.

I get a little look at that celebrity thing, because I just want to be sure we don't screw that one up, in terms of being sure that our friends are invited.

I don't mean just that, I mean my old friends too.

But God, I would think he'd have to be there, Bob.

I'm surprised he still won't.

Well, you know, he stayed on stage.

What would you have in mind?

Can you

And you put somebody on top of that, who can top off getting, I know you have no confidence in the leader, but if you get somebody in charge of that, who's a front and down fellow, who understands show business, and you know what I mean, who will be thinking of that and the parade and so forth, who understands it, you see that's the thing I think you lack at the present time.

I don't know.

I think we need a master of ceremonies or something for that, just like we did for the convention.

What about our man?

thing that I didn't realize had been said in the motion, but it's rocketing down the road, which is something that Ben should have cooked up, which is honoring Californians in the administration dinner at Blair House on December 10th.

I remember Bob has stared at her after his meeting with you.

The invitations apparently are out.

Oh, I'm sorry, Saturday.

I don't mind, I don't mind, but why did he do such a thing without even asking me about it?

Black-tie dinner.

What?

It's the California Power Structure, obviously.

Hosted by Firestone instructor Otto Miller, Darius Keaton, and Carter.

They've got the bullets up and so it's their allowance.

They can't do journal effectiveness.

Call coming start, please.

Drown.

This is the Californians.

We want to honor the Californians.

They should give the dinner, apparently, and then you should just, you've heard about it, you should not come to the dinner.

I don't know.

In fact, it must be a fundraiser for a bench.

It must be.

What else?

You know anything about it?

Would you tell Henry, kick Henry into Hague, and get him over to Hague, and say that Bob Hogue is very disappointed that nothing has been done to follow up on getting him to China?

What really teed him off was that he got a postcard from Dave Mahoney, who did get in.

Of course, he put Dave over there.

So it's got more for us than Dave had.

Dave was loyal and everything.

I know that.

Probably that had nothing to do with him thinking Bob wants to promote North.

But Bob's film that he did when he went to Russia years ago was a fantastic success for both countries.

Bob wants to go in with him and do the rest of it.

Well, we'll just make the next day's announcement.

That's not bad either.

about is they want to have two professional entertainers at the dinner.

Jonathan Winters, Foster Brooks, and I don't think either one of them supported it.

The answer is no.

And I don't know that much of anything.

No.

No, no, no, no, no.

Nobody has ever been entertained at the White House or any of themselves.

And it's like, would you get that to Carmen?

After that nice little Nancy Hanks or whoever she was.

unless they support or respond.

And I mean nobody, right?

I have absolutely nobody, and certainly nobody that opposes.

You know, it's only those who... Also, we've got a hell of a long list, a long list that haven't been there, including, you know, that nice old guy, that champagne music guy and so forth that want to come there.

There are a lot of old guys, but God damn it, let's have them.

The Carpers, I know, we can have them.

one of the things that was a little disturbing to me was that play we went to

The producer was the same son of a bitch that produced that two gentlemen in Verona.

He had led a riot, or a protest, in the House Gallery on Vietnam.

And that was a look very well known.

He had the front area come up during the play.

I mean, he was young.

I talked to Ron and I liked to do something at the inauguration, you know, and so forth and so on and so on.

Now, here's a guy who was four on guard, who was a radical.

He's a leftist.

I didn't like the play anyway.

And we should have known.

I mean, you see, no one didn't set that one up.

No one didn't set that one up.

Nobody should have asked for that.

If you'll recall, you had your family in, and you didn't want anybody in it.

We got, what's her name, the little one.

And I thought the man must have known about it when we were writing him the law firm.

He said this is the best play of Tom.

Well, I think he knew where you were going with it by then.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

But he should have told me that it's the best play of Tom.

It was by a left winger.

That's my point.

And, incidentally, it was all about Tom.

As I drove down to him at the Secret Service coach, this guy, we're not going to have a picture of him.

We ain't going backstage for a picture with that cast.

We don't know such things, but there's got to be a checkpoint.

That's why I've got to get them to close to me.

That's an entirely different thing about things.

I feel so strongly about what he's covered.

All these people, I really do.

And that's not how I want anybody to match.

I don't want anybody to match.

God damn it, why build that house?

You couldn't be more right.

That's one where we need to think, and you need to call me and fix it, but that's one time.

