Nixon, Haldeman & Dean on Vietnam War and Vice Presidency

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Haldemanuh, get Laird, uh, so I'll call him, you know. I talked to Timmons [cough] to me to get his end up. He did a lot for MacGregor's. And, uh, yeah I can't do those. Bill said that Ellender's been,

Haldemanbeen good on the war, and soft on Russia, you know. But, uh, all right, been pretty well with us on the war and started being very good, actually. And, uh, well, by

HaldemanHe thinks you ought to have him in all the time. You ought to make out the Big Six including him. All right. Well, we always had Russell, so, on the basis of President pro tem, which would

NixonYeah, we could having having him and Mahon, and uh

HaldemanThe President pro tem, you see, is the same rank as uh Speaker. The Speaker, the President pro tem is Senate, fourth in the line of command, through the sector.

NixonYeah. President dies, the Vice President dies, Speaker's next, President pro tem is next.

HaldemanAll right, tell Timmons to go ahead go ahead and add uh Senator Ellender. The President wants uh him to be at uh 7:00 meeting.

HaldemanI got the impression that we got him. Okay.

HaldemanFine, thanks. Henry your date during the break? Henry's briefing press [unintelligible]

NixonGood. That's fine. About the hour of speech, something about

Nixon[unintelligible]

Haldeman[unintelligible]

NixonIt's so hard to totally [unintelligible] not sure about it.

HaldemanFinch, [unintelligible] Rumsfeld saying [unintelligible]

Nixon[unintelligible] you guys think you need [unintelligible]

HaldemanWell, my bet is you think they'd call you or something if they stayed just for the President's position, well.

NixonRogers, I mean, Rogers is the one guy that definitely does do that. The one thing I want to tell you about Rogers, though [unintelligible] I mean, I'm just telling I'm not going to have him any conference [unintelligible]

HaldemanThey may have they may be on They may have called. Well, it gets back to the fact that,

Nixonfirst, I want to organize the hard core House and Senate guys, so we've got a nucleus of guys that are going to cheer and not just whine and bitch and say what they want to do.

NixonThe second point is, that on the Cabinet, [unintelligible] publish tonight, they're just not going to be called, period.

HaldemanCon- Connally's in turn, say, they there's awful when you think about that look like they don't get them. Connally, yes, he's on.

NixonWell, that's [unintelligible] I shouldn't call Congress back, anyway. Right. I mean, they're uh, I'm not going to do it. You want them, anyway. What it is, is that uh,

NixonI don't like this business of these people that jump on, you know, they only want to get they think they're going on. Like people that's going to stand up, by God, and they [unintelligible] defend us. We've got to prove it. They're not men.

NixonUnderstand, I don't blame anybody for this. Just the kind of men we've got to work with, God damn, weak, selfish bastards. And, certainly, it's public. Public is.

NixonRotten, [unintelligible] Hell, I don't know why in the hell, we haven't got five Democrats that that'll even speak up. But the rest of the people, you know, it's amazing. I saw Stans last night.

NixonLook at old Stans, he's soft. Strong man. And, they're not going to need him except for the house and have his part, the pops.

NixonShultz. How soft can he get? Romney. I'm going to haul him in and throw him out.

NixonI do not think, let me put it this way, I don't think you can get any, on any spirit from that whole crowd. You want to talk that, Cabinet. What's basically [unintelligible] we go again. And, actually Mitchell, Mitchell knows what he knows he doesn't have to call.

NixonThe rest, forget it. I mean, let them all do their jobs. In other words, Romney does his job, Laird does his job, Richardson does his job, and all the rest.

HaldemanYeah, but the thing I get Rogers' best performers, he was in here today with uh you know before a speech before a press conference, always afterwards. He'll call whether it be night, damn, they'll always call.

NixonWell, he was thoughtful, as he doesn't never wants to bother you. Oh, he knows it's hard. Tell the President good luck. Good luck. Yeah.

HaldemanSure.

NixonWell, maybe he's one, but uh but Henry's point is he's, you know, of course, Henry was hurt, too. No businessman, no you've been overseeing the [unintelligible]

NixonAll want more guts. Well, they got to be running. Running the business can be, all these assholes have become into Florida and everything else. You know, you just don't know you know honest.

HaldemanThey have volunteered. They would know. Voluntarily call the press. They'll call the press.

NixonMy point is that I uh I think that Henry raised the point that I mean, his point was that, where where would we where are we going to get the spirit, you know, for the He says, you you always have to wait to act to do something.

NixonName, of God. Are we on the edge, now, to the point maybe he's right? Maybe he's overreacting.

