On January 5, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 7:38 pm to 7:58 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 239-001 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello?
Well, Mr. Martin, I say, any news since I've talked to you?
Ziegler said you were supposed to put the whole thing up.
You know, he gave it out to the press.
He quoted it.
Yeah, he's supposed to have quoted it.
In that way, I said, I'm not going to be optimistic or pessimistic either way.
How to handle something like that with a star, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah, because the actual quote was, I am not going to be, you know, it may be secret, but I didn't hear what I said.
And he said it right what he said.
Yeah.
Because I know he wouldn't have gotten that wrong.
He can't really handle these things like that because they're going to give you a kick.
They're going to give you a kick, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Well, I think all hell should be raised on him on that.
I really think, I think it's got to be done.
Ziegler's got to start getting real tough.
He loves to do it.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
The Senate is still acting up.
I see it.
You know, I agree.
A vote of eight cut off from the 20th.
What in the Christ do they think that does to your negotiating position?
What in the name of God are they going to do with it?
I know, but you know what I mean.
Apart from that, though, which I think we ought to get started.
I don't know, my memory is so lacking in understanding of PR.
Peter just said what I said today to the leaders earlier.
I mean, that says the whole thing, doesn't it?
And don't you, and even if Alex Kelly, he can draw from that.
He knows what to say.
And he can just tell them.
All right.
Yeah, right, right, right.
What I make is this, that our people, Chuck, have got to be a little bit more aggressive about such things.
I don't know.
They all didn't know they were so definite.
They're all there, and they say, well, that's fine.
They don't do a goddamn thing.
They've got to, you know what I mean?
If they make something, it's different.
Why the hell don't the leaders do something?
Why doesn't Bill do something?
You know what I mean?
Instead of just, you know, sitting there laying in their face
That's for damn sure the Democrats know.
They are playing this called partisan lies, and they've got to be brutally attacked for it.
It really is.
It's gotten to the point where they've got to be attacked.
I suppose it doesn't do any good to attack them before the talks on Monday, but Jesus Christ, you know, they really are playing this bloody game.
You know?
I thought it was pretty good, but he...
What's sending her, Link?
You haven't heard from him?
He's probably not.
Well, you ought to give him a call.
And he's probably not getting much on this thing.
It isn't that big in the country, some way.
But I don't know why the hell these guys are boarding this way, then.
That's what I can understand.
They tell me the mail isn't that big, you know.
What in the hell is...
I think part of the problem is that we are very weak on the congressional relations side.
I really do.
That's right.
I know.
That's right.
Yeah.
When I told Hallerman today, I said, what the hell have we got here?
And he said, well...
could make a difference because the Congress stuff is very good anyway.
Meaning that the percentage that they do, but God damn it, it's better to have something out of the nothing.
Well, they say that they don't get a man, but you've got to be confident, too.
Our people really are a sad bunch of sacks.
Right.
Well, I think you ought to have a little talk, John.
Yeah, because I called him, and he was over at the gym before I left, so I didn't reach him.
But I was just going to talk to him a little bit.
Here we are, and what the hell is our need?
What in the Christ do these people do?
And I go over there and they say nothing happened after the breakfast.
Sigler makes sort of a half-assed statement to the press, you know, and that's it.
You know, we could do better than that.
I think we could do better.
They're all too tired, I guess, don't you think?
I know that you are, but I doubt the others ought to be doing something, Jesus Christ.
I know, I know it.
We ought to have an apparatus now, I can see, to club the dam.
I think we may have to, we might have to re-institute.
Despite these Democrats in the Congress, they are acting so goddamn partisan, and you can't get it from Jerry Ford, you can't get it from... Detroit.
Detroit, yeah.
But can he do it on...
Boston's good.
Right.
Yeah.
Of course, the thing is that Bob, I don't think, really knows what went on there.
He doesn't understand how effective it was.
Yeah.
But by God, something was being done.
Right.
That's the point.
We were.
Yeah, that's right.
But you see, you have a half-assed situation where you're leaving the early ones, the Schultz and the Kissinger, Jesus Christ, and all of them think about substance.
They never think about getting it across to the public.
Well, I know that there are substance men in this place, except for Irvington.
He's got a little understanding of things, but...
Discourage them.
You got that?
That's the only statement.
But maybe we'll have to re-examine that.
Of course, we've got with her getting out and so forth, and get that facade out there.
What you need about an aether tech cut fighter is around someplace.
That's what you really get down to.
And without, I mean, Haldeman is too busy with other things.
Haldeman won't do it.
Schultz doesn't understand it.
Ash doesn't understand it.
Kistner doesn't understand it.
You see my point?
Didn't he get a few gunfighters around there?
Number one is a gunfighter, and Clawson is.
Who else we got?
Zegler will do what he's told.
Who else?
Yeah.
All right.
Good.
We're keeping him, aren't we?
Good.
I'll keep everybody.
Everybody that's worth a damn keep.
They can fight.
See, you've got Buchanan, of course.
He's the only one in the research group.
Price and the rest aren't worth a shit.
With his book, I know.
That's a loss for us, I think.
The book, it's not worth that much trouble, but I don't know.
Everybody's busy with other things.
But my first priority can also be to better realize Buchanan was an enormously important contractor.
He produced something.