There's no way really to get a hold of that except for me to ride it all the time.

Because that's the kind of stuff that oozes in under the door, sneaks in through the woodwork, and you can't plug all the holes.

And the only way they're going to be plugged at all is in life.

The thing I'm desperately concerned about is this.

We said we've got four years.

Before we know it, we'll be four days.

That's our look back on what the crisis we've done.

Now, the one good thing we did was take a vacation after the election.

That's it.

i don't know if peterson wanted to stay

Who the hell wanted to leave?

Lamb, lamb.

You can see how much trouble we're having.

Even taking the hardest possible action.

He would have stayed.

Of course he would.

And all the rest, they would love it if you said this.

And if my brother said it wasn't that nice, that everything is so killing.

And if my brother said, what the hell did we accomplish by this?

I'm not sure of our reaction to the country thing.

But there I tend to disagree.

I think maybe the country doesn't give a shit whether it's a

Nobody was telling me that the generally that it's changed and it's bad, you know, and all that bullshit.

So I guess it's a hell of a lot of negative, you know.

What's your view?

Is it that bad?

No.

You know how to be good, just by, but it's there again.

I think we were saying, I think we said we wanted to crash today.

We've got a real problem here.

He said the first three were good, but he said there were no new faces.

players that we have right now.

That's a good point.

My point is, that shows you, though, that you can shake the earth, and it wouldn't be enough unless you have an earthquake.

Two stations up.

In fact, we've got three.

That's new, too.

That's what's bigger, because they've really understood, and they're making a, see, that, because you weren't about the press there.

I think you're absolutely right that people don't really care that much about who's there.

I do think, though, that the people do.

You do get a very special kind of feeling, not the specifics, because they don't matter, but the feeling that you are really willing to do something.

They don't know what you're doing, or why, or what difference it makes, but they like it.

which is, by God,

They're already calling it a budget card.

They have another name after that.

It's another, it's the same kind of thing, but it's a new, it's a different appellation of that sort that they put on Limerick, which is just great.

And Limerick, they all are, in their scholarly way, thinking they're hurting the government.

are saying, well, this is a clear signal that they're not going to, you know, there's not a social planner in the AGW.

Mr. Nixon's put in a man who's known for his hard-line approach to good, solid management.

And they're reading the Weinberger signal, and Weinberger did a little, you know, it was very, very good.

And he did a hell of a good clip.

I was just saying, you know, because I didn't think I should have used it.

What did he say?

He said it was good.

Oh, yeah.

You know, why would you bring a businessman in?

Do you think if you're so good at business, you're coming into government, would Nixon be good at business?

And he said, I don't think so.

I've never thought about Nixon being good at business.

He's superb in the business he's in, which he's saying.

And the point here is that what we're going to try to do is get this thing run right.

And he's an impressive fellow.

And that's all that matters.

You don't need to go beyond that.

We're just trying to get around.

No, not at all.

wasn't exciting on that stage and he ended up with a good little laugh you know he said that each place i've been i would like to say that there's more that i could do at hew but uh i found that president nixon every two years calls me in and makes me an offer i can't refuse they laugh you know he made it kind of a funny thing but but he hit the point that uh

He had always been for a strong defense.

He said, at the time I'd been at H-E-W, I have never taken the position that money should be diverted from national defense for social programs.

And I believe in a strong defense.

So you get the feel of these people.

I have to say, and actually, I really feel that I have a more, the type of follow I'm thinking of, I have to say, we're up on top of the mountain Monday.

There is a story that could be one hell of a story.

There are a dozen.

I don't know what it is for one thing.

But there's a dozen stories out of that.

I don't mean the words.

I mean the feel.

You know what I mean?

Because it's only...

It isn't the kind of thing that the Ziegler or more or more Tex McCrary or anybody else would accomplish anything.

You did it.

You did it, McCrary.

Can't we share?

We have been.

Yeah, there's no problem.

I've checked on that, too.

There is no hearing.

There may not be any hearing.

And now it looks as though they may drop the whole thing.

Why?

Because it doesn't go anywhere.

Well, who's got the whole thing?

This guy will find out about this goddamn badass and got me.

Well, yeah, he has, but I don't think that's what's doing it.

I think what's doing it is Kennedy's not going anywhere.

I think it's being dropped on the merits, not on anybody getting to anybody.