HaldemanI knew his his that's his culture. You like not to talk to anybody tonight, just like Rogers.

NixonI shut them off. I don't want to hear from them all. I I don't think maybe Connally, if you so choose to talk to. They were all so, so What does Agnew outside is, remember that sweet, courageous gentleman.

HaldemanOh. Knock that off. But whether you're right or wrong, that's what really is. I don't I don't mean dumb loyalty to everything, a bunch of always the John Birch type, and stuff, that you know he just takes it, and comes down, "Hey."

HaldemanWell, I mean, smart loyalty. The guy that's smart, and says, "By God, I'm going to stick with him, because he's the man."

NixonNow that's what Connally, of course, that is.

HaldemanGood. Shake. Good. Good shake. Getting fired. They're so good. It's one of the better, uh

HaldemanAnd then the other thing they have urges to go along. He sat on price, the all three, while you made that speech, and I had letters, [cough] price from A to Z.

Haldeman[unintelligible] and the words. Nothing into him. You leave out this, that won't make.

HaldemanWait. Of course, they started doing that, and keep looking at it, and saying that's He worked so lovely. Everybody rewrites words, so always a muddle.

NixonOh, he says, said said said I did tell him I don't think the nice, but they're basically, they're rather weak men.

NixonYeah, so what? Richardson. We got three big men in the Cabinet. Mitchell is a big man. Connally is a big man. And, we think,

HaldemanLaird's a big man in the Cabinet, Bob.

NixonLaird's has the capability, but he's not He's too soft. The fact is, he's quick. This the brain, it is smart. Also, look, he doesn't really have the guts. I think he doesn't.

HaldemanThat's see for someone else. He'll make the decisions, of course.

NixonYeah, on the basis of what will go best in the Congress, or what point fixes. He worries too much. He's uh, Mitchell does Mitchell doesn't have the The public He's not much of a public man.

HaldemanHe's never going to play that.

NixonHe's sound. And, then, he comes the first two [unintelligible] dead.

NixonPoint is, Rogers is good for that. Just you've got to have, you've got to do it, though. The way we can handle, well I don't well we got to have him do something. I don't know what the Christ he can do.

NixonUnless you're going to resign before See uh, you know, Agnew might, unless he's sick, retire the job or decide to do something else, wants to build uh, own television network, and so forth. That would be great if you could get somebody to buy CBS and have Agnew run it.

HaldemanIf you wanted If you wanted Agnew to resign,

Haldemanfirst of all, he'd be he would be perfectly happy to, if he could save face, and he's got the opportunity.

HaldemanTie up, for instance, with Bob Hope, and go into television area, both get into the cable TV business and all that shit. Maybe he'd be glad to do that, or, you know,

NixonDon't try and tell him anything like that. That'll change mind you about it. I told you if you see it with what went on to uh, I told you I'm done on that side, and that I'm

Haldeman[unintelligible]

Nixonalmost certain to get one seat over there, and will help in another, I think. More than that's what, that's what the business community is hoping.

NixonThe way to see, here's the really the only way, really, that I think you could come off on Vice President. Agnew resigns Vice President.

HaldemanAnd then you appoint Agnew resigns Vice President?

NixonAll right, suppose we do the following. Once somebody starts to check the uh check the uh what do you call it, uh uh got to check the new uh

HaldemanUh no, is Crope there or one of those boys still on that committee?

NixonDean. Dean, Dean would know. Yeah, no, no, I'll tell, I'll get somebody else. I'll get his place.

NixonYeah. Yeah, oh, see, that's the way the law was written. You had to find somewhere to find a new Vice President. The President appoints he, how the hell else you're gonna get him?

HaldemanUh Congress approves him. Geez, if he's all there, if he's appointing his Vice President-

NixonCongress or Senate?

HaldemanCongress. The whole Congress.

NixonApproves.

HaldemanI thought it was.

NixonApproval.

HaldemanWell, still at that, Congress would have to be done, you see?

NixonYeah. I think that's, I think you see, if you've done it, then it's, has pride that the convention nominate. And then at least, the person's hard to process.

NixonBut if I appointed Connally, and then after I appoint him-

Operator[unintelligible]

HaldemanYeah.

NixonJohn, did that constitutional amendment on presidential succession, that's that uh passed, I mean, is is now a law?

DeanYes, sir.

NixonWould you uh What is the situation? Because I have to uh write a darn gosh speech paper. And uh I uh I wanted to find out uh is is the uh If in case of the I know what happens in the case of the of the

Nixonthe President. But if in case of the in the case of the Vice President should die, uh is that, the President appoints and approved by the Congress? Is that who I remember?

