Conversation 237-034

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Okay.

Hello, Henry.

Hope you've had a good day out there.

Weather's held up all right now.

Nothing new as far as I can see from this front.

Kennedy was over greeting Johnson, so I haven't been able to get the afternoon reports.

Do you have anything to say?

The major problems that I see, first, did you get my message that I thought that you ought to include?

Yeah, at a late time, you know.

But if you call Mansfield and not Scott, all hell would be closed.

Call him in the morning, right?

He would not.

Mansfield will.

And you want to include both leaders, Ahrens, not Ahrens, but Ford, Howard, of course, Hebert, and Stennis, because they're our friends.

And Goldwater, because he's got to stand up, and that's about it.

You see, that's the point that several people have raised, and you know the reason we can't.

They want me to go on and explain why we're bombing.

Well, the reason we're bombing is to bring them back to the Congress table, but you can't say that, can you?

Did you tell Reagan that, or would you tell him?

Well, that's what I mean.

The point is that the question is raised that they've beaten Warren over the head on the day of June.

One might consult with the leaders, which, of course, we have done.

I told, I gave chapter and verses, but all the leaders have been consulted over a very, very good time.

But the other point is that why we don't go on and explain while we're bombing, well,

We made that decision early on because the moment you say you're bombing for a purpose of getting them back to talk seriously, then they can't come back.

And going on with the high pollutant business, well, they reviewed the talk seriously, so we're going to bomb them so they'll talk seriously.

My God, that's a dead loser.

You can go out and say you're bombing the dominant base.

you're bombing to get your prisoners back or something else, but you cannot say you're going to bomb in order to negotiate.

Nobody will ever buy them.

But on the other hand, how to handle that problem is going to be one of the key ones.

Oh, I agree.

Now, you understand there's enormous pressure building up for

need a brief with congressional leaders when they come back.

And if not, for me to send you up a brief full of rights, a committee, and all that crap, and all that sort of thing.

And, of course, to have any briefings prior, any formal briefings prior to the meetings on the 8th would be an utter damn disaster.

Do you agree?

How are we going to get out of it?

That's what I want you to get across to Mansfield.

Well, screw them.

It's the main thing.

The committee you want to be with.

We're through with them.

They're all headed.

They're all in answers.

We're never checked.

We could be on an informal basis, maybe with the armed services committee.

Keep them in line.

See, we've got to start talking to the Hawks, not the Bursies.

The George Funders.

You see what I mean?

We've got to go to our own strength at this point.

I mean, after all the purses and the fundings, we're all supported by the government.

So for Christ's sake, let them be over there.

Let them quit talking to them.

Follow me for a minute.

The thing is, how we, uh,

If you were asked specifically, why did we, I don't know, what would you say?

What would you say if you were having a conversation?

It's like they're leading a march on Washington.

Poor old Wilson must be turning over his grave.

He was a sort of a stupid fellow in foreign policy in many ways.

Here are his grandsons leading a march on the White House tomorrow.

Yeah, the Indians say they're old.

Why don't we answer the calls in regard to what about all the protests that are being made?

What about having some of the snacks be fixed about the fact that he hadn't been free and all that?

Well, think a bit about what's a critical point to come when you get back.

Why did you bomb him?

As to something you can say, well, I'm not going to discuss that until we meet.

Because that won't work.

That won't work.

Let me say it.

It isn't going to work when you're talking to Mansfield.

That's my point.

You see what I mean?

When you're talking to somebody sophisticated, you can't just say, look, I'm not going to discuss it.

So I just wanted to prepare you for what kind of questions you're going to get.

That is one that will be very high up.

And I'm not worried about it, because I'm not going to answer any questions.

I'm going to be hard-nosed as hell.

I'm not going to see the press or the Congress or anybody for the first week.

Well, I don't want to, but my point is, you're going to be fairly hard on this.

You've got to be prepared for the money.

Why do we bomb?

And you know the reason.

bombed in order to get them back to talk and talk with some chance of success.

But you can't say that you did it for that purpose.