Well, it's on our bridge, frankly.

It doesn't matter who gets to whom.

If the Kennedy flag thinks they've got something, they're going to go with it.

If they don't think they've got something, they don't.

What about those our own friends, like Glenn Bell or Mathias, that are calling for investigations?

Percy?

Yeah.

Again, if it doesn't go anywhere, they're not

The other thing is if you are interested in having it investigated and not doing it.

Well, no, no.

The best thing if you are interested is to have Dean write out that nice little statement.

Now that I can mail it to all my friends.

Now, believe me, I know Erlichman hasn't understood this.

Nobody's understood it.

You do.

Bob, I've got to have a little statement.

And I can say, all right, that is the statement.

I want you to keep the closest touch with Colson.

I'm not going to be able to do it.

You see, Bob, I don't have things to talk to him about.

Your job is to see that Colson does not feel out, right?

I want him to feel in, because he's a hell of a valuable property.

There isn't anybody in our whole shop that's even one-third of the man.

So, it's a lonely fight because they all, you know, they're... We're trying to get a colonist.

It wouldn't be announced today, you know.

That's right.

If it hadn't been for Colson, we wouldn't have had that, had the Italian colonist.

But we did get that colonist.

That's right.

Colson got that colonist.

Thank you.

The Catholics.

If it hadn't been for Colson, Crowell would be my great friend.

That's right.

God damn it, we've got to realize that.

Ehrman didn't do that.

Harper didn't do that.

That's right.

Cole didn't do that.

That's right.

None of those people

just got to realize that we needed a dole and needed a McGregor.

Understand?

That's the thing I've got to get him crying.

We've got to do the committee to re-elect.

The committee to re-elect to its great credit did something that Colson did not do.

They did the young people.

That was a hell of an achievement.

And that brings me to reach.

It's a loss.

He must not come into the government.

He's got to be out there organizing somewhere.

Ford likes him.

Jerry Ford likes

I think it'd reach the goal of the House campaign, not the Senate.

The House campaign.

Not a big run.

That is where agency is.

I want you to feel that, Bob.

See what I said?

I sure do.

I want to set up bank planning committees all over the country.

I'll tell them how to build 60 districts.

Goddamn it, it'll reach my bill.

That'll be what it is.

Young, young, young, young, young people.

And Blacks, not Blacks, but Mexicans and Italians and Poles.

Irish and a few Protestants, but all young.

I hit Jerry hard in the back.

Nobody over 40 should run for the Congress.

Nobody over 50 should run for the Senate.

Do you agree?

You're going to ask them, but we should support them.

I'm going to say that myself.

I'll tell you why I can say it.

I can't say people should retire so that'll kill George Maynard.

And I'll say, nobody should run for the Congress if he's over 40 years of age.

Candidates are 25 and 30 bracket.

And nobody should run for the Senate if he's over, maybe I'll say 45.

What then, Jeff?

40, 50, 80, 50.

Right, so, I'll talk to you about that in a minute.

I wanted to sit out there grousing around the goddamn awkward and awkward and awkward guy.

I cannot send it to NATO and then change NATO.

NATO cannot be changed.

The European community, maybe, but I want hearts in there.

In the event that this other jackass doesn't take it.

He's talking about those self-centered.

He said, well, it would look like a patient political ploy if you were to give me just some assignment, you know, for a while and I go out.

But then he wants me to be Secretary of Transportation.

We hope you understand that.

You've done all you can do.

I think you've got to let it take you to Geneva or whatever you want there.

Go back to the Hudson and the economic community.

That would be a good plan.

Unless the other guy takes that and closes it off.

Then Hodgson goes to Geneva.

That way he's not going to remember himself.

That's just too damn bad.

That's the bridge to the game.

Whether you offer him the cost of living or not.

I didn't get him OEP.

That's the other thing.

John, here is one where he could handle disasters and he stays out of, and he sits in the National Security Conference at a council and can get some board policy experience in this area.

And I can change this later.

And that's what I think we really ought to undertake.

Where do you go to school?

Harvard, Stanford.

Stanford.

Public schools in Northern California.

Mission 9 in San Francisco.

Air Corps in Japan and Korea during the war.

Which war?

The war.

Which one?

Japan and Korea.

Sounds like Korea more.

Occupation forces.

Japan and Korea.

He was a staff sergeant.