Dean[unintelligible]

NixonWhy don't you go check the memo, call me back. I want to know what happens in the event

Nixonthe Vice President either is incapacitated, or resigns,

Nixonin case of the to clear up this whole question. My recollection was, when I was told, the President appoints. Because I, I recall when they asked me what ought to be done,

Nixonyou remember, I was question party convention thing at all, be directed.

NixonI mean I said I couldn't see any other way to do it. The pre- the Vice President had to be the President's man. Do you remember, they debated whether to have a congressional election or not, and I said no, no, the President's got to point him.

DeanRight.

NixonFine. Call me back.

HaldemanIf he's a big hero in a month,

Haldemanthat's easy. Is that?

NixonYou see my point? Damn right. Sure would be.

HaldemanThen the latter part of this year

Haldemangets her on the up point.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanYou just tell him he has to reason. What is his reason? Well, the most valid he could give,

Haldemanwhat's he going to do? I I think he's got some ideas of what he wants to do on that. I think he would find a very willing coke conspirator in that.

NixonYou see Bob, I mean, have you given the court my other nomination for the court?

HaldemanHe wouldn't be able to get through the court. That's my problem.

NixonVery much afraid we wouldn't. It would raise holy hell in the country, the court.

HaldemanAnd he recognizes that. Would one though, would you want to go through the torture of the Vice Presidency again? And if he has found that he likes,

Haldemanand and, I'm sure this to be a fact, that that he likes hobnobbing with Frank Sinatra, Bob Hope, and the big- the big money and

NixonHe likes it.

Haldemanthe fast crowd and uh the golf courses and pretty houses.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanAnd there's no problem. Moving into that because he would move out and into a hell if he wanted to go into law practice or if he wanted to

Haldemango into corporate thing of some kind. He can make himself damn good money.

HaldemanStay publicly inactive for a year, which he'd like to do. Be better off for us to have a player to have a figure out there who's in. There would be no question who cleared his speeches, whether you were or anything at all.

NixonThe only problems is, the only problem is, will he get an audience if he wasn't Vice President?

HaldemanWell, they say he wouldn't, but I just wonder.

HaldemanI just wonder.

NixonHard to get.

HaldemanHe gets now close on anything he wanted.

NixonHe does?

HaldemanAmen.

NixonAnybody that might happen to give that amount of money? But let me tell you what I think is the problem.

HaldemanLook,

Nixongot to get Hoover out before, before he's forced out. Now, with Agnew,

Nixonwe need to conduct bloody a battle.

NixonSome people say, "We'll have a bloody battle about him, not about yourself." But it'll reflect on us. And then uh we have a hell of a battle about Agnew as the Vice President,

Nixonall that sort of thing. He's so up to 50% approval or something. I know he does, I know he does, but

Nixonhis opposition here to me is strong, the hatred of his of him is violent. Now that's just the difference. You see my point?

HaldemanOkay.

NixonAnd uh and the hatred of me is not, I mean, I'm quite aware of it. The hatred I got the war over with, the hatred nobody is going to love me, and I don't give a damn if they do. But people are not going to hate me. Well, with Agnew, if we get the war over with, they're still going to hate his guts,

Nixonbecause he doesn't, you know-

HaldemanWell, the dislike of you is by people we can't get over, no matter what. The hatred of Agnew

Haldemanis partially winnable.

NixonOne of them why, I mean, you're right. Yeah.

HaldemanA lot of people who will not vote for, who are undecided now, who will not vote for you if Agnew is your Vice President. I think they're through. It's double,

NixonNow his polls, his polls may not show that up, either.

HaldemanNo, they don't. But I think I think by the time they make the record, they'll go just like Stevenson tried to do to Eisenhower on you.

NixonYeah. Right.

HaldemanThey'd go all out on that damn thing. But you see, they didn't work it with me,

Nixonbecause, basically, I was just too darned clever for them. And also, I was not You weren't that You weren't that I was not that much in the limelight.

HaldemanCorrect.

NixonFrankly, let's put it, most of the stuff on me was made up basically.

NixonWith Agnew, he's asked for so much of it.

NixonI don't mean that A lot of, I agree with him 80% of the time, but goddamn, the other 20% of the time, I don't, and And also, if you're in a second term situation, in the second term, people look there for the possibility of death of the President.

HaldemanA whole lot of presidents have died, they're 61, 62, 60- Well, see, you'll be at the age where people are starting to look at that. Quite bothered. Because Eisenhower had his heart attack, 64.

