{"conversationCode":"245-005","tapeNumber":245,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-245-005","startDateTime":"1971-04-06T14:59:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-04-06T15:06:00.000Z","startDate":"6-Apr-1971","startTime":"9:59 AM","endDate":"6-Apr-1971","endTime":"10:06 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ford, Gerald R.; Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On April 6, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:59 am to 10:06 am. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 245-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"EOB","recordingDevice":"Old Executive Office Building","latitudeEstimated":38.897567,"longitudeEstimated":-77.039147,"chronCode":1,"chronRelease":"First Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"5-Oct-1999","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 245-005\nDate: April 6, 1971\nTime: 9:59 am - 10:06 am\nLocation: Executive Office Building\nThe President talked with Gerald R. Ford\n[See Conversation No. 42-9]\nHenry A. Kissinger entered at 10:05 am","filename":["245-005.mp3"],"tapeStart":"00:47:35","tapeEnd":"00:53:11","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ford, Gerald R.","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"245-004","nextCode":"245-006","transcript":[{"start":0.22,"end":6.83,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":7.03,"end":8.44,"text":"Hi, Jerry."},{"start":8.46,"end":10.14,"text":"What's the matter with your opposite number?"},{"start":11.84,"end":30.77,"text":"God, when I read the Star last night, I thought she made funny comments."},{"start":30.79,"end":33.39,"text":"I said that she was on the ground and failed the FBI and is not having a chance on another one."},{"start":33.41,"end":34.57,"text":"Not only on no country, but on no country."},{"start":34.59,"end":38.64,"text":"Not even anybody that has ever been able to cross into that Capitol since 1924."},{"start":38.66,"end":39,"text":"She was a burden."},{"start":39.02,"end":39.96,"text":"I'm going to hold over the governor."},{"start":40.31,"end":48.88,"text":"This is the most ridiculous thing, isn't it?"},{"start":48.9,"end":49.68,"text":"But the trouble is, is he not a softie?"},{"start":49.7,"end":50,"text":"Or is he crazy?"},{"start":78.48,"end":86.02,"text":"Well, that's the problem."},{"start":86.03,"end":93.41,"text":"I'm afraid that we'd better not."},{"start":93.43,"end":98.49,"text":"I always wanted to have a meeting at 7 o'clock on the night of the big five."},{"start":98.51,"end":99.09,"text":"How the hell can I tell them?"},{"start":99.11,"end":100.36,"text":"That's, of course, only two hours before, so we can't do much."},{"start":100.38,"end":101.96,"text":"I don't think I can ever tell them anything else."},{"start":106.65,"end":114.42,"text":"I know."},{"start":114.44,"end":117.25,"text":"Well, everything, frankly everything I say is classified because they want to hold the president and become part of the record."},{"start":118.09,"end":130.86,"text":"Well, anyway, I don't know."},{"start":130.88,"end":141.07,"text":"Is this something that you can talk to Carl about and come to him and say, well, in other words, I never would probably meet with you and Carl, but maybe that's an answer."},{"start":141.09,"end":143.61,"text":"I'll meet with you and Carl, and I just don't want to have this all down here, because you can't have it done."},{"start":143.63,"end":146.57,"text":"I mean, with Carl, you agree he isn't everyone we know."},{"start":146.59,"end":146.69,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":147.96,"end":172.44,"text":"Well, all right, I'll leave it to you to talk about it, Jerry, and, uh... Well, it is."},{"start":172.46,"end":172.96,"text":"I'll tell you what to do."},{"start":172.98,"end":173.46,"text":"Uh, why don't you, uh..."},{"start":173.48,"end":173.86,"text":"I'll call you back."},{"start":173.88,"end":174.36,"text":"If I'm not mine, let me."},{"start":174.38,"end":174.88,"text":"I'll tell you what to do."},{"start":174.9,"end":176.56,"text":"But if you find, if you find Carl, then what we'll do is we'll tell you, Carl,"},{"start":177.02,"end":180.7,"text":"and from the House."},{"start":187.86,"end":192.07,"text":"Just that we want only two from the House, and I'll have only Mike and Scott from the Senate."},{"start":192.09,"end":193.37,"text":"After all, in a sense, the Speaker is a part of it."},{"start":193.89,"end":215.7,"text":"And it would be like having the president approach him and leave it at Dave Russell for recess."