He enlisted after he graduated from high school.

Good.

Didn't go to college.

Then came out and got a B.A.

in economics with a great distinction at Stanford.

An M.S.

in mathematical statistics and a Ph.D. in economic research.

B.A.

in capitalism.

Good.

Economic consultant.

Then joined Union Oil in 53 the year after he got out of, well, before he got his Ph.D.

Right.

Spent at Union Oil in economics planning and research.

Then B.P.

in corporate planning.

He handled the merger with Pure Oil and became head of the Pure Oil division, ran that.

He's all three years, then went to the 76 division, which is their marketing operation.

He's obviously superior in the question, that's why he'll be below it.

I don't know where, I haven't had a chance to talk to John, because he left after meeting, I don't know where, when he just came out.

He wants to keep even Griswold.

And I just can't keep Crystal Grizzle the inheritance because I'm being a Harvard distinguished man.

But I got that.

He said, here's all I need is my background in politics, which he's an absolute minister.

He's quite an alert.

And he's a straight army, and I don't think he can let it do it.

He's probably right on directing the Ambrose as deputy attorney general.

So you give him that.

You say, you're right.

We won't do that.

We'll do what Peter Bay has said.

I'll tell you, if Peter Bay wants to do it, he can't do it.

The real question is whether he wants to.

The accounts on Peter Bay relate more to, and it's not fair because I don't know it that well.

The question is when you put it to the real key.

I told him, he called me again last night and said, should I follow up on Peter?

I said, hell yes.

Get a reading.

The real question to me, and I haven't talked to John since then, is that, what did Faye say when you raised it?

If Faye said, I'd give my left nut and three toes to take that, and I'm on my way up to talk to you now, then I'd say put him in, because he'd be great.

If he said, geez, I don't know, I'd have to sell a boat, and I was re-furnished.

If he really wants an EP sensation,

If he's cranked up kicking and screaming for the good life, then he won't be worth a goddamn because he won't like it here.

And what do you think of the dean?

The dean, I think, would be damn good as deputy attorney general.

I don't think he'd be worth a damn as attorney general.

So now we're here.

I can see his attorney general better than his deputy.

The problem is here, the early one is basically the man that ought to be attorney general.

He doesn't want to be attorney general.

He's...

wants not to be attorney general in the absolute worst kind of way.

You've got to hear the candidate.

You know, the most important position I'm filling, I understand, is my personal relationship with Sue.

She's infinitely better than you guys.

I mean, what we do eight months from now, that's what I'm thinking.

I think eight months, it's going to take Casey a couple of years to do what he's got to do.

Because it isn't just a matter of moving people around.

It's a matter of hammering it into shape after you've done it.

I've heard all around about the state of the yield and the rest.

I didn't tell them I wasn't going to do it.

I had to go, you know, start building the backfire.

Anything you tell them, you know, go water now that you were keeping findings.

So all those guys, they have no way of keeping them out of shot.

There's a front page story in the Washington Post.

I saw it.

The same thing.

He says he won't, but he doesn't think that his guys are unable to keep going.

The rumors, I'll tell you, they're so screwed up on the rumors on this stuff that anything that comes out doesn't matter if that one is right or wrong.

All right.

Take another assignment.

Well, I just didn't know.

I'm going to talk to him about that.

He will be here.

I'm going to take another assignment, which will be announced on air to another assignment.

Yeah.

I don't really feel it should.

I think you can just, I think, you know, he's here.

I just don't want to, I just, Frank is not screwed on tight enough to have a, you know, really intelligent conversation unless I've got something specific at the time.

Fine, write his ticket up, and I think he should stay on that date.

line officers.

That's right.

I'm going to try hard to find another treatment because a guy, not in his own role as schedule planner, but in the role he took for the last eight months as a guy to pull together idea type people and move them into executable ideas.

And, you know, he's got that whole human touch stuff and all that, but we can make some money out of it.

That's right.

We can find a guy.

It's very hard to find him.

Well, we don't have anybody inside.

We haven't got Ron Walker.

Ron Walker.

Ron Walker doesn't have that name at all.

Kodos doesn't have it at all.

They're both...

They're operators.

Operators.

Jacob's not an operator.

No, I know.

We used him as an operator, but that wasn't where he was good.

He was good.

That's his...

He's awful good on the idea side.

We can still use him from the outside.