NixonEveryone thinks of that. Johnson had his about that age, you remember.

HaldemanRight.

NixonAnd they'll they'll look at the man, no matter what your health record is. And they know that uh this is just this is they know what a man's been through, and they're going to say, uh the actuarials are that, well, you know, they all hold up the cholesterol, and etc. And there's always that possibility. I can't worry.

HaldemanThe beauty of Connally, of course, is that he would be able to hold on to most of the people who would be disturbed by dumping Agnew.

NixonA hell of a lot. Hell of a lot. And he'd hold all of the South.

HaldemanThat's it. Except you would call on us the South could be, by the- But Connally's building a lot, Every time Connally goes out-

NixonIncidently, did you get him Meet the Press or not, or not worth it?

HaldemanI shouldn't want to go. No point. Well, Rogers still may do it, but we have to figure out he wants that. But where my view now is not to have him go on. It's a waste of time. We got

HaldemanWe've got uh Klein,

HaldemanKlein on uh one of them, and Scott on another. That's enough. And the head of Blue Cross is scheduled to be on Meet the Press, which

NixonSee, that's exactly what you want.

HaldemanGreat. And there'll be no competition. And it's Easter Sunday, there isn't going to be any audience anyway.

NixonRight.

HaldemanAll you're doing is making a little news print for Monday paper, and Herb and Hugh will do that.

NixonAnd they'll be better.

HaldemanI think, didn't want to put, you know, if we had Mcgovern going on or something like, then you'd want to be with someone who's not here for torch justice.

NixonBetter off not to have it then.

HaldemanRight. If it's a if it's the Blue Cross guy,

Haldemanmarket went down 5.76 on 22 million shares.

Nixon49?

HaldemanWent to a new, went to a high. Hurt, wasn't it, started slipping from the high.

NixonMay drop with some.

HaldemanJust a profit taking, but because of discount, I think-

NixonFunny discount. The point is that so many of them were they eat each other to get a portion.

HaldemanYeah. Then they'll be disappointed if there's no withdrawal number given.

NixonYep.

HaldemanYeah.

NixonHello? Yeah, John.

NixonGood. I get your point. Thank you. Thank you. That was exactly right. And only takes a majority

Nixonof both houses of Congress. Simple majority. Makes a lot of sense, you see what I mean. That's the way to handle the thing.

HaldemanYeah. That'll bomb, Chotiner. But but Bob, the lighter this situation it goes only to be handled by Bob. Well, let's see. Let's see you have the summer the first part of September.

HaldemanYou get a lot of stuff turned in by then, Rogers. Well, let's see, then you'd come back somewhere in, you know, early October sometimes the vice-president comes up early. The end of the year, year end, it's about the good time for that. December 31st, or as of January 20th,

Haldemanthe end of the year, year end, it's about a good time for that.

Haldemannot on a scandal basis, uh, you know, and not certainly uh refusing another term uh because he is moving into another deal and wants to get into it now. Right. And because he wants to serve you in your campaign for reelection

Haldemanas a private citizen.

HaldemanI think he could work his, you know, together for himself. The way it would have to be done, so it won't like Rogers is being pushed out,

NixonRogers himself is the one who's got to make this public. Now, he's got to see the President. He says, "uh I am uh uh uh uh uh uh uh [unintelligible]" What makes me think he might do it, is his attitude of putting it bluntly.

NixonHe was a little uh queasy about being put in the bowling, but he- he wants blood. What he has been through to date, will be nothing compared to what they'll put him through before he gets the nomination.

NixonI believe that.

HaldemanAnd one heartbeat from the presidency.

NixonA man who is 60, 59. He will be 60, when he starts the term. Uh has a heart attack, the whole business, you know what I mean. Spiro Agnew. That won't be quite hopeless.

HaldemanOh, you don't even go down that way.

NixonHell. They'll say, "Is this, you want this, man?" They'll run against Agnew. You can be sure of hell, if I look good, they'll run against Agnew, see my point?

NixonAnd little polls will run

NixonThey- they did that with Eisenhower. Nothing could have done that, but the point was that I was so- Another thing too is, if I am more closely identified with Eisenhower than Agnew is with this. I was good,

Nixonyou know what I mean? And everybody thinks Agnew is sort of off on his own anyway. That he would be different.

HaldemanRight.

NixonRight? Whereas in my case, I was sort of the alter ego of Eisenhower, and a younger, uh, the guy is an active president, especially the strong 38 to 40-year-old vice president.