What the hell does Price produce?
Absolutely nothing.
Price's office.
What does it produce?
Yeah, fine, but what does it produce on the attack side?
You see, that's the thing you've got to tell Paul.
You've got to have somebody on the attack side.
Right.
It's good.
But he can't write it, so you've got to get some people around who can and can't write it.
I don't get to hear all about the outside people impressed.
I already think, though, that, you know, your responsibility to the Senate group, I mean, I love Stone's comments.
They're very interesting.
He doesn't think it's having that much effect on the country.
But either he does.
But hey, let's don't let our little boys sit down here and sort of play substance, reorganization, all that sort of thing, and not fight the real battle, huh?
You get my point?
Right, right.
Right.
As a matter of fact, though, all of a sudden,
David here today to these super leaders.
When you put it in those words, how the hell can you disagree with it?
What's the crisis you want to do?
Do you want to bug out?
Or do you want a peace with honor?
That's what it is.
Do you want to end the war?
Or do you just want to get out?
And you see, Timmons did understand him.
He didn't take her.
Neither one of them really understood the effectiveness.
particularly didn't understand it.
He didn't get the right notes, really.
He told me what he was gonna put out, and I shrugged my shoulders.
He's just doing the best he can, but he doesn't understand.
He missed, for example, the last line.
Do you agree?
Well, but he missed it, didn't he?
Yeah, he didn't use that.
Because, you see, I told you he wouldn't do it because he didn't think it was hot news.
That's what I would have used.
That's right.
Look, I don't take the responsibility, but... That's right.
Well, look, I don't want to hose you, but let me say, you get on.
I mean, Bob's got such enormous worries and responsibilities and so forth, but...
the other hand he's got a quick word about reorganization who's going to be the ambassador and all the rest get the hell onto the real thing and there's one there's a battle now on this issue he's got to drop everything else forget the goddamn inauguration who cares about who's going to be the senator i don't give a damn you know what i mean all that's nothing yeah that's the problem everybody is worrying about things that are not are not are non-sequiturs they're nothing but you agree
Now, in the campaign, we all concentrated in the campaign.
Now we come to this issue, and Bob and the rest have got to get the hell off of their other things and start fighting the Congress, kicking their balls, you know, and you'll win.
And basically, the problem is that we've got a few Congressmen, like tonight, some of the young guys, we were all for you.
We just wish somebody would speak up.
Christ Almighty, the problem is Jared.
What kind of leaders have we got?
No leaders.
They're all whining and bitching about it, but it's Jack's kind of a job, you know, to give Jack an alert.
Oh, really?
And Bob, Bob, and John, and all the rest, really, don't understand this whole thing.
That's right, I know.
That's right.
Now, stand high for our side.
I know, I know, I know, I know.
Try again.
That's right.
And I think we should.
I think we should put it together, add to the White House staff, especially in Christ Almighty, they've got military aides and secret services around in my ears, and nobody that can do a goddamn thing.
That's what burns me up.
I told Bob that, and I said, look, you've got all sorts of secretaries, aides, and the rest, and I said, none of them are worth a damn to me.
That's really true.
Well, we want to build it up too much, because it may fail.
On the other hand, they want to start it, and they want to do it.
It's an inaccurate thing.
I've got Alan Ziegler, who's in charge of URB.
Here he is, he's probably on some precedent.
He doesn't understand the subject.
I really don't.
That kind of a headline is an inaccurate description of what the hell I said.
I didn't say I was on it.
I said I was not optimistic, or I just said, if you'll read it carefully, I said, I'm not going to say that I'm optimistic or aggressive.
I'm simply saying that you're wrong.
Now that is a wrong headline, and Zipper ought to call and revariate something.
If there's one thing he does, make him do that.
All right.
It's Joe Craftman.
Joe Craftman recently.
He starts calling today.
Right.
Right.
I'll just keep the water for now on.
Right.
And it's early.
I want to know his private room, too.
get that done.
But sure, God damn it, we've got to do the FBI if necessary.
The FBI should get to keep the law on its own.
We need to know it.
That's all we want to know.
Of course he talked crap.
You know, God damn what they did.
That's right.
Sunday, Sunday,
Yeah, so he called up Joe Graff on Tuesday.
And Joe Graff then writes an article yesterday that just knocks the bejesus out of it, in which Henry indicated that.
Now, I think Henry ought to be taken on a whole lot of pressure.
Just say, Henry, did you talk to him?
Did you talk to Kraft?
No, no, I want you to ask him.
I said, Joe, Henry, gee, this is a terrible article to turn.
And if he lies on that, I want to know.
It's very important that I know that.
Oh, God, don't have me at night.
Sometime tomorrow, I'll say, I don't want him to be too irritated before he goes to bed.
I'll say, what the hell did anybody in your shop do?
He called him or the crap called him.
I'll be gone at night.
He called me.
I'll be a son of a bitch.
That is unbelievable.
If you're told home, come tomorrow.
Okay.
All right.
It's good that you're checking.
Okay, well, don't let this be too daunting.
As a matter of fact, we're looking pretty good.
If this thing works out, we're going to kill these bastards, but not let them be saved.
And if it doesn't work out, we're going to blame these bastards.
That's what J.
Love's going to say, won't he?
Right.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Okay.