That's not... We need somebody inside.

Yeah, we will.

Well, there may be somebody inside that we don't... See, I didn't realize Chapin would be good in that until we started burbling some of it out.

Well, my idea of using... Well, I'll talk to Pat about Dakota's thing.

She'll buy that when she wants to do it.

But I'll try.

I'll try to sell it.

Maybe that's a better way.

Maybe that's a better way of doing this.

Except for her staff thing.

I'll tell her that this fight I'll try to be honest with you.

She should just say...

They don't mean to be farted around.

God damn it, they're going to be farting when they're coming in to see a grown-up person.

Well, I'm just as good at farting around when I'm doing it.

But he cannot do it with a woman.

I know, he can't do it with a woman, and he can't do it with the lower echelon types of life.

I mean, he just isn't that kind of person, you know.

Carmen is great talking to people.

He is just one, you know, enthusiastic talker.

Don't overlook petting him.

I mean, Garmin ought to bring people in sometimes.

Yep.

He's just a lovely guy to bring them in.

That's what I would have visualized my brother for.

He can't have done it so well, but we can't have him.

But don't overlook Garmin for that sort of thing.

I mean, I agree with you.

It must be an older person, but Glenn is my friend.

Sure, he's Jewish, but that's no problem.

He doesn't...

He's just so enthusiastic and

Keeping him on the wavelength.

I know you want somewhere to...

Anybody who is.

Anybody who's coming in.

Do the signing stuff and so forth.

He can do the checking out on that.

Use Alex for... Basically, Alex should take over from you a lot of your crap that you're having.

But be sure you don't give him anything where he has to deal with people.

He's not very good at it.

Not Hughes.

No military man's worth a shit dealing with people.

Don Hughes is pretty good at it.

Well, as a matter of fact, very good at it.

Very good.

Alex is a lot better than Hughes because he's much less rigid.

He's more, he's just as diligent.

But see, Alex, he had his last couple years where he was a diplomat, not a military man.

I'm sure you're right.

In Australia.

I'm sure.

What else is a politician?

I am very high on Alex, understand?

But I know that he can't handle certain kinds of people.

I believe that.

There are a lot of people that are like Whitman.

Let me say that.

He would like to move out.

I don't believe it.

He knows he's been underutilized.

That's why I want him to upper-utilize.

I don't think...

I think for a while, he would make him an assistant to the president.

Is that what he is now?

No, he's a deputy assistant.

Well, maybe a special assistant.

It's not like the other...

He's a deputy assistant.

A special assistant to the president.

But he was administrative assistant.

So he was sort of a...

Do you want to start doing that?

I don't know.

I don't want to get into a lot of... Others are going to say political assistant.

Others are going to say PR assistant.

Others are going to say editorial assistant.

You can't do that.

I don't think so.

I'll tell you one thing.

You've got to have somebody with the name.

Are you going to use the term appointment secretary?

in a different way, Rose, particularly, and all the rest.

And here's somebody who's buttoned down but nice.

Could Steve do that?

He checks it all out.

But Steve is so nice with people, that soft voice and everything.

But I like to get the goddamn appointments, frankly, so that Rose doesn't get at me with it so many.

You know, Steve, oh, I have yet to find anybody who didn't like him.

Sorry, I really haven't.

It takes an unusual fellow

I also want bringing people into me.

A soft person.

A bucked down person, but one that's nice.

I need that.

Now, it must be older than Steve, but it should not be Alex.

It's got to be a guy that, I mean, it's got to be a bright John Decker.

You know what I mean?

A very bright John.

But that was not going to want to start in there.

Anyway, it's Tom Martin, I think, is exactly that.

So he warms them up, makes them feel, gets around them, like Dorothy Cox used to get around them, and Rose, when she was much younger, used to do it.

And it means, well, hell of a lot.

Steve Rebetzel.

Everybody thought Steve was a little bit nuts.

He had a fourth grade education.

He spoke with a terrible Italian accent.

I received more letters when I was vice president about Steve than I might.

He wasn't any member of the staff in eight years.

More letters.

Not because he didn't speak that way.

But God damn it, he made those people that came to that damn old, that damn little office of the vice president feel that it was the second coming of Christ.

I want somebody showing people around and showing them the capital.

Here's the president's local office and so forth.

You can't do it in a business line, but you've got to do it as if you're seeing it for the first time yourself.