},{"start":215.72,"end":216.44,"text":"But we don't have that element here."},{"start":216.46,"end":218.1,"text":"So I think if I could have you and Carl, I'd feel perfectly free to talk any time."},{"start":218.12,"end":218.6,"text":"And I just remember you."},{"start":218.62,"end":218.96,"text":"That's what I do."},{"start":218.98,"end":221.04,"text":"But I don't feel like talking to him this long."},{"start":221.06,"end":221.5,"text":"I mean, he's my chief."},{"start":221.52,"end":222.49,"text":"I need to talk to him."},{"start":222.5,"end":223.85,"text":"Well, we'd like to have you down at 7 o'clock tomorrow night again."},{"start":224.2,"end":245.24,"text":"because there is something great about it that may not develop, but you don't want to negotiate it, but I don't, but I just want to give you a little feeling, you know?"},{"start":245.26,"end":246.08,"text":"But I would never do it if Bob was there."},{"start":246.1,"end":246.22,"text":"Right?"},{"start":246.24,"end":247.08,"text":"I'd have no problem with the money to say,"},{"start":247.38,"end":266.13,"text":"All right, but I'm glad you... What do the other members think of this?"},{"start":266.15,"end":266.83,"text":"Understand, we all know who it is."},{"start":266.85,"end":267.31,"text":"Oh, so forth and so on."},{"start":267.33,"end":268.61,"text":"And he's got to make up his own mind about the retirement thing."},{"start":268.63,"end":268.89,"text":"We know that."},{"start":268.91,"end":270.61,"text":"But on the other hand, gee, God, you can't just damn the whole FBI for being gestapo."},{"start":270.63,"end":271.1,"text":"That's just ridiculous."},{"start":271.12,"end":275.28,"text":"Would the Democrats shock some of that?"},{"start":275.3,"end":275.4,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":282.21,"end":299.33,"text":"I wish I was never going to get on a tube."},{"start":299.35,"end":299.47,"text":"I see."},{"start":299.49,"end":300.81,"text":"All right."},{"start":300.83,"end":300.93,"text":"Okay."},{"start":300.95,"end":301.81,"text":"Now, I'll tell you, this is an L.A. harbor."},{"start":301.83,"end":306.4,"text":"You go, you're flying around, you go over there, you just pipe down on a couple of other horses and just wiggle after they hear what I have to say."},{"start":309.35,"end":327.02,"text":"Well, the whole point is that something's not going to help the crew."},{"start":327.04,"end":328.22,"text":"I mean, we know there's probably 25 or something like that."},{"start":328.24,"end":329.5,"text":"But the main point is that it's going to go on for a long time."},{"start":329.52,"end":330.34,"text":"And you were in a very good morning show."},{"start":330.36,"end":332,"text":"I didn't see it, but I heard it was really good."},{"start":332.02,"end":332.67,"text":"So you put it right in the room."},{"start":332.69,"end":334.95,"text":"Keep kicking on it until you know where."},{"start":334.97,"end":335.07,"text":"Okay."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Representative Gerald Ford discuss strategy for managing sensitive legislative meetings, specifically seeking to limit attendance to key congressional leaders like Carl Albert to maintain confidentiality. Nixon expresses frustration with political criticism of the FBI and explores ways to bypass public disclosure concerns by restricting the group size for upcoming discussions. The conversation concludes with a plan for Ford to coordinate the meeting logistics while Nixon emphasizes his desire to share confidential insights without the risks associated with larger, record-heavy briefings.","topics":["Congressional relations","Legislative strategy","FBI","Confidentiality","Executive-Legislative relations","Gerald Ford"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T11:30:18.383Z"},"topicSlugs":["congressional-relations","legislative-strategy","fbi","confidentiality","executive-legislative-relations","gerald-r-ford"],"audioDurationSec":335,"audioFiles":[{"file":"245-005.mp3","bytes":13414191,"durationSec":335.21,"bitrate":320136,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:36.206Z","transcriptGapSeconds":119,"transcriptGapShare":0.35,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/245-005.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/245-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/245/conversation-245-005","catalogNaId":417183227,"catalogUrl":"https://catalog.archives.gov/id/417183227","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}