You can say you bombed in order to talk about prisoners, but a specific time.

Do you see my point?

Our position has always been an exchange of prisoners of war, and political prisoners are not prisoners of war.

Well, we don't mind having a bell, so we'll see.

OK, well, have that in mind.

The only other point that I think is raised is the, as I said earlier, is quite a play.

What about the consultation with Congress?

I mean, as I think about it, with all the calls you do with me, I mean, you've seen, you've called Stennis and Goldwater, and you've seen Percy, and you've seen Fulbright.

So what the hell?

I mean, you've virtually seen everybody except

Albert and Landfield, right?

If you talk to Ford, you get it.

You see, that's my fight.

Now that's good, you see.

My fight is, that's what I said to Warren today.

I said, we covered all procedures that were available.

Which is quite true, isn't it?

Of course, they want us to come in and talk to them more, but...

What is it?

In other words, in this case, we're overruling the Congress.

Right.

That's true.

That's why it was a mistake to stop it.

Under the bridge.

It was a good cause at the moment, just didn't work.

Well, anyway, we'll, uh, what about the Chinese?

We get the message yet?

Well, actually, you know, the star at night played Joe and Liza into the game very, very restrained.

I don't think they're that worried about it.

I think they want the bad things settled.

Okay.

Well.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Now, incidentally, one final point.

I guess, uh, I mean, because all of them, and everybody's gone, I have to do these things for myself.

Is that, uh,

It occurred to me when I signed something with regard to who goes up to that Fort Pearson's, you know, that the beginning person on account there could have come in from all those places.

Well, now, obviously, this, and we're working this out here, and so forth.

I remember that I put on a whole, a reception for all of the visiting delegations when Eisenhower

Of course, it was his general, as you understand.

And this is different, but nevertheless, it will be considered the same.

Also, when I had to be galls, I'll be able to put something on.

So it's expected, that's point one.

You don't need to get into what I work on.

The second point is that this will provide an opportunity to reward some and scum others.

And my view is, if he comes, I'll spend an hour with him.

But what I would like to do is to work it out so that I'll take all of the force

and just see people all day long.

You get my point?

But I'm not going to see any of the clowns that have been against us.

Like the Australian comes, he just isn't the same.

And I will not see that son of a bitch from Canada.

Do you understand?

He will not be in.

He just can't work it out.

But I think that will be a very good deal.

I don't know whether poverty will come.

I doubt it would.

But if he comes, it's unsuitable.

quite significant.

I would spend an hour with him, two or three others.

So my view is, well, I don't think it's making a difference.

I want to build it up.

And the other thing is that I saw another shocking memorandum, as you can hear from coming through your office, with regard to the French political situation, indicating that, or at least implying, that we ought to now, because of the possibility of the mid-Iran and the socialist

win and we ought to start playing both sides i said hell no i'm playing poverty to the limit i'm boring all the way we'll go down fighting losing them if necessary and this is going to be understood and i don't want the left wingers and any shot to try to sub something like that by me

Well, they all did well, but I could sense what happened.

The state was saying, well, you know, it's a very intrepid.

We don't know what the political situation is.

Maybe the polls are wrong.

And it looks to me, why not the polls showing that Popper is behind and maybe we can start a lot of play to the socialists.

Stay out with them.

You never play to your enemies.

You understand?

That's my point.

Now, Pompidou at least has behaved himself.

And we're going to find every way, and I wrote on a piece of paper,

It should probably get, you know, get to you through your people.

And it will raise hell and say what I said.

There's nothing to be done for those socialists.

And everything is to be done for Pompidou.

Sure, and embarrass him publicly.

And that's the way it's going to be.

Well, okay.

We'll see you later.

Well, I want to do that.

The thing I want you to do is I don't want to go through this

Well, you'll be there, Dave.

Dave, I want you to bring this personal message to him, that the president is boring, and that if a state visit will help, he will come, and he will say those things will be helpful, but it will hurt, he will not come.

This is cold turkey is out.

Good.

Fine.

Okay.

Fine.

Good.

Okay, everybody.