You know, I need to see provincial.

You see what I mean?

Doing that sort of thing.

And that's where you can use somebody outside that isn't very smart, but just loves people.

They've got to love people enough.

They've just got to love people to do that job.

So it looks a little key.

That's a hell of a job.

I mean, people want to come out of the office and so forth and let them feel it's this.

That's why you're sending Niedecker to the West Wing, the East Wing.

Because Niedecker basically is, you know, he's enthusiastic and bouncy and everything.

He'll make everybody think that they've just had a hell of a visit to the White House and the President's closest friend.

Put the soft matter on it.

It'll help you too.

You need soft people out there.

I don't know.

Maybe we need one.

I want to be sure we use Franklin.

She was the only woman that impressed me.

Well, several impressed me.

What about Barbara Franklin?

I think there is where you need a little pollution stroke.

I mean, women of the administration.

If you're gonna have a black, have a woman.

I know that this comes full circle.

You know, we said we're gonna put the black out, we're gonna put it all over the National Committee.

It will not work.

I cannot convince you that.

That's just fine.

And Barbara Franklin has one thing that's very good.

She's just terribly enthusiastic when she comes in, you know.

She ramps up the room.

What I really need, basically, is a Julie.

Julie would be like, I mean, somebody like Julie

Christ, that's terrific, but we can't do that.

Maybe we're wrong.

I'm looking at it.

As I said, if the man weren't so old and better, she could do it.

I'm just wondering.

Maybe have your pride.

I'm wondering if you could use that in Armstrong.

Listen to the president.

Let her bring people in.

That's right.

Let her take people around the White House.

Let her, you know, super hostess type, uh,

I know we have to give her a little extra silence, and also, we're going into the break now.

Are you going to push her out of the service?

No.

I think I'll push her over with me.

I'm not sure.

I think the plan was to try to stay in that personnel area, which is what she is great.

But it won't be.

I want to actually have a woman.

Ann Armstrong would be great if she could come as a special assistant.

I just wonder if she's going to do that.

She said that I'd like to have her later.

But if she is, I want her sitting in that meeting.

All right.

I'm going to draw up the meeting committee.

I'm on a Sapphire and a Price and the rest.

I want them to sit in and get the deal.

See, we don't... You just can't have, say, a young fellow like Andrews in trying to pick up the color.

And we know that what you're calling can't happen.

Some of these will pick it up and go out and talk about it.

She has to do that.

She can handle press.

Right?

She might work it around.

She might pick up your relations with the east wing and it might evolve.

Yes, it might evolve.

I don't know, could come in and say, here's the menu, and let me take a look, and then she could go over and she could talk to me.

See, the point is, the great mistake we made is, I looked him over, Alex, come in and say, here's the menu, and I'm busy as hell, or here's, is he in Texas school around here, or whatever, what do you want?

Well, but he asked me about it.

And he takes it over, and then I go home in the evening, and Pat says, well, Alex came over,

I don't want to get into that.

I don't give a shit whether it'll work or not.

I just want to work it out.

See, Alex tells people.

He does not convince them.

Or Alex talked to Lucy, and then Lucy goes up and mentions, or Alex talked, what's that other woman, the older one?

The cop over there, Connie.

Connie.

Alex talked to Connie about this.

And it's your office.

I must not have that relationship.

I've got to have it related.

Connie, you get in.

I'm strong.

Call her and see if she'll be a specialist.

She'll

We'll make the job.

What's a top woman in the White House staff?

Either that or I'll come.

Either that or I take Franklin for it.

I want one woman as a special assistant to the president.

And Bob, the other one, what's his name?

Either one is better than Pat Hitt.

Pat Hitt isn't very smart.

Great.

The other two are both smart.

Agreed.

I think Franklin would be a special assistant.

Yes, she could.

She wouldn't have the class that Armstrong has.

What does it do with Rose?

I don't know.

Leave her where she is.

I don't understand.

She could go right on down when she's finished.

She's got a different role.

She's got to abide with her.

This gal isn't a secretary.

Neither of them are on her secretary list.

Yeah.

You know, he was not to be nearly as good a transportation fellow as this old ranger was.

Do you agree?

Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

I think, I think, I don't know, I don't agree that he would be nearly as good.

There are some pluses he would have in front of the whole town, but because I feel like he'll get a bunch of progress.