Haldeman[unintelligible] I mean the Dem- Democrats could cheat, could start registration or the free lunch, the thing to see this them- the party. I did fight fighting that they'd be nominated by And that by the coming out of in due time,

Haldemanhe'll have to make the decision Rogers. You could call him, say, "Yes, I, I feel served you well, but

Nixon[unintelligible]

Haldemanand uh all a lot of burdens, Democrats, and that being a little less older small uh drought going on.

Nixondesperation If you're gonna have a- You're gonna have a water high point, and things you're gonna be low and that sort of thing. It'd be down to two anyway.

HaldemanI didn't expect it ever to be that way, after all, he always could fight a chance, but it was only quite a chance that they could fight the fruit.

HaldemanIt might, oh well, but you're gonna have some flips somewhere. No matter how bad they protest, it's have to be.

NixonWell, this this uh this poll of ours, you know, this was uh really a surprise to me. I thought we would go up, my guess was and I just uh tell you what I thought. I already picked a number, I thought we would go 41.

NixonI thought we would go up, I- I figured the undecided, however, would break out. I didn't I thought the uh opposed would stay at 36.

NixonNope, 36, and maybe go up a couple of points, and I wrote 38 down because I thought he might be 27 people.

NixonWhat I thought that we would go up about uh 6 points. It would be 48, 38. 48, 38 is the number I took down. That's what I expected.

NixonNow this thing's- it could have been quite a ba- quite a blow quite a blow up. I didn't think we could back to 51. Uh or 50 or wherever we were.

HaldemanAll, the other thing we have to bear in mind, Bob.

NixonGallup also included the last weekend of March, which nothing else we've had, see, we had we had four after the last weekend of March.

HaldemanNo. Gallup's poll was taken, his 50/37, was the weekend before that, right?

NixonSo, the 41 I had, I had so, the drop from 51, our 51 also was taken 2 weeks before the last weekend of March. See, it was taken 2 weeks a week before Gallup's, right?

HaldemanYeah, sure. I had a word about it, that's right.

NixonSo, we were 51/36 on that poll. In between, we had the bad weekend of Laos. Now we had the Calley thing, which dropped us to 41. So, I assumed that four of I assumed that the bad weekend in Laos probably knocked us down three or four points in any event. I thought Calley probably knocked us the rest of the way.

HaldemanWell, the Calley thing surged itself, so-

NixonThe Calley thing, I won. Therefore, that may have mended it some.

HaldemanIt just had to have an ominous effect, that's all there is to it. Because it washed out the last weekend in Laos, you get my point? Yeah, yeah, it did. You've got that down,

Haldemanwhere you had 53/36?

NixonWe come back on Friday with that because of Laos, uh because of what's coming. I think it must have been, you know, the way they asked the question. If they ask the question, "Do you approve of the Calley?" then, "Do you approve of the president?" That's a bad way to hit. If they asked the question always, "If you approve of, uh the job..." Well, then that's a good shake.

HaldemanWell it is. What was the number? 53?

Nixon54.

Haldeman54/34.

NixonA hell of a week, isn't it?

HaldemanYeah.

NixonWell, remember tonight, unless somebody calls, I don't want,

HaldemanI wouldn't want, uh-huh.

Nixonlet's spread the word. Remember the talk tonight, chuck it, you know, we don't want anybody, uh uh rustling in to catch him after the speech, right?

HaldemanYeah.

HaldemanThat's a sweet, good time, 9:24.

NixonGot all the people [unintelligible] [snort]

Nixonsteps down. The rest of you just take the calls and be nice to them. Not too damn nice to catch

NixonWhat time is the first meeting tomorrow morning? Kissinger said,

HaldemanAt uh women's briefing.

NixonA what?

HaldemanWomen's briefing.

NixonYeah. That's over at the house, so you can just stay over there.

HaldemanWell, yeah, the 9:00 thing, you don't have to do anything about that. That's turned over to the dears.

NixonOkay, well, I will not see you then, until tomorrow morning. Okay, good luck.

HaldemanFine, Bob.

NixonGive him hell. I think we've got got that. The close, I think is going to be impressive as hell.

NixonFine. You'll see commentators uh banging away. In terms of uh of the fact it wasn't much and it was disappointing. Uh that's what all the Democrats are going to say, and so the public now. So, our guys, if we've got any guys left, well, we have a few, and uh have got to get up and say, "Right. We're behind the president. Right speech. Back the president." That's all. Yeah, right?

HaldemanYes, sir.

NixonWe'll do it.

Nixon, Haldeman & Dean on Vietnam War and Vice Presidency

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Nixon, Haldeman & Dean on Vietnam War and Vice Presidency

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Also recorded on April 7, 1971

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